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Thread: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Fuzz View Post
    Per A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows...

    When he was very young, Joffrey learned one of the kitchen cats at King's Landing was pregnant. Joffrey killed the cat and cut open its belly to see the kittens inside. He showed one of the unborn kittens to King Robert. Robert was mortified of course and he hit the Joffrey so hard, he knocked out some baby teeth. In A Feast for Crows, I also remember reading that Joffrey bullied Tommen regularly. Clearly his mental issues have been around far longer than most would suspect.

    This is FAR beyond being a spoiled little boy. The kid is psychotic. The scene with the prostitutes in "Garden of Bones" clearly alludes to that.
    I'm talking about the character from the TV series not the books

  2. #22
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    No they wouldn't. Look at a map of Westeros next time, the ships sail to Eastwatch by the Sea, a fort on the Wall, which is on the coast.
    unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Joffery doesn't give a **** about Jaime and the Lannisters didn't know he was captured at the time.
    then why didn't he kill her any way
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Cause he doesn't want to see Sansa's head on a spike perhaps?
    if he was going to do that it'd be because of robb not Ned

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Only volunteers are permitted to leave in their training. Convicted criminals, which Ned would have been if he was sent to the wall, are not. He'd be killed if he tried to escape. Also if he went by ship it would be quite hard for Ned to "run away" off that.
    1)criminals are made stay by force not by honour
    2)"He'd be killed if he tried to escape" not if Robb's army where protecting him

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    No he wouldn't. Firstly because if he let Ned go, he'd be killed for helping him escape. Secondly, on a practical note, the Nightswatch relies on recruiting in the south, especially from the prisons in King's Landing. They let Ned go, and the Lannisters aren't going to let them recruit any more, effectively destroying them.
    then why did he fight and die to protect Arya?


    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    And yet there are countless kings throughout history who came to the thrones at a young age and managed to not be psychopathic sadists. He's not normal.
    they whre probably brought up right

  3. #23
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands


    then why didn't he kill her any way

    if he was going to do that it'd be because of robb not Ned


    1)criminals are made stay by force not by honour
    2)"He'd be killed if he tried to escape" not if Robb's army where protecting him


    then why did he fight and die to protect Arya?



    they whre probably brought up right
    Seriously I think you're trolling at this point. People have explained things to you over and over again. A ship can take Ned to East Watch, a port on the Wall owned by the Nightswatch, there isn't any point Robb can rescue him, also he's in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the Wall. Ned also as a convicted criminal would be killed before he tried to escape, even before he took the oath. Finally as I said before, the Lannisters have the Watch over a barrel, as they let them recruit in south, the Watch doesn't do what they want, they shut down recruitment, no more recruitment, no more Watch.

    Yoren's death illustrates that the Watch cannot be legally made to give up one of their own. The Lannisters aren't after Arya when they attack Yoren's group, they're after Gendry, and once someone has been given to the Watch, no one can legally take them back. Now the Lannisters might not care, but the Northern Lords do, and wouldn't support Robb in such a venture, even less so if Ned was sent by ship to the Wall, as that would mean they'd have to march thousands of miles north, leaving the Riverlands exposed to the Lannisters, and attack the Wall, a rather suicidal task.

    And if you aren't trolling, might I suggest you find a programme that is a little less intellectually taxing for you.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    unless those fort are actually in the sea my point still stands
    No it doesnt. Taking a ship to Eastwatch would mean no trekking through all the northern lands. Here is a map if you need it. No walking through northern lands, no lords or armies to get through.

    Here is a better map. Because its awesome.

    And once more, Joffery is a psychopath, a sadist. Its clear for all to see. Spoiling a child doesnt turn them into that. He is mentally ill. If you want to look at possible causes for that, then consider his parentage. And given the era in which GoT is set, consider how many times in his bloodline (direct or otherwise) blood relatives have had children together. All the Lannisters i've seen dont exactly look like they come from a very diverse gene pool. And before you say it, no, i havent read the books, so im not talking about the book character.
    Last edited by Ukko; April 26th, 2012 at 07:28 AM.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    I'm talking about the character from the TV series not the books
    Funny thing is that Joffrey in the TV series comes across even more sadistic and disturbed than in the books. While I agree that some of it can be explained with him being a spoiled brat, I really think that the extent of his cruelty and sadism really only leaves the explanation that he is mentaly ill.

