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How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

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    #16
    Originally posted by slimjim View Post
    1)Ned made the agreement in front of a lot of people, word would have gotten back to robb and he could have had someone waiting for them
    2)maybe they hadn't taken jamie yet but I'm pretty sure the war had already started because I remember robb reacting to his fathers death by hitting a tree with his sword which means they where already on campaign
    3)not officially
    4)even without jamie the girls are still valuable, and surly if they killed them it would be because of what robb was doing
    5)who's "they"?


    telling a child that when the grow up they have god given right to do what ever they want without consequence, goes a bit beyond spoiling
    1) A bunch of Lannister people.
    2)Yes, you are right i think, he went to get Ned out of the dungeons first. But he still captured Jamie after his fathers death. Which, as Tyrion pointed out, buggered any chance at peace with the north, so the fighting started and Jamie was captured.
    3) It was a deal with Cersie, that Joffery screwed up by killing him.
    4) But they die if he runs away.
    5) The Lannisters...


    It doesnt make someone a psychopath. That is a mental illness.
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      #17
      Originally posted by slimjim View Post
      1) even if they went by sea they'd have to travel on land in northern territory for a little bit
      No they wouldn't. Look at a map of Westeros next time, the ships sail to Eastwatch by the Sea, a fort on the Wall, which is on the coast.
      2) the Lannisters wouldn't have killed his daughter for fear of the Starks killing jaime
      Joffery doesn't give a **** about Jaime and the Lannisters didn't know he was captured at the time.
      3) why would Ned feel obliged to honour a deal made with a king he does not recognise
      Cause he doesn't want to see Sansa's head on a spike perhaps?
      4) as I understand it you don't actually take the black until you get to the wall and I'm suggesting Ned would run away before that
      Only volunteers are permitted to leave in their training. Convicted criminals, which Ned would have been if he was sent to the wall, are not. He'd be killed if he tried to escape. Also if he went by ship it would be quite hard for Ned to "run away" off that.
      5) Yoren would let Ned go
      No he wouldn't. Firstly because if he let Ned go, he'd be killed for helping him escape. Secondly, on a practical note, the Nightswatch relies on recruiting in the south, especially from the prisons in King's Landing. They let Ned go, and the Lannisters aren't going to let them recruit any more, effectively destroying them.

      if they where told from a young age that it was their divine right to rule and that ruling meant being able to do what ever you want then yes I think most would. Joffery's a lot like some of the younger romen emperors
      And yet there are countless kings throughout history who came to the thrones at a young age and managed to not be psychopathic sadists. He's not normal.

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        #18
        Originally posted by slimjim View Post
        1)Ned made the agreement in front of a lot of people, word would have gotten back to robb and he could have had someone waiting for them
        2)maybe they hadn't taken jamie yet but I'm pretty sure the war had already started because I remember robb reacting to his fathers death by hitting a tree with his sword which means they where already on campaign
        3)not officially
        4)even without jamie the girls are still valuable, and surly if they killed them it would be because of what robb was doing
        5)who's "they"?


        telling a child that when they grow up they have god given right to do what ever they want without consequence goes a bit beyond spoiling
        Per A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows...

        When he was very young, Joffrey learned one of the kitchen cats at King's Landing was pregnant. Joffrey killed the cat and cut open its belly to see the kittens inside. He showed one of the unborn kittens to King Robert. Robert was mortified of course and he hit the Joffrey so hard, he knocked out some baby teeth. In A Feast for Crows, I also remember reading that Joffrey bullied Tommen regularly. Clearly his mental issues have been around far longer than most would suspect.

        This is FAR beyond being a spoiled little boy. The kid is psychotic. The scene with the prostitutes in "Garden of Bones" clearly alludes to that.
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          #19
          You take the black, it's an oath for life. End of story.
          The other north lords might not like it but they'd honor it. As it has been honored for hundreds of years. It's an oath that's hardwired into them.
          One reason the men wear black....so they can't escape. We saw that in the first episode, anyone running from the wall is dead. Whomever finds him kills the deserter.

          Ned's honor would have dictated that he go and the other north lords' honor would have dictated that they respect it - even as they don't or don't want to accept Joff as king.

          In addition.... Joffrrey is nuts. This is no spoiled brat syndrome. This is a boy that amused himself by picking wings off flies to watch them struggle. That got his rocks off humiliating Sansa. His response to the whores (presuming he's not sexually experienced) was to deal with his fear by brutalizing. He told the one 'beat the other or I'll do the same to you'. He's a bully, he lacks impulse control, he lacks a moral compass, it's a definition of a sociopath.
          Where in the World is George Hammond?


