SGU, by far the most underrated series.

[Deevil]

Gatefan,

My point is that Ulysses is consider a classic because it does things differently. Therefore, I find it hard to beleive that any form of Art can be judged objectively. Hell, Kim Stanley Robinson's new book 2312 is doing some creative things with standard narrative structure. Art is very difficult to look at objectively.

I don't entirely disagree with you, yet I so do (hows that for confusion). You can't judge whether or nit you like something objectively, you can judge and/or discuss how a text is structured. How that structure works or doesn't work in what is being created, or attempting to be stated. That is objective, or should be.

Circumventing structure is not a bad thing, doing things differently, telling a different narrative. Creating a new way to film, an experimental piece... But some of these things don't get their message across, and not because people are to stupid to get it, bu simply because the created missed the mark.

In the case of SGU specifically, they weren't reinventing the wheel. They weren't using a different storytelling technique that had never been used before. They were trying a very traditional, serialised narrative and they fell short in some of the requirements of that structure.

[KEK]

Hmm what would you like to hear?
That the characters do not coninuously grow?
That for every step forward in thier personalities there are steps backwards?
Take Chole or Eli for example.
In some episodes they hit an "epiphany moment", yet in the very next episode, that growth seems to be lost? (much as what happened in SGA with Mckay)
Difference is, SGA is 22 arguablely *stand alone* eps, whereas SGU is supposed to be a narrative. As a continuous narrative, higher standards apply to characterization and continuity. What I forgive in, umm..... "bubblegum scifi" I will NOT is a serialized narrative.

What I'd like to hear are some examples and some reasoning behind them. I don't think it's too much to ask. You can't make the assertion that these faults are there, and then just expect everyone to take your word for it without backing up your argument.

ROTFLMFAO!!!
Did you HONESTLY play that card after all the "people just don't get it" dross you have been pushing for 2 years??

I haven't pushed that, that's just the way you seem to have chosen to interpret it, making any argument I make conveniently much easier to dismiss I'm sure.

Explain within a structure that ignores personal perception why SGU is "so good"
Every impartial measuring stick that is applied to SGU shows it to be a failure, why is it so good?

I've never argued that SGU is objectively good, or indeed "objectively" anything, quite the opposite, in fact.

[psl1]

Umm, Have you ever attended an English class?
Both Dee and I are talking about *scriptwriting*, nothing else.

So are you trying to be insulting or does it come naturally. I know of what you both speak of, we suffered through it in many classes. At the end of the day its just another fallible & failed human attempt to communicate. Artists learned this a long time ago. We refer to it as "The Bankruptcy of Language" and that includes Film language too. THERE IS NO STRUCTURE other than what man impose in a vain but valiant attempt to communicate. There are no meanings to these ‘words’ other than what we agree them to mean at that time. Then you try and translate that into another culture and you will see just how utterly F#$%ed up it all becomes.

I would suggest to you again that these mechanisms you speak of and try to use are by-products of industry attempts to systematize the medium into a formula [equation] to control it for profit motive. It has nothing really to do with the ‘work’ as art. At every point that something new appears someone has broken these rules you speak of to get there.

[Deevil]

psl1: I'd happily engage in a philosophy debate with you elsewhere, but given that we are talking within a structure (the English language) and using it to communicate, I'd say the point on structure has been confirmed.

And yes, different countries have different languages, which is probably why eastern horror movies are considered by many scarier. This has a lot to do with how we read the screen, which is closely based to how we read a book... But that's really by the by. The truth is if all artists freewheel it as you suggest, there will be no meaning or understanding. Those artists who do freewheel do it with purpose, with understanding and meaning and when done well the meaning is more be powerful because it is different, because it shocks and awes and because it's done for that purpose.

[psl1]

Actually the point that’s being made is that in spite of all these short comings, this show actually works. For me I still can't bring myself to watch SG1 and SGA. They are just to lame for me but SGU actually works ,rules or not. Infact that is one of the ways you define great work- that it works in spite of the rules. You are going to have to accept that these scripting rules that you live by are at best transitory in nature.At best you are going to have to play catch up to keep up with us.

I spoke with my son who is a script writer and he confirmed my suspicions. These rules are industry generated to develop formulae to try to mass produce quality. The rules are only valid until someone breaks them and makes it work in the medium of choice.

In game design those games that break these rules become the breakthrough games that everyone wants to play and everyone keeps. Funny thing is those games also often are not big sellers because they are only really appreciate by the aficionados in the field. A niche market.

For anyone who wants to examine stream of consciousness in other mediums look at music. Artist like Bob Dylan, David Byrne , Peter Gabriel , U2 , Jethro Tull & YES etc have all used it successfully. Hell Even Cream’s "tales of Brave Ulysses" is stream of consciousness and it works!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8hLc_nqx8g

I would let it all go if not for the fact that this type of industry formulization of the medium & the genre have suffocated and killed the originality in Syfi in the past. They will do it again.

[Gatefan1976]

Actually the point that’s being made is that in spite of all these short comings, this show actually works.

The show works *for you* and thats cool, as I said before.