    As for getting Ned to the wall. The north has only one major harbour and even that is not all that big. So besides fisher boats and such their naval power is weak at best. So Cersei could simply have shipped Ned to Eastwatch like Tyrion did with Jannos Slynt. The land route might have been a bit trickier. Robb and his northman could have blocked the way for Yoren at several points, if they were so inclined. Since they don't regard Joffrey as the rightful king they might have decided that Ned wasn't bound by any oath given to the iron throne.

    This is a moot point though. Just look at how Ned acted throughout season one. He was a man of his word, a man of utmost integrity and honour. He would have upheld his oath regardless of the circumstances surrounding it. He publicly named himself a traitor to the realm, Joffrey his rightful king and swore to take the black. Eddard Stark would have gone to the wall and no one could have swayed him of that I am certain.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    You bring up inbreeding, it's also an issue with the Targarians. Dany's brother was nuts, and her father was 'mad king targarian'.

    when you have a 'lord and fiefs' set up you have a small pool of lords that inbreed and eventually reproduce themselves to death. their gene pool gets worse and worse.

    Joff is a mean spirited child who's madness has come into full bloom.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Seriously I think you're trolling at this point. People have explained things to you over and over again.
    translation: "I'm too arrogant to handle people disagreeing with me past a curtain point so my ego forces me to accuse them of deliberately saying something they don't really believe just to annoy me"
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    A ship can take Ned to East Watch, a port on the Wall owned by the Nightswatch, there isn't any point Robb can rescue him,
    yes there is, in the space between where the ships docked and actual entrance
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    also he's in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the Wall.
    robb could send some of his 1000s of men if he doesn't want to go personally to
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Ned also as a convicted criminal would be killed before he tried to escape,
    who by?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Finally as I said before, the Lannisters have the Watch over a barrel, as they let them recruit in south, the Watch doesn't do what they want, they shut down recruitment, no more recruitment, no more Watch.
    Yoren's actions prove their more then willing to go against them sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    Yoren's death illustrates that the Watch cannot be legally made to give up one of their own. The Lannisters aren't after Arya when they attack Yoren's group, they're after Gendry, and once someone has been given to the Watch, no one can legally take them back. Now the Lannisters might not care, but the Northern Lords do, and wouldn't support Robb in such a venture,
    if Yoren's hual is considered so bloody sacred how come he didn't think twice about putting a girl in it
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    even less so if Ned was sent by ship to the Wall, as that would mean they'd have to march thousands of miles north, leaving the Riverlands exposed to the Lannisters, and attack the Wall, a rather suicidal task
    he doesn't have to send all his men

  8. #28
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    And once more, Joffery is a psychopath, a sadist. Its clear for all to see. Spoiling a child doesnt turn them into that. He is mentally ill. If you want to look at possible causes for that, then consider his parentage. And given the era in which GoT is set, consider how many times in his bloodline (direct or otherwise) blood relatives have had children together. All the Lannisters i've seen dont exactly look like they come from a very diverse gene pool. And before you say it, no, i havent read the books, so im not talking about the book character.
    I'm not saying Joffery was just spoiled, I'm suggesting he had his world view wrapped by his mother until he believed he was justified in doing what ever he wanted all the time

  9. #29
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    The maps show how close Eastwacth is to the ocean, the good map names it "Eastwatch by the sea". The space between that and the ocean would be like the space between my front door and the house opposite me...except sandy. If it got any closer, it would be in the sea.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    The maps show how close Eastwacth is to the ocean, the good map names it "Eastwatch by the sea". The space between that and the ocean would be like the space between my front door and the house opposite me...except sandy. If it got any closer, it would be in the sea.
    if they wanted to the British army could put at least a hundred men between my house and the one opposite

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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Yoren only took Arya to get her out of Kings Landing and home. Maybe that wasn't made clear in the show but in the book he recognized her (that's why he shielded her from seeing Ned beheaded). He cut her hair and dressed her as a boy and told her to act like a boy. His plans were to pass by winterfell on the way to the wall and drop her off.

