Cancel SGU: Bad Series, Blame Network or All the Above?

[Dean Grr]

10 Ways Self-Hating Fans Make Genre Entertainment Worse:

http://io9.com/5902560/10-ways-self+...ium=socialflow

There's a few recent posts in response to things I wrote early on, but I'd like to comment on the above link: I actually liked the list and especially #7 (all junk food is bad), and as an aside, I recently watched Wrath of the Titans and my review posted here on Gateworld touches on #7:
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...5#post13274205

You know, it's funny because I was thinking that the list, and posting it here, is ironic because you guys could be equally accused of the same thing, . By this, I mean that many posts on this thread are from people that love SGU, are disappointed it was cancelled, and are talking about where it went wrong & what it did right. I think those posting the list can be accused of #4(no criticism, please), and if I'm guilty, it's of #10 (promoting self-hate i.e. "Bad Series"), but not by intent: I would have loved a 3rd season of SGU. I guess to play a game, or talk on a forum, you have to take a few hits ...

......

Yes, cause walking in and DEMANDING what you want as "the new kid" is oh so effective isn't it.............

I don't see it as demanding what I want: I see it as offering up a controversial thread (as a devil's advocate, but I loved many parts of Universe i.e. "Light", "Space", "Subversion/Incursion Pt 1" ...). But yeah, I'm not yet really experienced on Forums and didn't anticipate the razzing or thread-drift you mentioned.

PS: I'm not that nice, the responses will stand, if you are TRULY offended by them, ask a mod to delete them and I will not even attempt to fight, fair?

I thought some of the razzing was deserved, but I was worried that by post #17 the thread had been killed. Thankfully, this didn't happen, I'm no longer worried and still think it's important to have differing opinions, even ones I may not like ... - Dean

[psl1]

re renewal

In the end, it was good to have two seasons of SGU than one more of SGA, so Joseph Mallozzi is right about nearly everything. (Ok, I'm really biased towards his opinions :-) I am sure there's also stuff about which Joe just isn't letting us in the know, perhaps even for legal reasons.
....

When I think of "Star Trek: TNG" and "Deep Space Nine", then their first two seasons were much, much worse than the two seasons of SGU, and only from their third seasons did each start getting on track. So this somehow shows how impatient networks sometimes are, clamoring for insta-gratification.

Good post Mardus. How come a guy from Estonia knows more about MGM financial troubles than the average poster here. Basic financial instability within any company is the only real reason they need to act. I've just witness this from an American corporate giant that was invested in one of our local up and coming client companies. Over the course of a weekend the pulled out there funding and the client's staff was cut in half. People were escorted from their work stations to get their personal belongings and kicked out the door, like some common criminal.

I would bet the SGU decision was just as callous as that, they had to cut something and they made a choice. A bad choice, in most of our opinions, but a typical corporate choice. Corporations are not human organizations, they are almost computer organizations. Legally they are not bound by the same moral ethics as we are and can be as inhuman as they can get away with.

Mardus what do people in Estonia think about SGU?

[jeri]

Good post Mardus. How come a guy from Estonia knows more about MGM financial troubles than the average poster here. Basic financial instability within any company is the only real reason they need to act. I've just witness this from an American corporate giant that was invested in one of our local up and coming client companies. Over the course of a weekend the pulled out there funding and the client's staff was cut in half. People were escorted from their work stations to get their personal belongings and kicked out the door, like some common criminal.

I would bet the SGU decision was just as callous as that, they had to cut something and they made a choice. A bad choice, in most of our opinions, but a typical corporate choice. Corporations are not human organizations, they are almost computer organizations. Legally they are not bound by the same moral ethics as we are and can be as inhuman as they can get away with.

Mardus what do people in Estonia think about SGU?

I was well aware of the financial problems, and was not surprised but disappointed in SGU cancellation. My business took a huge hit and I am still trying to recover. What I was annoyed early on was how so many folks pointed to SGU as a "bad" show with such bad ratings as the main reason for the cancellation. In the past other shows with similar ratings issues were given renewals in better fiscal years. I think it was a "perfect storm" that took down the Destiny. Poor ratings, MGM bankruptcy, lack of any kind of funding for projects(film wrap up- Nobody was lending money at that time, let me tell you!) a major shift away from science fiction by the network (Sci-fi to SyFy) I my humble opinion, I think in better times SGU would have continued in some form.