For me I still can't bring myself to watch SG1 and SGA. They are just to lame for me but SGU actually works ,rules or not. Infact that is one of the ways you define great work- that it works in spite of the rules.

It did not work, sorry, but it didn't.

You are going to have to accept that these scripting rules that you live by are at best transitory in nature.At best you are going to have to play catch up to keep up with us.

So, the argument now becomes "SGU was too revolutionary for everyone else?"

I spoke with my son who is a script writer and he confirmed my suspicions. These rules are industry generated to develop formulae to try to mass produce quality. The rules are only valid until someone breaks them and makes it work in the medium of choice.

I can agree with that actually.

In game design those games that break these rules become the breakthrough games that everyone wants to play and everyone keeps. Funny thing is those games also often are not big sellers because they are only really appreciate by the aficionados in the field. A niche market.

Umm
Everyone wants to play and keep = a Niche market??
No.

For anyone who wants to examine stream of consciousness in other mediums look at music. Artist like Bob Dylan, David Byrne , Peter Gabriel , U2 , Jethro Tull & YES etc have all used it successfully. Hell Even Cream’s "tales of Brave Ulysses" is stream of consciousness and it works!!!

Weather I happen to like any of those artists is irrelavent, what is relavent is that they were/are succesful. I can't stand Michael Jackson's music, but to say he was not a talented performer and musician would be foolish. My personal like or dislike simply does not matter.

I would let it all go if not for the fact that this type of industry formulization of the medium & the genre have suffocated and killed the originality in Syfi in the past. They will do it again.

Again, this is not what I am talking about. You are talking about a *method* such as "cop procedurals", I am talking even before that structure is even considered.

[Deevil]

SGU was far from a revolutionary production. It actually wrote from a pretty old school serial. It wasn't anything new, didn't do anything differently. It just didn't create this old school 'world' in a way that was also fresh. It built on cliche, and that probably would have been okay if they didn't take themselves so seriously.

As for your son the scriptwriter, he is right and he is wrong. The question is whether someone is writing something niche or writing something universally mainstream. People write niche stuff all the time, and hey *effectively* mess with the rules of narrative and film structure. Structure and rules exist even when broken. In the case of SGU they targeted a mainstream audience, not a niche one, and in that regard they failed.

I would let it all go if not for the fact that this type of industry formulization of the medium & the genre have suffocated and killed the originality in Syfi in the past. They will do it again.

Don't blame structure for that. Originality exists in all structure. Structure is just the building blocks that necessitate a strong, weather proof building. The architect can create anything they like once hey have a strong foundation, assuming that the client (network and studio) want to buy it, that the builders can build it at the budget, and that it is intriguing enoug to keep people looking. Independant productions have far more leeway in answering a these questions.

Structure isn't some kind of industry misnomer that will destroy the creative world. A lot of the structure wih have in writing was built by people such as Socretes and been expanded on. Structure doesn't stagnant creativity, but it does help mold it and visa versa. But without understanding the foundations, messing with those building blocks can cause the finished product to collapse.

In the end, I very much doubt we are going to agree on this topic. But thanks for the interesting ideas you've put forward. I appreciate that!

[Dale Volker]

I had never even heard of SG1 and SGA before I watched SGU. I started watching SGU about half way through the 1st season because there was nothing decent on TV that night and I instantly fell in love. I then went out and bought the entire series when it was over and plan to eventually start watching SG1 and SGA. Stargate Universe is what gave me the love of Sci Fi and I have gone on to enjoy other shows such as Star Trek The next generation and Voyager. The ending of SGU was to me was bittersweet as I thought it was one of the most beautiful endings I'd ever seen but Eli was my favourite character and I couldnt bear the thought he might die.

I'm counting down till 2014, I still have hope.

[Skiznot]

I know I'm in the smallest minority ever here, but I would easily trade all of SGA for more SGU. For me, SGU is the pinnacle of the franchise. Sacrilege, I know.

I think it was the pinnacle of the genre. True science fiction with a true sense of wonder and exploration. You could tell it was the writers doing what they really wanted to do, give science fiction on TV a literary quality. It was so refreshing. I'm rewatching old star treks and Bab5 and even those had that very unnatural speech that had to say everything out loud. I love them but SGU is the natural evolution that took the genre up to the level we always knew it could go. The only thing currently that fills the void left by SGU is reading cerebral science fiction. Nothing on TV captures that sense of wonder.

[psl1]

I think it was the pinnacle of the genre. True science fiction with a true sense of wonder and exploration. You could tell it was the writers doing what they really wanted to do, give science fiction on TV a literary quality. It was so refreshing. I'm rewatching old star treks and Bab5 and even those had that very unnatural speech that had to say everything out loud. I love them but SGU is the natural evolution that took the genre up to the level we always knew it could go. The only thing currently that fills the void left by SGU is reading cerebral science fiction. Nothing on TV captures that sense of wonder.

Agreed. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Aesop]

For me I kind of see SG-1 and SGU on the same level, just for different reasons. SG-1 is legendary in it's own right because it built off of the mythos from the motion picture and it ran for so long. Anderson, Shanks, Judge and Tapping were pillars of the Stargate franchise (evident in the fact that they all made appearances in the subsequent series, sans Judge in SGU). The original idea that Emmerich and Devlin put on the big screen absolutely exploded with SG-1. Yes, at times it was a little cheesy and some of the episodes may have been sub-par, but the overall story was extremely deep, rich and well-rounded.

