The Mechanics of Writing Fiction

[SF_and_Coffee]

So... we seem to have done a fair bit with grammar, spelling, punctuation and other elements here. Anybody want to tackle any of the other technical/mechanical elements of writing?

I'm thinking in terms of things like POV, narrative voice, the pros and cons of writing in 1st person or the various permutations of 3rd person (omniscient 3rd, limited 3rd single-POV, limited 3rd multiple-POV, etc.) and related or similar topics. This all comes to mind because at the moment I find myself helping both a fellow fanfic author via e-mail and a fellow author of original fiction in meatspace and we've been talking about things like this. It could make for an interesting discussion, finding out who prefers to write in which styles and why.

[Cold Fuzz]

So... we seem to have done a fair bit with grammar, spelling, punctuation and other elements here. Anybody want to tackle any of the other technical/mechanical elements of writing, and if so, shall we do it here or make another thread for it?

I'm thinking in terms of things like POV, what narrative voice, the pros and cons of writing in 1st person or the various permutations of 3rd person (omniscient 3rd, limited 3rd single-POV, limited 3rd multiple-POV, etc.) and related or similar topics. This all comes to mind because at the moment I find myself helping both a fellow fanfic author via e-mail and a fellow author of original fiction in meatspace and we've been talking about things like this. It could make for an interesting discussion, finding out who prefers to write in which styles and why.

Very intriguing topics.

One of the pros of the first person, at least for me, has been a greater emotional depth than many of the third-person POV stories I tried in the past. Depending on the story though, 1st person does have limitations, like not being able to give the reader what's happening with the antagonists in a story. There are ways to circumvent this though, especially if the protagonist has the ability to see what's going in places other than he or she is in.

[Whytewytch]

If you're asking for preferences, I usually prefer to write in 3rd multiple POV (easier for romance to dip into the minds of both the hero and heroine). I also prefer the past tense. Something about the present tense just grates on my nerves in fiction writing.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Very intriguing topics.

One of the pros of the first person, at least for me, has been a greater emotional depth than many of the third-person POV stories I tried in the past. Depending on the story though, 1st person does have limitations, like not being able to give the reader what's happening with the antagonists in a story. There are ways to circumvent this though, especially if the protagonist has the ability to see what's going in places other than he or she is in.

This is why I write in limited 3rd-person multi-POV. I find it to be the best of all options, because I can incorporate all kinds of emotional depth simply by exploring the interior thoughts and feelings of whichever character is my narrator in any given scene or chapter, and I can switch narrators at any chapter or scene break in order to let the reader experience the story through a different character's eyes and explore that character's thoughts and feelings as well.

And yes, I write in past tense. I've only read a few stories in present tense that I really liked, although the ones I enjoyed were exceptionally well-written and presented in such a way that they had more impact for being written in present tense than they'd have had if they were written in past tense.

[Cold Fuzz]

If you're asking for preferences, I usually prefer to write in 3rd multiple POV (easier for romance to dip into the minds of both the hero and heroine). I also prefer the past tense. Something about the present tense just grates on my nerves in fiction writing.

This is why I write in limited 3rd-person multi-POV. I find it to be the best of all options, because I can incorporate all kinds of emotional depth simply by exploring the interior thoughts and feelings of whichever character is my narrator in any given scene or chapter, and I can switch narrators at any chapter or scene break in order to let the reader experience the story through a different character's eyes and explore that character's thoughts and feelings as well.

And yes, I write in past tense. I've only read a few stories in present tense that I really liked, although the ones I enjoyed were exceptionally well-written and presented in such a way that they had more impact for being written in present tense than they'd have had if they were written in past tense.

With fiction writing, it's always in past tense for me. I once tried present tense writing once upon a time. It was soooo awkward. I then realized my distaste for present tense fiction writing stemmed from reading William Faulkner in high school.

For technical writing, I end up writing almost always in present tense. That type of writing naturally lends itself to present tense writing more.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Heh. Yeah, I wasn't a huge fan of Faulkner, either, although that stemmed less from his use of present tense than just from his overall tone. Besides, I was starting to get bored with some of the school's literary choices by then...

[fems]

I definitely prefer third person, past tense for reading as well as writing. In my current fic I decided to finally try sticking to one person's PoV per scene/chapter instead of my usual head-hopping style and so far it's going well (18 chapters in). I felt this served the plot best and I've had positive feedback on it from my usual readers.

Overall I don't really like present tense stories although I have no idea why, really. I just tend to get annoyed, the same with first person stories. However, the first person PoV is often simply executed wrongly, especially in fanfics or other unprofessional authors and then I just start to groan and sigh, eventually even commenting aloud how it's not possible to know this or that because the story is in first person!

There is one future fic idea that's been dancing through my head for about a year now that actually has to be written in first person, since it's in the form of a book written by the main character. But I still haven't found the time to actually work it out and when I finished my previous multi-chapter fic I decided to start on another (my current one) instead of that one. Who knows, maybe one day I actually get started on it...