[Gatefan1976]

re renewal
politics, viewership and scheduling

My theory is that
SGU could not be renewed by SyFy, because MGM went into bankruptcy. SyFy's announcement of non-renewal was right between MGM's entering into and emerging from bankruptcy. In the process, all of MGM's previous owners lost ownership of MGM, and one of those previous owners was Comcast (owning 20%), which owns 50% of NBC Universal, which owns SyFy. Both SyFy and MGM committed 50% financing each for SGU.

An interesting theory, yet I would assume that the different divisions of comcast have thier own budgets and concerns to deal with (the good old lefthand/right hand) type of deal. From what we are aware Syfy offered to do both series *at some point*, yet that option was not taken. One could imagine that for Syfy to support both would require higher ratings for both shows, possibly beyond what either show could hope to produce.

It had to be well-known in the business before MGM's bankruptcy that MGM was not in the best financial shape, and the progress of the next Bond movie and "The Hobbit" was in real doubt.

Hell, it was well known in fandom

So getting to produce both SGA and SGU didn't make business sense, because in the end there was room for only one show. The producers felt that SGA had run its course and its quality was lacking (Despite Joe Flanigan's appearances... I just had a thought that instead of McKay, Sheppard and Dr. Keller should have become an item :-). As financial woes of MGM (and the rest of the country) progressed, getting to produce an SGA telefilm appeared increasingly difficult.

See my comment above, it may have been *do-able* but perhaps beyond what both shows could produce in terms of return. If we assume that SGA held it's ratings or close to, it would have probably become no longer finacially viable after the end of S6, and if SGU held it's exact same ratings for S1, it too may not have been finacialy viable for S2.

The viewers
As far as I know, SGU was not syndicated, but a network show, and so had to rely on ratings, and these could only have been gotten from SyFy.

Yup.

One issue regarding financing and viewership is that as far as I know, SyFy had exclusive first-screening rights and everything depended on its ratings only.

Yup

Many other (non-U.S.) networks and channels got SGU very late in its run and then well after it was cancelled. I guess by the time SGU did air on other networks, many people had already seen the episodes and didn't bother to tune in, thus explaining why many non-U.S. networks would eventually stop airing SGU. The picture would probably have been different, had SGU aired simultaneously in as many markets as possible (the way "Lost" and "Desperate Housewives" and many other successful shows did).

I cannot speak for anywhere else, but Scifi Aus was usually only a few days behind the US first run. As for the rest of your point, I agree. While a show pretty much lives or dies on "domestic ratings", the ease of ummm "aquiring" shows is hardly a stretch for anyone with a hi speed net connection which only hurts the international market, and therefore the "gravy" of international follow on sales.

Another issue is SyFy's availability, as the channel was slowly put into a premium cable package (and still showing ads!), and I doubt many households could afford that during a recession.

Last I saw, Syfy was still around 99% penetration of cable subscribers, so I doubt that part, but people outright cancelling subscriptions, that I agree would make an impact.

The scheduling part of the blame is on SyFy having long breaks in-between half-seasons, the other and greater part (of many) was its moving SGU around all the time, thus not allowing viewers to tune in at regular intervals. Killing off the Sci-Fi Friday timeslot had a part in that.

SGU was NOT moved around all the time. It's entire first season was on Friday night. It only changed in S2 by which time it had already had it's ratings hit. Did the change for 2.0 hurt, not according to the ratings which stayed close to the same as the S1 finale. Would they have improved if they stayed on Friday night, who knows. Also, considering a good half million people (so up to a third of the total L+7 audience) were timeshifting/DVRing anyway, I can't give that argument much credence.

Then the problem regarding U.S. viewers is that the overall viewer demographic of SyFy had stagnated in terms of quality, with SyFy getting much of its income from wrestling shows. In light of this, I imagine that getting viewers appreciative of high concept character drama to tune in to SyFy wasn't exactly a task for the meek. Was anyone over there really trying?