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            #20
            Originally posted by Skydiver View Post
            You take the black, it's an oath for life. End of story.
            The other north lords might not like it but they'd honor it. As it has been honored for hundreds of years. It's an oath that's hardwired into them.
            One reason the men wear black....so they can't escape. We saw that in the first episode, anyone running from the wall is dead. Whomever finds him kills the deserter.

            Ned's honor would have dictated that he go and the other north lords' honor would have dictated that they respect it - even as they don't or don't want to accept Joff as king.
            you don't take the black until you get to wall I'm suggesting he'd be rescued before that

            Originally posted by Skydiver View Post
            In addition.... Joffrrey is nuts. This is no spoiled brat syndrome. This is a boy that amused himself by picking wings off flies to watch them struggle. That got his rocks off humiliating Sansa. His response to the whores (presuming he's not sexually experienced) was to deal with his fear by brutalizing. He told the one 'beat the other or I'll do the same to you'. He's a bully, he lacks impulse control, he lacks a moral compass, it's a definition of a sociopath.
            I think your being too optimistic about human nature, Nero for example was brought up in a manor similar to Joffrrey and he killed both of his wives one of which personally

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              #21
              Originally posted by Cold Fuzz View Post
              Per A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows...

              When he was very young, Joffrey learned one of the kitchen cats at King's Landing was pregnant. Joffrey killed the cat and cut open its belly to see the kittens inside. He showed one of the unborn kittens to King Robert. Robert was mortified of course and he hit the Joffrey so hard, he knocked out some baby teeth. In A Feast for Crows, I also remember reading that Joffrey bullied Tommen regularly. Clearly his mental issues have been around far longer than most would suspect.

              This is FAR beyond being a spoiled little boy. The kid is psychotic. The scene with the prostitutes in "Garden of Bones" clearly alludes to that.
              I'm talking about the character from the TV series not the books

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                #22
                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                No they wouldn't. Look at a map of Westeros next time, the ships sail to Eastwatch by the Sea, a fort on the Wall, which is on the coast.
                unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands

                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                Joffery doesn't give a **** about Jaime and the Lannisters didn't know he was captured at the time.
                then why didn't he kill her any way
                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                Cause he doesn't want to see Sansa's head on a spike perhaps?
                if he was going to do that it'd be because of robb not Ned

                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                Only volunteers are permitted to leave in their training. Convicted criminals, which Ned would have been if he was sent to the wall, are not. He'd be killed if he tried to escape. Also if he went by ship it would be quite hard for Ned to "run away" off that.
                1)criminals are made stay by force not by honour
                2)"He'd be killed if he tried to escape" not if Robb's army where protecting him

                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                No he wouldn't. Firstly because if he let Ned go, he'd be killed for helping him escape. Secondly, on a practical note, the Nightswatch relies on recruiting in the south, especially from the prisons in King's Landing. They let Ned go, and the Lannisters aren't going to let them recruit any more, effectively destroying them.
                then why did he fight and die to protect Arya?


                Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                And yet there are countless kings throughout history who came to the thrones at a young age and managed to not be psychopathic sadists. He's not normal.
                they whre probably brought up right

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                  unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands


                  then why didn't he kill her any way

                  if he was going to do that it'd be because of robb not Ned


                  1)criminals are made stay by force not by honour
                  2)"He'd be killed if he tried to escape" not if Robb's army where protecting him


                  then why did he fight and die to protect Arya?



                  they whre probably brought up right
                  Seriously I think you're trolling at this point. People have explained things to you over and over again. A ship can take Ned to East Watch, a port on the Wall owned by the Nightswatch, there isn't any point Robb can rescue him, also he's in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the Wall. Ned also as a convicted criminal would be killed before he tried to escape, even before he took the oath. Finally as I said before, the Lannisters have the Watch over a barrel, as they let them recruit in south, the Watch doesn't do what they want, they shut down recruitment, no more recruitment, no more Watch.

                  Yoren's death illustrates that the Watch cannot be legally made to give up one of their own. The Lannisters aren't after Arya when they attack Yoren's group, they're after Gendry, and once someone has been given to the Watch, no one can legally take them back. Now the Lannisters might not care, but the Northern Lords do, and wouldn't support Robb in such a venture, even less so if Ned was sent by ship to the Wall, as that would mean they'd have to march thousands of miles north, leaving the Riverlands exposed to the Lannisters, and attack the Wall, a rather suicidal task.

                  And if you aren't trolling, might I suggest you find a programme that is a little less intellectually taxing for you.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                    unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands
                    No it doesnt. Taking a ship to Eastwatch would mean no trekking through all the northern lands. Here is a map if you need it. No walking through northern lands, no lords or armies to get through.

                    Here is a better map. Because its awesome.