    As to Ned taking the black, it's a common refuge for high born to take. You'll find that there are other highborn men on the wall. It's a debtor's prison, a place for second and third sons (that'll never inherit) a place to dump unwnted children (like Sam, who was sent after his father had another son, IIRC, to make a clear line of succession)

    It's analogous to the priesthood of old, a place to send/dump/hide the unwanted and inconvenient. Hence why once they make their vows and take the black they can't leave, under pain of death. You saw in the first episode, Ned himself beheaded the deserter.

    Now, I suppose, once Ned got there, before he took his vows he could be allowed to leave, however I'm sure Cersei had him promise - and planned to do it in front of the crowd ' Ned stark, I will let you live if you choose to take the black', he'd either agree or die. and once he agreed in front of thousands he'd never go back on it.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    if they wanted to the British army could put at least a hundred men between my house and the one opposite
    The British army could also level all of Westeros without having to set foot on the continent. Robb stark is not the British army.
    You are moving the goal posts. First they cant take Ned to the wall because they would have to trek across the north through his own lands. Thats been proved wrong, so now they cant do it because the 2 minute walk from boat to Eastwatch has enough space to hold a hundred people.....

    Ships full of Lannister soldiers would have no trouble with a hundred men. Ned, having given his word (and his children being in the hands of the Lannisters), wouldnt allow himself to be freed.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    then why did he fight and die to protect Arya?
    What makes you think he fought for Arya ? The Lannisters were looking for Gendry. They had no idea that Arya Stark was part of Yorens little group. So if he had wanted to protect Arya handing over Gendry would have been the smart move, no ?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    yes there is, in the space between where the ships docked and actual entrance
    Agreed, if Eastwatch has no harbour (the map isn't specific about it) Robb could send men north and try to blockade it. What makes you think though that Eddard Stark would go back on his word ? The man is honourable to a fault, I can't see him betraying an oath, can you after all you've seen of him ?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    Yoren's actions prove their more then willing to go against them sometimes
    Yoren's actions mostly just prove that he is willing to fight and die for the Nightswatch. Those recruits were given over to him and are now part of the watch and Lannisters have no business taking them.

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    if Yoren's hual is considered so bloody sacred how come he didn't think twice about putting a girl in it
    The Starks have always been friends of the watch and Yoren feels some loyality to Ned because of Benjen Stark. So he decides to help out Arrya. There is a huge difference between secretly helping out a child as Yoren did and openly releasing a prisoner (as you suggested the watch might do for Eddard).

    And since you have been ignoring this point the whole time, I'll repeat it once more:

    What makes you think that Eddard would go back on his word and not join the Nightswatch after giving his word to take the black ?

  14. #34
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    translation: "I'm too arrogant to handle people disagreeing with me past a curtain point so my ego forces me to accuse them of deliberately saying something they don't really believe just to annoy me"
    Oh no, I have no problem with people with different opinions. But you aren't arguing over opinions, you are arguing over established facts in the series and books. Convicted criminals and defeated nobles go to the wall and don't come back, if they try to escape they are killed. Also Ned Stark as a man of honour, would never go back on his word if he agreed to join the Nightswatch.

    You are arguing the toss and moving the goal posts despite people explaining things to you over and over again.
    yes there is, in the space between where the ships docked and actual entrance
    What the 6 feet of gangplank from the ship to the dock? Eastwatch is a fortified port on the far Eastern Edge of the Wall, run by the Nightswatch. There is no gap, you step off the ship, into one of the Watch's forts.
    robb could send some of his 1000s of men if he doesn't want to go personally to
    All of his men are with him, in the Riverlands, thousands of miles away from the wall. And he desperately needs all of them to fight the Lannisters who outnumber him 3 to 1.
    who by?
    The Nightswatch. It's part of their rules, you desert, they execute you.
    Yoren's actions prove their more then willing to go against them sometimes
    Yoren's actions prove he will fight anyone who tries to take those in the custody of the Nightswatch, that includes Northerners as well.

    if Yoren's hual is considered so bloody sacred how come he didn't think twice about putting a girl in it
    Sorry can I have that in english please. What's a "hual"?