Quality is subjective, as such I'm just gonna avoid it m'kay.

So SGU is the kind of show that I think was (and should be, when eventually continued) best suited for HBO and not SyFy. Given that HBO recently had to cancel a lavish horse-racing show, I think SGU could have had a fairly good run over there.

The chances of ANY show being ressuected after cancelation are slim to none, and more leaning to the none. Why would HBO pick up a show that shed half it's live audience in it's first season?

One of the overlooked woes that plague the current tv landscape in the U.S. is that networks expect a show like SGU to be mega-successful right in the first two seasons. Yet I am of opinion that the times when it was possible to replicate the huge successes of the first and second seasons of "Lost" and BSG are over, and for a good show to succeed, networks nowadays have to do more to develop viewership by being consistent and patient; this includes not moving a high-quality show around all the time.

It's not just "shows like SGU" it's ALL shows. If NCIS did not perform in it's first season or two, it would have been canned, V did not live up to expectations, canned. Something we fans often overlook is the fact that TV is not a business to entertain, it is a mass marketing *tool*, the fact that we are entertained is a (happy) side effect.

When I think of "Star Trek: TNG" and "Deep Space Nine", then their first two seasons were much, much worse than the two seasons of SGU, and only from their third seasons did each start getting on track. So this somehow shows how impatient networks sometimes are, clamoring for insta-gratification.

Again, this is an issue of subjective quality and I'm gonna keep out of it.

[myhelix]

There's a few recent posts in response to things I wrote early on, but I'd like to comment on the above link: I actually liked the list and especially #7 (all junk food is bad), and as an aside, I recently watched Wrath of the Titans and my review posted here on Gateworld touches on #7:
http://forum.gateworld.net/threads/8...5#post13274205

You know, it's funny because I was thinking that the list, and posting it here, is ironic because you guys could be equally accused of the same thing, . By this, I mean that many posts on this thread are from people that love SGU, are disappointed it was cancelled, and are talking about where it went wrong & what it did right. I think those posting the list can be accused of #4(no criticism, please), and if I'm guilty, it's of #10 (promoting self-hate i.e. "Bad Series"), but not by intent: I would have loved a 3rd season of SGU. I guess to play a game, or talk on a forum, you have to take a few hits ...

I think the list belongs to all fans, and that what we are, fans. Or else we would not be here on this forum. And I think that what´s the point, fans should not be blind about every mistake TPTB make, but also not over analyzing things so long till it hurt´s everyone.

[Dean Grr]

I think the list belongs to all fans ...

I will admit that I become attached to sci-fi shows, they help me after a long day ... and perhaps that's what I'm analyzing here, my attachment to the show. But, I try to live and let live ... I would still post this thread, still with a provocative title, but I still really enjoyed the show, and looked forward to a 3rd season. I am truely sorry if I lowered anyone's enjoyment of the show, that's not my intention at all.

fans should not be blind about every mistake TPTB make, but also not over analyzing things so long till it hurt´s everyone.

There's certain film critics I like, such as Roger Ebert, but can there be a well accepted criteria for quality? I caught one of the extras on the Season 1 DVD, where Robert Carlyle talks about his acting: how he tries not to play the end, but each moment, and create an authentic performance. I'd say that by season 2.5, the writers, cast, crew were in sync and the show felt authentic to me: I saw people, rather than actors, was pulled into the narrative, which I want to be, rather than being jarred by disbelief (yeah, that's you contrived conflict! ).

As part of a niche audience, I've tried to think, how could a niche show be financially sustainable? SGU just cost too much for its small audience. As I participated in Joe Mallozzi's blog, one thing that came up was that SGU's audience was 50% higher taking into account DVR'd viewing, let alone online viewing. Joe even mentioned the same problem for SGA, that it was unlikely to move past a 6th season because of DVR and online losses.

Should studios and networks provide closure to their audience? Yeah, to be respectful, and retain subscribers, I think so. As the audience, I'd also like alternatives to subscribing to a network (i.e. itunes). However, networks routinely cancel shows as a business decision, and I think, like mentioned above, SGU deserved to be supported over the long term, as Star Trek was, so that it had 5 seasons to develop itself. Or, at least a half season of 10 episodes to complete its story: I think Brad's 15 years of previous Stargate deserved that. - Dean

[Dean Grr]

Being an open-ended thread, I'm not sure there is such a thing as closing thoughts, but ...

