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    #76
    Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
    ... the fact is what happened to SGU does not spell the end of niche shows. Quite the opposite, as I pointed out, they are doing very well on other networks.
    Thanks, Mighty 6. SGU would probably be okay on a network like HBO or FX, where its fanbase would have been enough to keep it going. Assuming it got past the committee, of course ...

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      #77
      SGU on HBO ?!?!?!?!?
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        #78
        CW perhaps...........
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          #79
          Cw?
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            #80
            I think Gatefan is referring to the reality network CW or "Culling Wraiths", where each week a different planet in the Pegasus galaxy is culled, in front of a live Wraith audience. Very popular on Todd's hive ship ... - Dean

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              #81
              Originally posted by LT. COL. John Sheppard View Post
              Cw?
              CW...as in the home of Supernatural, Vampire Diaries, Secret Circle, and where Smallville used to call home.
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                #82
                oh thanks
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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Dean Grr View Post
                  Thanks, Mighty 6. SGU would probably be okay on a network like HBO or FX, where its fanbase would have been enough to keep it going. Assuming it got past the committee, of course ...
                  Worth noting that SGU's ratings, even in season 2, are actually far higher than stuff like the Borgia's and the Tudors on Showtime, both of which were, or in the case of the Borgia's still is, as expensive to make as SGU. The fact that, especially on premium channels, people pay a higher price for the shows, means that shows with smaller viewing figures survive.

                  Of course it's a pipe dream at this point. There are many other factors to consider. The premium channels have plenty of their own shows, and many more in development, they don't need to poach cancelled shows of syfy, if syfy would even let them, I seem to remember when SG1 was cancelled there was some suggestion of moving it to another channel and syfy kicked up a fuss. Also there's the whole name problem, SGU might have been a dark scifi drama more in the style of HBO and showtimes output, but the fact is it still has Stargate in its name, and it's still very much a Stargate show. And the problem is that in the wider public perception, stargate means lighter, pg13 style scifi action adventure, indeed I think that was something that SGU struggled with anyway, and I don't think many premium channels, even the ones like Starz and HBO that are friendly to scifi and fantasy, would want to have to go the great effort and cost to try and convince people otherwise. And they'd all much rather commission their own shows rather than have MGM breathing down their neck.

                  Had the show just not been stargate, they'd removed that, but left the basic premise about a group of people trapped on a ship millions flight years from home, I think it would have been actually a lot of an easier sell to other cable or premium channels. The Stargate name carries a lot of baggage after all these years. But for arguments sake, let's just say that by some miracle Showtime picked up SGU, I think it actually would have done alright for itself.

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                    Eh? There's already tv channels where niche shows survive, it's called premium and cable channels. You have people like HBO who originally built themselves on what was thought to be niche shows, like the Sopranos and the Wire. When they started, many people thought they wouldn't get big audiences, they were dark, violent, complex and demanded a lot from their audiences, yet the Sopranos flourished and gained mass appeal quickly, while the Wire, while it was on air struggled for ratings, became an enormous hit on dvd. And HBO, while today it's major shows like True Blood, Game of Thrones and Boardwalk Empire, are shows with massive popular appeal, they still invest in niche shows like Treme and Luck. Treme is probably the most niche show there has ever been, and has extremely low ratings. But because there is a small, but dedicated David Simon fanbase that will watch it, it gets tons of critical acclaim and is cheap to make, it keeps getting renewed.

                    Similarly Justified on FX, is a dark and quirky show that is never going to reach the popularity of stuff like CSI. But it's found its niche, got a rabid fanbase and gets enough viewers to cover the cost of the show, make FX money and so they keep renewing it.