    If you're talking about Yoren taking Arya with him, then he's doing Ned Stark a small favour, a far cry from the crime of letting a criminal given to the Watch go. As an ostensibly neutral party, and with the Lannisters having no idea Arya is in his care, Yoren's group is the best way to travel across war torn Westeros.
    he doesn't have to send all his men
    So he should send some of his men, the men he desperately needs to fight the Lannisters with, who already outnumber him? He should further deplete his force, have them march thousands of miles north, and try and assault the wall, which seeing as how with you suggestion that Robb only send a portion of his men, would be even more suicidal.

    And the Northern Lords, who are big into honour and supporting the Nightswatch are really going to support fighting them are they?

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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    In addition to the silliness of Robb rallying the troops to 'save' Ned....none of them would participate. A man that promises to go to the wall, his promise is sacred. None of them would do it. ANd once word got out, that Robb would flout the rules of centuries to save his father and dishonor the sacredness of the vow, he'd be exposed as an oathbreaker and he'd lose all his support.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    The British army could also level all of Westeros without having to set foot on the continent. Robb stark is not the British army.
    You are moving the goal posts. First they cant take Ned to the wall because they would have to trek across the north through his own lands. Thats been proved wrong, so now they cant do it because the 2 minute walk from boat to Eastwatch has enough space to hold a hundred people.....

    Ships full of Lannister soldiers would have no trouble with a hundred men. Ned, having given his word (and his children being in the hands of the Lannisters), wouldnt allow himself to be freed.
    "You are moving the goal posts" that the wall is in the north and that Robb has control of the north has always been the core of my argument
    what so special about "Lannister soldiers"?

  17. #37
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Quote Originally Posted by slimjim View Post
    "You are moving the goal posts" that the wall is in the north and that Robb has control of the north has always been the core of my argument
    what so special about "Lannister soldiers"?
    Rob doesnt have controll of the wall, the Nights Watch or the sea. To quote M6
    What the 6 feet of gangplank from the ship to the dock? Eastwatch is a fortified port on the far Eastern Edge of the Wall, run by the Nightswatch. There is no gap, you step off the ship, into one of the Watch's forts.
    There is no going through any territory controlled by Robb stark, whose soldiers are thousands of miles away.

    Nothing is special about them. I am just pointing out that a couple of boats full of them would have no problem with 100 men.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: How exactly was Cersei planning on getting Eddard Stark to the wall?

    Slimjim,

    2) the Lannisters wouldn't have killed his daughter for fear of the Starks killing jaime
    You are assuming Ned has any idea Jamie had been captured. Ned did what he did to save his daughters. That's the only reason he would go back and publicly declare Joffery is his rightful king. Ned believes his oath matters. Ned, respects the Night's Watch. Once he'd given his oath he'd keep it. If he attempted to desert he would expect to be killed by his former bannermen.

    Ned was not someone who skulked in the dark attempting to betray those who had wronged him. Ned wanted a stand up fight. That is why he got his hiney wipped at the "Game of Thrones". He lost because he cared about the innocent. He cared about his word.

    "You are moving the goal posts" that the wall is in the north and that Robb has control of the north has always been the core of my argument
    No. The just to the South of the Wall is called "the Gift". It is not part of the Stark Fiefdom. It was given to the Night's Watch, by the Starks, thousands of years ago. The North still honors the Nights Watch and would not send troops to grab a man from Eastwatch by the Sea. Nor would Ned consent to being grabbed.
    Last edited by Ser Scot A Ellison; April 30th, 2012 at 05:51 AM.
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