Being a Fan ...

I had trouble writing earlier about being a fan, because the "fan" factor can mean really loving something, investing in ideas, making friends and community ... a lot of greater good. It can also mean being really possessive, to the point of harming oneself or others. I think the trouble I have with being or not being a fan, is that I enjoy Universe and Sci-fi for a lot of reasons, and when Stargate ended, it was a loss, but I'm just thankful that it was around for awhile .

As mentioned by Gatefan and others above, tv is used to sell stuff, and while for writers and the audience it's an end in itself, for the owners it's viable only so long as it attracts advertising. Joe Mallozzi's blog had a lot of discussion about changing tv habits, and the use of DVRs and the Internet, and how that kills the advertising model: it's like eating the apple without eating the seeds, no new trees . As newer film techniques are invented and become cheaper to use with time (cgi, digital filming, virtual sets, etc), we'll probably see a renewal of sci-fi scripted shows, whether ad supported or direct buy or subscribe.

I'm truly amazed by Gateworld, and all the love that goes into producing, and appreciating, Stargate. - Dean

[Gatefan1976]

See, I can be serious sometimes

[Dean Grr]

Thanks, Gatefan. I love your posts, too.

[Zombies Rise from the Sea]

While it is true that everybody would like to see their favorite show survive, we must all realize that even the shows that they percieve to be bad but you love (V, FlashForward, Stargate Universe) can't survive for long. It's natural for us to blame things such as the network (when you feel they didn't do enough) or the studio (for not having enough money) or even stuff like DVR or downloading (which is subverted by people who are dedicated enough to finance the show any way they can but is that blame ever going to do anything or make yourselves feel better about yourselves, especially when pointing the blame towards others is just a temporary solution to feel better about the problem; who knows why we fall in love with a show, maybe it contains something that we want, maybe we're hooked to that one element that we love so much, maybe our brains connect to the show in ways we don't know about (especially considering that each person's brains are different.) but the fact that we fall in love with a show is there and the fact that we make a connection to it is undeniable.

Shows like Stargate Universe never got the mass appeal and audience that everybody (including the creators) expected but it did carve out a niche audience, one that would be willing to do anything to save it; including doing the same things that The Sarah Connor Chronicles (a show I liked but don't care much for now.) did to try to save it's show. People want to do anything to save the things they love, donate money, show support; I guess it's human nature, anything that's a big part of our lives will obviously leave a big hole once it goes away and I guess that shared group of people will do anything to save it; what happens when the campaign fails (like Better Off Ted, a show that people of all audiences could of watched because it had quality (I know it's subjective) appeal.) is different, some people shut down and some people try to find others to fill the void; eventually they both move on but they know that they can never truly fill the void that was filled by that one special show going on.

Let's ignore factors such as the quality of a show and whether a show was able to hold it's audience for a minute, let's focus on the fact that a show is going away; people can like a show of any genre, make a connection to it regardless of flaws or deterrents, even if one person watched a local access show, that one person (if they loved the show so much) would obviously be sad that it's going away and would do anything to save it, even if the series itself was unfeasible. We can't control the factors that lead to our shows demise, we can try to do something but except for a few certain cases, the show itself is doomed to fade to obscurity despite our best interests, for a few certain fans (some of us even having good interest), we can't defeat against what the general public wants; what the general public watches (some of the general public did try to get into these shows but jumped ship for reasons unclear to us.), even though some of us feel like the general public should be giving these shows a chance.

Take for instance "Babar", it's been a crown jewel on NBC for over 6 years; (yes, even though I discovered it in 2011, I'm including it with such primetime hits as Heroes, Chuck, Scrubs, 30 Rock, Parks & Rec, Community, Minuteman (yeah, I liked that show), Medium and Law & Order.) it's even had a consistent place on the schedule yet nobody knows that the show exists. There may have been some of you that have watched 9:30 AM on NBC just for that one show, I don't know; nobody seems to know about that show. I was saddened to hear NBC would be taking off the show (well the qubo block) to replace it with NBC Kids, a block I don't care about; I don't care about the programs on the qubo block either but I'm saddened that NBC won't be airing Babar and other people won't get a chance to discover it like I did. I'm probably feeling the same thing you guys are right now and I want to do everything that I can to stop it but I know that they're doing it for business. (considering it's Comcast-owned Sprout that's going to be programming the block, and since it's Comcast-owned, they get all of the money from advertising.)