I feel as though compared to SGA, SGU followed in SG-1's footsteps the best. Maybe not at face-value, but with the compelling storyline (both the overarching serialized plot and the episodic sub plots), enriching the back story of the gate builders with this mysterious derelict ship on the other side of the known universe. The series' untimely demise is just plain shameful, the direction it was headed and the potential it contained was incredible.

SGA, while technically my "gateway" into the franchise and still a reasonably entertaining series to watch, pales in comparison to the other two. I do appreciate how they expanded on the progressive development of the Ancient's story, their technology and culture leading up to their ascension though. It ultimately came across a bit more superficial than the other two series' which left the viewer less involved.

[jeri]

I know what you mean Aesop, I remember how much I loved SG-1 back in it's day. Watched it over and over. I was excited when Atlantis came along but after a while it went flat for me. Can't say exactly what went wrong there, I even bought the complete Atlantis set to see if I had missed something, apparently not. Liked the characters very much, but something about the story line lost momentum I guess.

I did not even know SGU was coming until it premiered, since I had lost interest in Stargate at that point. My brother pointed it out to me. I was hooked right away and loved it. It's a big disappointment that it was cancelled just as all these elements had been set in place, I was very excited to see where things where going.

[psl1]

Sounds like SG1 was to you- what Star Trek was to our Gen [worts and all].

[jeri]

Sounds like SG1 was to you- what Star Trek was to our Gen [worts and all].

Haha! I started out with the original Star Trek, I'm soooo old! I wouldn't say I was a Trekkie, but it's part of the backdrop of my life, the whole scifi scene. I don't know, I just move along as the shows progress, some speak to me, others don't.

My brother and I used to play Star Trek, make communicators and tricorders out of blocks of wood, and draw the controls on them. He's 3 years older than I, so he always got to be Capt. Kirk!

[psl1]

So if he was Captain Kirk who were you? Spock?

[the fifth man]

I know what you mean Aesop, I remember how much I loved SG-1 back in it's day. Watched it over and over. I was excited when Atlantis came along but after a while it went flat for me. Can't say exactly what went wrong there, I even bought the complete Atlantis set to see if I had missed something, apparently not. Liked the characters very much, but something about the story line lost momentum I guess.

I did not even know SGU was coming until it premiered, since I had lost interest in Stargate at that point. My brother pointed it out to me. I was hooked right away and loved it. It's a big disappointment that it was cancelled just as all these elements had been set in place, I was very excited to see where things where going.

I am sure many of us were very upset that SGU never got to tell more of its story. A lot of great stories were left untold IMO. Really, their adventure was just beginning.

[Krisz]

I know what you mean Aesop, I remember how much I loved SG-1 back in it's day. Watched it over and over. I was excited when Atlantis came along but after a while it went flat for me. Can't say exactly what went wrong there, I even bought the complete Atlantis set to see if I had missed something, apparently not. Liked the characters very much, but something about the story line lost momentum I guess.

I did not even know SGU was coming until it premiered, since I had lost interest in Stargate at that point. My brother pointed it out to me. I was hooked right away and loved it. It's a big disappointment that it was cancelled just as all these elements had been set in place, I was very excited to see where things where going.

SG-1 was the first show I really got hooked on since Star Trek TOS, also DS9, which for me was to Star Trek as SGU was to Stargate, the less popular series, but the one that made a brave move in a darker direction, shaking up the familiar beliefs and morals of the Trek and Stargate universes respectively.

I feel the same way about SGA as you, I can't put my finger on what it is that is wrong about it for me either. I'm going through it with the rewatch and have started season two. First time round I got bored with SGA half way through the second season. I'm trying to see if I feel any different with actually watching every episode past the middle of season 2.

I started watching SGU because it was more Stargate, and hoped it would be different after the disappointment of SGA. I really didn't know what to make of it for the first half of season one, it certainly was different in many ways. The way it was filmed, the way the characters behaved and reacted to things. It broke away from the familiar path of SG-1 and SGA, and I guess it took me a little time to actually take in what they were doing. By the latter part of season one I was hooked, season 2 just got better and better with each episode.

By the time it ended I was just totally baffled as to why ratings fell, leading to cancellation, I guess not enough people felt the same way as I did, simple as that! There was so much potential for great stories with the flawed yet brave, caring characters facing the situations they could never have imagined facing in their own ways. This made SGU more intense and gave us less predicable scenarios than the other two series', due to the nature of the people and what they were facing without the touchstones of home being available to them.

The stones were a bad idea for this reason for me, they took a lot away from the idea that they were totally cut off from everything they knew. How they adapted and reacted to life on Destiny, trying to hold on to what they knew yet having to change despite this is what made SGU so interesting to watch for me. It's a shame SGU was so underrated, it had a great underlying current of fear, yet such hope which could have led to some more great moments of tragedy and triumph such as we saw in 'Epilogue'.