                    Now technically SGU was on a niche cable channel, syfy, that specifically catered to science fiction. A point of contention here would be whether it failed because it was poor quality or whether, as I believe, it failed because the audience that would appreciate a show like SGU had already left syfy when the channel decayed into something that mainly showed wrestling and reality tv, but whatever the reason, the fact is what happened to SGU does not spell the end of niche shows. Quite the opposite, as I pointed out, they are doing very well on other networks.
                    For every HBO "niche" series that has succeeded there have been several others that failed. (And Luck was not a niche series) Even Deadwood and Rome, two series with strong fan bases and mainstream critical aclaim were cancelled after just 2 years and there are a host of other HBO series that never made it past season 1. Being on HBO or a premium cable station doesn't guarentee success - but it may mean that the show will get more of a chance. For instance low ratings but lots of mainstream critical acclaim may mean that they will give a series another chance with a season two or even three, but in the end low ratings that cannot cover the cost of production, and has little other benefits to HBO (few new suscribers, little critical acclaim) will mean cancellation. I would add that I would believe that critical acclaim and lots of mainstream talk about their series is important to HBO as that is what likely brings in new subscribers. And why does HBO make these shows? - it wants that show that will bring in lots of new subscribers which equals more money. So in the end, a show with low ratings, little to no mainstream critical acclaim and high production costs will be as doomed on HBO as it would on any network or cable channel.

                    SyFy is not a premium cable channel. It is not basic cable. Most people who "pay extra" for SyFy do so as part of a tier of a group of channels. I pay for a tier of cable channels that includes SyFy, AMC, FX and several others. I could go al carte but that would be more expensive. SyFy is in 99% percent of cable households - the potential audience for any SyFy show is there. And I don't buy the fact that most SyFy viewers left never to return because of wrestling - if a show garners good reviews, lots of talk, publicity etc. viewers will likely tune in to check out what is new - whether they stick around depends on whether or not they like what they are viewing.

                    BSG brought SyFy lots of mainstream critical acclaim, lots of publicity, public recognition, new viewers but not massive ratings - and it had fairly high production costs. If SGU had been able to do what BSG did I would venture to guess it might still be around. As I said in an earlier post SGU a tough road from the get go - because of the high cost of production it had to be successful, if not blockbuster ratings then highly successful in other areas such as mainstream critical acclaim, publicity and recognition.
                    Last edited by EdenSG; 20 April 2012, 08:37 AM.

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                      #85
                      Originally posted by EdenSG View Post
                      For every HBO "niche" series that has succeeded there have been several others that failed. (And Luck was not a niche series) Even Deadwood and Rome, two series with strong fan bases and mainstream critical aclaim were cancelled after just 2 years and there are a host of other HBO series that never made it past season 1. Being on HBO or a premium cable station doesn't guarentee success - but it may mean that the show will get more of a chance. For instance low ratings but lots of mainstream critical acclaim may mean that they will give a series another chance with a season two or even three, but in the end low ratings that cannot cover the cost of production, and has little other benefits to HBO (few new suscribers, little critical acclaim) will mean cancellation. I would add that I would believe that critical acclaim and lots of mainstream talk about their series is important to HBO as that is what likely brings in new subscribers. And why does HBO make these shows? - it wants that show that will bring in lots of new subscribers which equals more money. So in the end, a show with low ratings, little to no mainstream critical acclaim and high production costs will be as doomed on HBO as it would on any network or cable channel.
                      .
                      While shows aren't guaranteed success on HBO they have a far better shot than most other channels. The list of HBO drama's that haven't made it more than 1 season is actually pretty small, in some cases it's simply because the creator decided to do only 1 season, such as the show 'Tell me you love me' HBO offered a second season, but the creator declined.

                      Luck most definitely was a very niche show, it was about a very specific subject, horse racing, and unless you knew about that, or were prepared to sit through a lot of episodes and begin to learn about the rather complex world, the show was unappealing. It had a very small audience, it did not pander or simplify things, but HBO stuck with it, and it would have continued if not for the unfortunate accidents with the horses while they were filming season 2.

                      As for Deadwood and Rome, they were most definitely not niche shows, and the story of their cancellations is rather more complex than HBO just deciding to can them, to tell otherwise either means you don't know the whole story or are being intellectually dishonest. Rome was a co production with the BBC, who pulled out of funding, leaving HBO with a show that cost over $100 million per season, and the sets had just burnt down. Despite that afterwards, HBO actually admitted that cancelling the show was a mistake, it did so well on dvd it would have still remained profitable. As for Deadwood, firstly than went for 3 years, not 2, and David Milch the creator of that show, was offered either a shortened 4th season, or 2 films to wrap things up. Instead he lost interest and decided to do John from Cincinnati instead.