We all want to see shows like the one mention above on the air, so generations can enjoy it but alas; business and greed wins over subjective quality. The people who like Stargate Universe are sad there aren't going to be new episodes, the people who like Babar are sad other people aren't going to be able to enjoy it or discover it as easily, the people who liked Better Off Ted wished that ABC would of tried it on Wednesdays, just to see if it would work; we're all sad about something but nothing can survive for long, many of them have had short runs, many long but regardless of how long they've run, we always hold some sort of feeling that we don't want to see them gone; letting go of something is hard, hell letting go of Lost after 6 years is especially hard, even seeing The Simpsons in it's zombie-state get canceled is hard because it's been in your life for so long. It lingers in your mind, it bothers you, effects your life and that can be hard because you got a life to live and yet this stuff is in there bothering you; I've been in your shoes a couple of times and eventually I've moved on but I felt like there was something missing because a show has just been taken off the air. We wish we could live in a world where our wishes could come true but we live in reality, and we have to face reality head on or die trying.

Something else I want to add; the cheapening of technology to a point where production of Stargate Universe can be affordable is interesting but it doesn't work for many reasons. 1. Even though TV has it's niches, shows are produced as mass marketing machines intended to be watched by everyone, even if it becomes cheap, what's the point of producing it for a small audience. 2. TV would need to move to a niche format for shows like this to be viable, that means that there would have to be some sort of channel where shows similar to SGU can be placed and watched by other people; Niche's are profitable but to produce a show like SGU for a niche audience can be tough unless placed with other niche's. 3. It would seem like the fans are producing it for themselves instead of for the general public, again; what's the point of a show if no one else can enjoy it (I'm not saying the general public won't like it, I'm just saying that it seems to be done specifically for the fans and nothing else.). Technology will reach a point where anything is possible but it will never reach a point where it will both make SGU profitable while still retaining what gave SGU it's style. No matter whether you use visual sets or fully CGI everything and no matter how photorealistic it is, it still won't replace sets and human actors, and that's a problem that adds up to how much it will cost to produce SGU; it's hard to have it cheap and have it at the same style at the same time.

[Dean Grr]

... people can like a show of any genre, make a connection to it regardless of flaws or deterrents ... and would do anything to save it, even if the series itself was unfeasible. We can't control the factors that lead to our shows demise, we can try to do something but except for a few certain cases, the show itself is doomed to fade to obscurity despite our best interests ...

A great sci-fi show like Stargate can be an escape from personal problems, or help us work through things by watching our favorite characters work through their problems, and this can be true at any age. A cancelled show may feel like losing an old friend (5 galaxies, I mean stages of grief and all that . I've seen actors distance themselves from their roles, because fans appear so attached to them. I would say any story that helps us heal or lift our spirits is a good thing, and that a little compassion would help. It's hard to get invested in a new story, its characters, and then have a studio or network pull the plug without closure, especially ones with a fan base. I don't think Syfy, MGM and others understand this, or perhaps it's not important to their bottom line, like I believe it is, in the long run.

Technology will reach a point where anything is possible but it will never reach a point where it will both make SGU profitable while still retaining what gave SGU it's style. No matter whether you use visual sets or fully CGI everything and no matter how photorealistic it is, it still won't replace sets and human actors, and that's a problem that adds up to how much it will cost to produce SGU; it's hard to have it cheap and have it at the same style at the same time.

I agree partly with this... I loved Japanese Anime and thought they were -the- masters of animation, but after watching 3D-animated films, and series like the Clone Wars, I found it hard to go back, except for my favorite stories. Take Sanctuary, which I used to fill the "void" left by SGU: it uses virtual sets and composite shots, and to my understanding, is a much cheaper show than SGU. With a bit higher ratings, and some cost controls, it could have many more years. I've only watched the trailer, but Falling Skies would be another example. Final Fantasy: Spirits Within is an awesome 3D-animated Japanese film, cool mecha and all, that does photorealism, and I did not mind that these were cgi creations.

