who would have won the battle, Renly or Stannis?

[slimjim]

obviously if Renly hadn't been assassinated

[Shylodog]

Renly. It was all but certain, that's why Stanis and Melissandre assassinated Renly in the dead of night.

[Gen. Chris]

Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?

[Ukko]

300 Spartans.

[Crazedwraith]

iirc in reality they had several thousand non-spartan backup. And had a chokepoint to defend. i.e) ideal conditions.

Stannis had neither.

[slimjim]

Is this really even a question? 100,000 vs...what, 5,000? On an open battlefield?

then why was Catelyn so worried?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

then why was Catelyn so worried?

She doesn't want to see them waste time on each other when they could be fighting the Lannisters. It's time they don't have, plus it means less men to fight the Lannisters with.

[Gen. Chris]

As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know

[slimjim]

As Mighty 6 said, every man lost in a battle between brothers is a man that can't be sent against Joffrey and the Lannisters. It may seem harsh to say that the death of men between the two brothers is a waste while their deaths at the hands of the Lannisters wouldn't be a waste, but it's kind of the truth.

At least in the end only one man, Renly, had to die for the conflict to end, at least from the point of view of myself and the people that haven't read the books. I have no idea if this comes back to haunt Stannis or not and I'd rather not know

in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Renly,

Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Renly,

Stannis would have been trapped between the walls of Storm's End and Renly's forces. There would have been no room for Stannis to manuver. However, recognize this wasn't 100K v. 5K. It was more like 10-15k v. 5k. Renly rode ahead with his vanguard which was mostly cavalry and left his foot behind.

None of that happened in the show though.

Storm's End was taken out, and Renly had his entire force with him. More than likely in the show, hypothetically Stannis would have retreated to Dragonstone and become very difficult for Renly to pry him out of there.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TM6P,

Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

:shocked:

Spoiler:

Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

TM6P,

Renly moved a 100K man force from the middle of the Reach to Storms End... in a couple of days?

:shocked:

Spoiler:

Also, isn't that going to screw up a rather huge plot point surrounding the Battle of the Blackwater later this season? The majority of the Reach forces support the Lannisters against Stannis

Storm's End just doesn't happen.

They've taken it out of the adaptation. In the series, Renly is camped on the coast in the Stormlands assembling his forces. Stannis comes with his fleet to negotiate. It doesn't end well, so he sends Davos in a boat with Melisandre under the cliffs below Renly's camp, one shadow baby later, no more Renly, and his former bannerman are swearing allegiance to Stannis, with the exception of the Tyrells who leave with Littlefinger, who's also in the camp at the time in the series.

In the series Stannis appears to have more men than he does in the books, but the basic plot points are the same, Renly is dead, Stannis has enough troops to attack Kings Landing and the Tyrells have gone over to the Lannisters side.

[Selina]

in my view what Renly was doing was necessary, his brother would have been (or will be?) a terrible king

Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him. Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom. His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).

[slimjim]

Stannis is the older brother, so if one of the two has any claim to the throne it would be him.

I don't care about that even slightly

Besides Stannis is a capable commander, understands war and probably knows how to run a kingdom.

where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander

His downsides obviously are that he isn't very popular and too uncompromising for his own good at times. Renly on the other hand is very popular, but has little else going for him that I could see (either in the show or in the books).

what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Slimjim,

Robb doesn't want Westeros. Just the North and the Riverlands.

ETA

Sorry you obviously ment Joffery.

[HoloRob]

I don't care about that even slightly

where directly told by Renly (and before you say he'd bias, Ned didn't disagree) that he's just a good military commander

what Renly has going for him is he's not an insane teenage boy, his army isn't made up of Dothraki or wildlings and he's not just a good military commander like his brother (having set on the king's council), in other words he's the best of a bad lot

Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.

Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.

[slimjim]

Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted. The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.

the Dothraki are good fighters but nothing else, they know so little about politics that they have to be told like children not to steel from people helping them.
the distinction between wildlings and northerners may have started out as an arbitrary one but has since as a result of it's self become meaningful owing to the fact that it meant wildlings where cut of from the rest of civilization where the northerners where not

Stannis also sat on his brother's small council, as master of ships. He is very capable as a leader, probably the most honourable king too. He's tough, but fair. He doesn't go out of the way to make people like him however, which means most of the realm simply doesn't like him. If he were made king, I could see a fairly large % of the realm end up taking the black, which to be fair would probably be a few good thing with the others resurfacing.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if Ned's objection to Renly putting himself forward had been "your brother is a better king" not "your brother is a better solider"

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Don't be so racist about Dothraki and Wildlings. The Dothraki are awesome warriors, and would put many knights to shame. Jorah Mormont wouldn't have stood a chance vs a Dothraki if they were both mounted.

Even if Jorah would have lost in single combat on horseback (and that's highly debatable) it doesn't matter. Skill in single combat does not win battles or wars, the ability for a force to fight as a disciplined unit, and the ability of the commander to make use of that unit effectively is what decides victory in battle. And frankly while the Drothraki are savage warriors, if they came up against a combined arms Westerosi force lead by a good commander, they'd be beaten, badly.

The Drothraki may be loosely based on the Mongols, but they possess none of the advantages that made the Mongols such an effective fighting force. Unlike the Mongols they are undisciplined, tribal, lightly armed and armoured, lack heavy cavalry, engineers, siege weapons and levies.

The Wildings are exactly the same as northerners, just born on the other side of the Wall. The Night's Watch shouldn't be concerned about them, the Wall has nothing to do with them.

Ok firstly the Nightswatch has a hell of a lot to worry about from the wildings, since Mance Rayder has put together a force of 100,000 with the intention of marching south.

Secondly, again the wildlings may be fierce and savage warriors, but they are also tribal and undisciplined. They don't even have steel weapons or armour, and their primary advantage over the Nightswatch is that they outnumber them massively. Again if they met a Westerosi force of equal number in open battle, they'd be smashed to pieces.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Robert was a horrible King.