                      HBO aren't above cancelling shows that aren't giving them anything, but they do so much less than other channels. As I explained, their niche shows now are usually smaller and cheaper to produce, and they will keep a show like Treme on because, it's relatively cheap to produce, gets critical acclaim, and keeps David Simon and his fanbase happy. And that's something else HBO are keen on, again unlike other channels, they tend to work with a smaller group of people, like David Milch, David Simon and Terrence Winter, who have a long history with HBO. HBO wants to keep these writers and showrunners happy, because often they have delivered shows that have made them a lot of money and critical acclaim. If someone like David Simon then wants to go off and make Treme, as long as it doesn't haemorrhage them money, then they are more inclined to let him.

                      The fact HBO is also premium tv means that HBO makes a lot more money than other networks off far fewer people. They can afford to keep a show with low audience figures on, because of the vast amount of money they make.


                      SyFy is not a premium cable channel. It is not basic cable. Most people who "pay extra" for SyFy do so as part of a tier of a group of channels. I pay for a tier of cable channels that includes SyFy, AMC, FX and several others. I could go al carte but that would be more expensive. SyFy is in 99% percent of cable households - the potential audience for any SyFy show is there. And I don't buy the fact that most SyFy viewers left never to return because of wrestling - if a show garners good reviews, lots of talk, publicity etc. viewers will likely tune in to check out what is new - whether they stick around depends on whether or not they like what they are viewing.
                      Syfy might be available to 99% of houses with cable, but quite clearly it does not have all of that as a potential audience, neither do other similar channels like AMC. AMC is available to 100 million, yet it's shows get similar numbers to HBO, who only have a subscriber base of 30 million. Syfy shows get on average ratings much lower than HBO shows. As you point out yourself, it gets lumped into a cable package, people are getting syfy whether they are interested or not, unlike HBO which people have to actually subscribe to.

                      And clearly people don't watch a show just because it gets a good buzz, as you yourself pointed out BSG got critical acclaim, yet struggled in the ratings. The Wire has to be a contender for the most critically acclaimed show of all time, yet during it's run it got terrible ratings, Treme is a critical darling yet gets even worse ratings. On Starz you have Boss, with Kelsey Grammer, who won a Golden Globe for his performance and the show got a lot of critical acclaim, yet the show itself has very low ratings, and so on. Critical buzz and publicity do not equal great ratings. Even HBO's mainstream hits, like Game of Thrones, which is hugely critically lauded, and has to be one of the most talked about shows on the net, is far outstripped by what CBS or NBC are making. Game of Thrones may get the buzz, but in ratings its far outreached by CSI:snoreville, or NCIS:Genericville, or whatever God awful versions of those shows they are now running.

                      BSG brought SyFy lots of mainstream critical acclaim, lots of publicity, public recognition, new viewers but not massive ratings - and it had fairly high production costs. If SGU had been able to do what BSG did I would venture to guess it might still be around. As I said in an earlier post SGU a tough road from the get go - because of the high cost of production it had to be successful, if not blockbuster ratings then highly successful in other areas such as mainstream critical acclaim, publicity and recognition
                      I doubt that SGU would have survived, even if it had gained major critical acclaim while airing on syfy. Farscape was a critical darling and they killed it stone dead. Syfy's number one concern is the ratings. Even with BSG and the critical acclaim it bought, if the show had dipped much lower, it would have had it.

                      Fact is if SGU had been on a premium channel like Starz or Showtime, and kept getting the ratings it had in season 2, it would have probably survived. It had higher ratings in season 2 than some of Starz's and Showtime's shows that are expensive to make as SGU. As I said, because of subscribers delivering more money per person than other channels, expensive shows can survive on a lot less viewers. Another key difference is that premium channels care about their overall audience, rather than just the ratings of the initial showing. As long as subscribers are watching the show, be it the initial airing, repeats, DVR's, DVD's or via online services they provide they are happy. This would be of great importance to a show like SGU which a lot of people DVR'd. Even the affect of torrenting the show is reduced, while those who torrent might not pay, they increase the buzz of the show, and often buy the DVD, increasing the profits in the long term.