Had SGU started more humbly, like the original SG-1 (i.e. spaceships are expensive , or more like Sanctuary, it would have had an easier time. But, as you say, to do that they would have sacrificed SGU's style, its cinematic feel. - Dean

[Gormagon]

They really need to form a committee of fans to approve all scripts before production takes place.....

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Something else I want to add; the cheapening of technology to a point where production of Stargate Universe can be affordable is interesting but it doesn't work for many reasons. 1. Even though TV has it's niches, shows are produced as mass marketing machines intended to be watched by everyone, even if it becomes cheap, what's the point of producing it for a small audience. 2. TV would need to move to a niche format for shows like this to be viable, that means that there would have to be some sort of channel where shows similar to SGU can be placed and watched by other people; Niche's are profitable but to produce a show like SGU for a niche audience can be tough unless placed with other niche's. 3. It would seem like the fans are producing it for themselves instead of for the general public, again; what's the point of a show if no one else can enjoy it (I'm not saying the general public won't like it, I'm just saying that it seems to be done specifically for the fans and nothing else.). Technology will reach a point where anything is possible but it will never reach a point where it will both make SGU profitable while still retaining what gave SGU it's style. No matter whether you use visual sets or fully CGI everything and no matter how photorealistic it is, it still won't replace sets and human actors, and that's a problem that adds up to how much it will cost to produce SGU; it's hard to have it cheap and have it at the same style at the same time.

Eh? There's already tv channels where niche shows survive, it's called premium and cable channels. You have people like HBO who originally built themselves on what was thought to be niche shows, like the Sopranos and the Wire. When they started, many people thought they wouldn't get big audiences, they were dark, violent, complex and demanded a lot from their audiences, yet the Sopranos flourished and gained mass appeal quickly, while the Wire, while it was on air struggled for ratings, became an enormous hit on dvd. And HBO, while today it's major shows like True Blood, Game of Thrones and Boardwalk Empire, are shows with massive popular appeal, they still invest in niche shows like Treme and Luck. Treme is probably the most niche show there has ever been, and has extremely low ratings. But because there is a small, but dedicated David Simon fanbase that will watch it, it gets tons of critical acclaim and is cheap to make, it keeps getting renewed.

Similarly Justified on FX, is a dark and quirky show that is never going to reach the popularity of stuff like CSI. But it's found its niche, got a rabid fanbase and gets enough viewers to cover the cost of the show, make FX money and so they keep renewing it.

Now technically SGU was on a niche cable channel, syfy, that specifically catered to science fiction. A point of contention here would be whether it failed because it was poor quality or whether, as I believe, it failed because the audience that would appreciate a show like SGU had already left syfy when the channel decayed into something that mainly showed wrestling and reality tv, but whatever the reason, the fact is what happened to SGU does not spell the end of niche shows. Quite the opposite, as I pointed out, they are doing very well on other networks.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

They really need to form a committee of fans to approve all scripts before production takes place.....

Ugh, please tell me that's sarcasm. The fanbase is so divided, you would never get a coherant answer.

[Dean Grr]

Thanks Gormagon, it probably sounds that way from this thread, .
But only if the fans are in costume.

[Dean Grr]

... the fact is what happened to SGU does not spell the end of niche shows. Quite the opposite, as I pointed out, they are doing very well on other networks.

Thanks, Mighty 6. SGU would probably be okay on a network like HBO or FX, where its fanbase would have been enough to keep it going. Assuming it got past the committee, of course ...

[LT. COL. John Sheppard]

SGU on HBO ?!?!?!?!?

[Gatefan1976]

CW perhaps...........

[LT. COL. John Sheppard]

Cw?

[Dean Grr]

I think Gatefan is referring to the reality network CW or "Culling Wraiths", where each week a different planet in the Pegasus galaxy is culled, in front of a live Wraith audience. Very popular on Todd's hive ship ... - Dean