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Thread: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

  1. #1
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    Default who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    obviously if Renly hadn't been assassinated

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    Second Lieutenant Shylodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Renly. It was all but certain, that's why Stanis and Melissandre assassinated Renly in the dead of night.

  3. #3
    Major Gen. Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?

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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    300 Spartans.

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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    iirc in reality they had several thousand non-spartan backup. And had a chokepoint to defend. i.e) ideal conditions.

    Stannis had neither.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Chris View Post
    Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?
    then why was Catelyn so worried?

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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    then why was Catelyn so worried?
    She doesn't want to see them waste time on each other when they could be fighting the Lannisters. It's time they don't have, plus it means less men to fight the Lannisters with.

  8. #8
    Major Gen. Chris's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

    At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know

  9. #9
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Chris View Post
    As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

    At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know
    in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king

  10. #10
    Captain Ser Scot A Ellison's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Renly,

    Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
    Renly,

    Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.
    None of that happened in the show though.

    Storm's End was taken out, and Renly had his entire force with him. More than likely in the show, hypothetically Stannis would have retreated to Dragonstone and become very difficult for Renly to pry him out of there.

  12. #12
    Captain Ser Scot A Ellison's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    TM6P,

    Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

    :shocked:


    Spoiler:
    Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

    "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

  13. #13
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Scot A Ellison View Post
    TM6P,

    Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

    :shocked:


    Spoiler:
    Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis
    Storm's End just doesn't happen.

    They've taken it out of the adaptation. In the series, Renly is camped on the coast in the Stormlands assembling his forces. Stannis comes with his fleet to negotiate. It doesn't end well, so he sends Davos in a boat with Melisandre under the cliffs below Renly's camp, one shadow baby later, no more Renly, and his former bannerman are swearing allegiance to Stannis, with the exception of the Tyrells who leave with Littlefinger, who's also in the camp at the time in the series.

    In the series Stannis appears to have more men than he does in the books, but the basic plot points are the same, Renly is dead, Stannis has enough troops to attack Kings Landing and the Tyrells have gone over to the Lannisters side.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king
    Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him. Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom. His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).

  15. #15
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Selina View Post
    Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him.
    I don't care about that even slightly
    Quote Originally Posted by Selina View Post
    Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom.
    where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander
    Quote Originally Posted by Selina View Post
    His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).
    what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

  16. #16
    Captain Ser Scot A Ellison's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Slimjim,

    Robb doesn't want Westeros. Just the North and the Riverlands.

    ETA

    Sorry you obviously ment Joffery.
    Last edited by Ser Scot A Ellison; May 4th, 2012 at 12:45 PM.
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

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  17. #17

    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    I don't care about that even slightly

    where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander

    what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot
    Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.

    Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoloRob View Post
    Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.
    the Dothraki are good fighters but nothing else, they know so little about politics that they have to be told like children not to steel from people helping them.
    the distinction between wildlings and northerners may have started out as an arbitrary one but has since as a result of it's self become meaningful owing to the fact that it meant wildlings where cut of from the rest of civilization where the northerners where not

    Quote Originally Posted by HoloRob View Post
    Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.
    I'd be more inclined to believe that if Ned's objection to Renly putting himself forward had been "your brother is a better king" not "your brother is a better solider"

  19. #19
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoloRob View Post
    Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted.
    Even if Jorah would have lost in single combat on horseback (and that's highly debatable) it doesn't matter. Skill in single combat does not win battles or wars, the ability for a force to fight as a disciplined unit, and the ability of the commander to make use of that unit effectively is what decides victory in battle. And frankly while the Drothraki are savage warriors, if they came up against a combined arms Westerosi force lead by a good commander, they'd be beaten, badly.

    The Drothraki may be loosely based on the Mongols, but they possess none of the advantages that made the Mongols such an effective fighting force. Unlike the Mongols they are undisciplined, tribal, lightly armed and armoured, lack heavy cavalry, engineers, siege weapons and levies.

    The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.
    Ok firstly the Nightswatch has a hell of a lot to worry about from the wildings, since Mance Rayder has put together a force of 100,000 with the intention of marching south.

    Secondly, again the wildlings may be fierce and savage warriors, but they are also tribal and undisciplined. They don't even have steel weapons or armour, and their primary advantage over the Nightswatch is that they outnumber them massively. Again if they met a Westerosi force of equal number in open battle, they'd be smashed to pieces.

  20. #20
    Captain Ser Scot A Ellison's Avatar
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    Default Re: who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

    Robert was a horrible King.
    All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story... All plot and no character makes for a dull story...

    "Scott isn't out. Actually, he'll probably soon get back in, then out, then in, then out, then in, with rhythm and stamina." reddevil 4/22/2010

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