                      Even if SGU hadn't been on a premium channel but instead somewhere like FX or AMC, it probably would have done better. Those channels look after their dramas, advertise them better, have a good reputation and have built up an audience that likes that style of show. Syfy clearly haven't, their most popular shows are stuff like Warehouse 13 and Eureka, light-hearted action adventure fare. Their drama shows like BSG have struggled (and that show had a lot of action in to keep the typical syfy viewer happy), and that held on in the last couple of years by the skin of its teeth, Caprica bombed and SGU only managed two seasons. There quite clearly isn't the audience for serious drama on Syfy that exists on other channels like AMC or FX.

                      In the end SGU was unlikely to get on a premium channel like HBO or Showtime, or on another Cable Channel like AMC or FX, for a number of other reasons that I explained in an earlier post. But for the sake of argument if it had, it probably would have done much better. There was no guarantee of course, and these channels do of course cancel shows, but the different way that premium channels make money, or the fact that other cable channels like AMC or FX have built up an audience more appreciative of serious drama would suggest that SGU would have had a better chance on those channels. For those same reasons in general niche shows do a hell of a lot better. Yes often they do still get cancelled as they aren't viable, but they have a hell of a better chance than on the major channels that seem to strive for the lowest common denominator, or Syfy which seems desperate to follow them.

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                        #86
                        I was not a big fan of SG-U because....

                        1- Not enough humor. Not nearly enough. Atlantas had a good amount and SG-1 had tons, like the Urgo episode or Window of opportunity. Too much drama without some breaking up of it with humor is bad, bad bad in my opinion. I get enough of that in real life. This is supposed to be entertaining.

                        2-Not a fan of soap ops, relationship drama is ok in small doses, but not the same repetitive drama in every single episode. If other people enjoy soap ops, ok fine, but leave them on the soap op channel. This is scifi, moreover, this is Stargate. Stargate is about exploring the universe, meeting aliens, fighting people, discovering cool technology with some interpersonal relationships thrown in. SG-U was 80% shes dating him who used to date her but switched over well this person is interested in that person but wont say so that said person ends up with that person over there but she dies and he killed her but she was that person so he had to get revenge and now the other guy is depressed.... Thats high school and collage, not Stargate. The roller coaster of oh no we are all gonna die!!! Oh were fine now. We are all gonna die!!! Oh were fine now. We are all gonna die!! Oh were fine now. Just....*Sigh* It was to much in the time allotted, you did not get a break.

                        The second season was much better then the first however I must say.
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                          #87
                          Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
                          I was not a big fan of SG-U because....

                          1- Not enough humor. Not nearly enough. Atlantas had a good amount and SG-1 had tons, like the Urgo episode or Window of opportunity. Too much drama without some breaking up of it with humor is bad, bad bad in my opinion.
                          There were a lot of humor in SGU, but more subtle to fit the tone of the show.
                          Having episodes like Urgo and Window... on SGU would have messed with the shows formula.
                          After 300+ episodes of SG1 and SGA, it was nice to see another take on the subject.

                          Originally posted by Gormagon View Post

                          2-Not a fan of soap ops, relationship drama is ok in small doses, but not the same repetitive drama in every single episode. If other people enjoy soap ops, ok fine, but leave them on the soap op channel. This is scifi, moreover, this is Stargate. Stargate is about exploring the universe, meeting aliens, fighting people, discovering cool technology with some interpersonal relationships thrown in.

                          There's no rule saying Stargate is this or that. Of the three series, my friend have only watched SGU. When he thinks of Stargate, he thinks about SGU. Is that wrong? Of course not.
                          It's amazing we still talk about this after almost three years.

                          Stargate is about exploring the universe - They literally explored the universe, that was the ships mission.
                          meeting aliens - They did
                          fighting people - Yes, both themself, Lucian Alliance and aliens
                          discovering cool technology - Destiny itself? Kinos? Seed ship? The chair? Artificial planet? Drones?