                    And once more, Joffery is a psychopath, a sadist. Its clear for all to see. Spoiling a child doesnt turn them into that. He is mentally ill. If you want to look at possible causes for that, then consider his parentage. And given the era in which GoT is set, consider how many times in his bloodline (direct or otherwise) blood relatives have had children together. All the Lannisters i've seen dont exactly look like they come from a very diverse gene pool. And before you say it, no, i havent read the books, so im not talking about the book character.
                    Last edited by Ukko; 26 April 2012, 07:28 AM.
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                      #25
                      Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                      I'm talking about the character from the TV series not the books
                      Funny thing is that Joffrey in the TV series comes across even more sadistic and disturbed than in the books. While I agree that some of it can be explained with him being a spoiled brat, I really think that the extent of his cruelty and sadism really only leaves the explanation that he is mentaly ill.

                      As for getting Ned to the wall. The north has only one major harbour and even that is not all that big. So besides fisher boats and such their naval power is weak at best. So Cersei could simply have shipped Ned to Eastwatch like Tyrion did with Jannos Slynt. The land route might have been a bit trickier. Robb and his northman could have blocked the way for Yoren at several points, if they were so inclined. Since they don't regard Joffrey as the rightful king they might have decided that Ned wasn't bound by any oath given to the iron throne.

                      This is a moot point though. Just look at how Ned acted throughout season one. He was a man of his word, a man of utmost integrity and honour. He would have upheld his oath regardless of the circumstances surrounding it. He publicly named himself a traitor to the realm, Joffrey his rightful king and swore to take the black. Eddard Stark would have gone to the wall and no one could have swayed him of that I am certain.

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                        #26
                        You bring up inbreeding, it's also an issue with the Targarians. Dany's brother was nuts, and her father was 'mad king targarian'.

                        when you have a 'lord and fiefs' set up you have a small pool of lords that inbreed and eventually reproduce themselves to death. their gene pool gets worse and worse.

                        Joff is a mean spirited child who's madness has come into full bloom.
                        Where in the World is George Hammond?


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                          #27
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          Seriously I think you're trolling at this point. People have explained things to you over and over again.
                          translation: "I'm too arrogant to handle people disagreeing with me past a curtain point so my ego forces me to accuse them of deliberately saying something they don't really believe just to annoy me"
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          A ship can take Ned to East Watch, a port on the Wall owned by the Nightswatch, there isn't any point Robb can rescue him,
                          yes there is, in the space between where the ships docked and actual entrance
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          also he's in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the Wall.
                          robb could send some of his 1000s of men if he doesn't want to go personally to
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          Ned also as a convicted criminal would be killed before he tried to escape,
                          who by?
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          Finally as I said before, the Lannisters have the Watch over a barrel, as they let them recruit in south, the Watch doesn't do what they want, they shut down recruitment, no more recruitment, no more Watch.
                          Yoren's actions prove their more then willing to go against them sometimes

                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          Yoren's death illustrates that the Watch cannot be legally made to give up one of their own. The Lannisters aren't after Arya when they attack Yoren's group, they're after Gendry, and once someone has been given to the Watch, no one can legally take them back. Now the Lannisters might not care, but the Northern Lords do, and wouldn't support Robb in such a venture,
                          if Yoren's hual is considered so bloody sacred how come he didn't think twice about putting a girl in it
                          Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                          even less so if Ned was sent by ship to the Wall, as that would mean they'd have to march thousands of miles north, leaving the Riverlands exposed to the Lannisters, and attack the Wall, a rather suicidal task
                          he doesn't have to send all his men

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Ukko View Post
                            And once more, Joffery is a psychopath, a sadist. Its clear for all to see. Spoiling a child doesnt turn them into that. He is mentally ill. If you want to look at possible causes for that, then consider his parentage. And given the era in which GoT is set, consider how many times in his bloodline (direct or otherwise) blood relatives have had children together. All the Lannisters i've seen dont exactly look like they come from a very diverse gene pool. And before you say it, no, i havent read the books, so im not talking about the book character.
                            I'm not saying Joffery was just spoiled, I'm suggesting he had his world view wrapped by his mother until he believed he was justified in doing what ever he wanted all the time

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                              #29
                              The maps show how close Eastwacth is to the ocean, the good map names it "Eastwatch by the sea". The space between that and the ocean would be like the space between my front door and the house opposite me...except sandy. If it got any closer, it would be in the sea.
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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Ukko View Post
                                The maps show how close Eastwacth is to the ocean, the good map names it "Eastwatch by the sea". The space between that and the ocean would be like the space between my front door and the house opposite me...except sandy. If it got any closer, it would be in the sea.
                                if they wanted to the British army could put at least a hundred men between my house and the one opposite

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