                          Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
                          SG-U was 80% shes dating him who used to date her but switched over well this person is interested in that person but wont say so that said person ends up with that person over there but she dies and he killed her but she was that person so he had to get revenge and now the other guy is depressed
                          This research seems solid and objective.


                          Originally posted by Gormagon View Post
                          The roller coaster of oh no we are all gonna die!!! Oh were fine now. We are all gonna die!!! Oh were fine now. We are all gonna die!! Oh were fine now. Just....*Sigh* It was to much in the time allotted, you did not get a break.
                          You can do a breakdown of that sort to any show and it's sounds stupid.

                          We're gonna die!
                          *McKay fixes it in the last second*

                          We're in danger! Hurry up!
                          *Sam fixes it in the last second*

                          We're screwed!
                          *O'Neill shots the bad guy in the last second*

                          Every sci fi plot have been done over and over again, sometimes it's not the story of an episode that's the interesting part, it's how they present it.

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                            #88
                            We're gonna die!
                            *McKay fixes it in the last second*

                            We're in danger! Hurry up!
                            *Sam fixes it in the last second*

                            We're screwed!
                            *O'Neill shots the bad guy in the last second*
                            couldn't agree more Terra
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                              #89
                              Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                              ...Fact is if SGU had been on a premium channel like Starz or Showtime, and kept getting the ratings it had in season 2, it would have probably survived. It had higher ratings in season 2 than some of Starz's and Showtime's shows that are expensive to make as SGU. As I said, because of subscribers delivering more money per person than other channels, expensive shows can survive on a lot less viewers. Another key difference is that premium channels care about their overall audience, rather than just the ratings of the initial showing. As long as subscribers are watching the show, be it the initial airing, repeats, DVR's, DVD's or via online services they provide they are happy. This would be of great importance to a show like SGU which a lot of people DVR'd. Even the affect of torrenting the show is reduced, while those who torrent might not pay, they increase the buzz of the show, and often buy the DVD, increasing the profits in the long term.

                              Even if SGU hadn't been on a premium channel but instead somewhere like FX or AMC, it probably would have done better. Those channels look after their dramas, advertise them better, have a good reputation and have built up an audience that likes that style of show. Syfy clearly haven't, their most popular shows are stuff like Warehouse 13 and Eureka, light-hearted action adventure fare ...
                              Mighty6, thanks for the info about premium cable channels and their long-term strategies, because I'm only fuzzily aware of this . Syfy seems very short-term, ratings focused as well as mass appeal focused. I like the "personalities" of the channels you describe, because to me it's saying that if you love a show, these channels are patient and cater to niche audiences. Yes, it depends on their relationships to key creators, the critical acclaim and # of subscribers, but at least DVRs or pirating is not fatal. The same with advertising, where ratings are key and depend so much on a show's first airing.

                              Syfy's strategy (if I can guess what it is), is not to be a premium channel, and allow niche audiences. It seems odd to me, because if you go from Scifi to Syfy, and create popcorn flick-type stuff or reality shows connected to scifi or fantasy, you are still a niche channel. By this I mean that scifi and fantasy are niche genres and unless you want smaller audiences, this is self-defeating. Perhaps better to have a premium SciFi channel, for shows like Caprica or SGU, and the SyFy channel to appeal to mass entertainment (i.e. Wrestling, Video Games, light action/comedy and reality shows).

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                                #90
                                Early posters have commented that threads like this have been hashed and rehashed to death. I mean there's only so many Ba'al clones you can put up with, right ?

                                I haven't said this in so many words, but just like having a fan site to share your love and appreciation of "something", talking about a cancelled series helps bring closure, that wasn't found when the series got cancelled. Strangely, I don't feel as strongly talking about SG-1 or Atlantis. I know people love talking about those series, the joy of discovering and re-discovering, but for me, those series had a fair bit of closure.

                                What it means to be attached to a show, almost like spending time with an old friend, or how healthy it is to be a fan of anything is probably a new thread. But as the producer of another fantasy show said, if it helps people heal or create friendships, it matters that the story lived. - Dean

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