[SF_and_Coffee]

Head-hopping within scenes can be disorienting for the reader, I know that much. I used to write that way, in something akin to omniscient third person. Is that the POV style you usually use?

I've found that tightening my focus to one character per scene or chapter, with strongly-defined POV changes to prevent reader confusion, seems to garner me really good feedback.

A couple of links you might like:

Hugo and Nebula winner Robert J. Sawyer on narrative voice, "Two Heads Aren't Always Better Than One"

Another article on narrative voice (Disclosure: Yes, this one is from my blog.)

[Whytewytch]

My name is Whytewytch and I am a chronic head-hopper. I have gotten better about the whole thing, TBH, with the help of my beta.

Romances tend to lend themselves to head-hopping, particularly between the two leads. Even with that, you have to be careful. I've found that I try to stick to one POV per scene now, even the sex scenes. I keep hearing my beta's voice in my head--"Who has the most to lose? Put it in their POV."

[SF_and_Coffee]

My name is Whytewytch and I am a chronic head-hopper. I have gotten better about the whole thing, TBH, with the help of my beta.

Hello, Whytewytch. I was one, too.

Romances tend to lend themselves to head-hopping, particularly between the two leads. Even with that, you have to be careful.

Hopping from head to head in a story is fine, as long as you don't create the sensation of schizophrenia. If I'm in, say, Lydia's head, I don't really expect to be able to read Richard's mind. But watching the look in his eyes, or feeling the particular way he touches my arm, or hearing the tone of his voice and having all of those be indicative of his thoughts... that's actually a more realistic experience. While I'm the reader who is reading a scene written from Lydia's perspective, I am, in a sense, Lydia, and I want to feel experience and perceive what she perceives.

I might be quite happy to experience the next chapter from Richard's perspective, but at no point do I really need to be both of them at once, because reality doesn't work that way either. Make sense?

I've found that I try to stick to one POV per scene now, even the sex scenes. I keep hearing my beta's voice in my head--"Who has the most to lose? Put it in their POV."

Your beta is wise, and makes a very good point. If you're ever unsure about who has the most to lose, an alternate question to ask yourself might be, whose emotions are going to be strongest or most interesting for the reader to experience? 98% of the time that will be the person who has the most to lose, though sometimes it might not be. Either way, the answer to one of these questions will tell you who the POV character should be.

[fems]

Head-hopping within scenes can be disorienting for the reader, I know that much. I used to write that way, in something akin to omniscient third person. Is that the POV style you usually use?

I used it for my first five multi-chapter fics and then I started my current one where I'm sticking to one PoV per scene/chapter. That style continued for the other five one-shots/ficlets I've written since then.

Hopping from head to head in a story is fine, as long as you don't create the sensation of schizophrenia. If I'm in, say, Lydia's head, I don't really expect to be able to read Richard's mind. But watching the look in his eyes, or feeling the particular way he touches my arm, or hearing the tone of his voice and having all of those be indicative of his thoughts... that's actually a more realistic experience. While I'm the reader who is reading a scene written from Lydia's perspective, I am, in a sense, Lydia, and I want to feel experience and perceive what she perceives.

I might be quite happy to experience the next chapter from Richard's perspective, but at no point do I really need to be both of them at once, because reality doesn't work that way either. Make sense?

It really depends on how you write it, I think. It's not so much as schizophrenia or that Lydia knows everything, but while she can interpret how she perceives Richard (his words, touches, behavior etc) the reader can also see the same thing for Richard in regards to her. By separating their words, actions and thoughts in paragraphs as well as keeping the different paragraphs in character with whoever's PoV you're writing you don't get the confusion.

Like Whytewhytch , I also think it lends itself to romantic scenes very well. By that I don't mean you should change your one PoV per scene/chapter to head-hopping whenever you write a romantic scene, though. You should stick to one style per story or it really will become confusing.

I much prefer reading a head-hopping style (if done well) over a fic where the author writes one scene from one person's PoV and the next is basically the same only from the other person's PoV. Now that I find really annoying.

For my current fic I changed my usual style as a sort of challenge to myself as well as it serving the plot best. As you can see in my sig's summary the leads both have different missions they're keeping from the other, so by sticking to one person per scene the reader has to interpret the other person's words and actions the same way as the PoV character does.

I continued with this style in the one-shots I wrote on the side. At first without really realizing it because I'd become so accustomed to it and when I finally became aware of it I decided to stick with it because I didn't want to confuse myself and it also worked for the story's premise. My ficlets only star one person with the other being mentioned so there really wasn't any choice to be made there!

[SF_and_Coffee]

It really depends on how you write it, I think. It's not so much as schizophrenia or that Lydia knows everything, but while she can interpret how she perceives Richard (his words, touches, behavior etc) the reader can also see the same thing for Richard in regards to her.

That's exactly what makes it feel schizophrenic to me and to a lot of other readers I've discussed it with (some of whom were writers in a fiction workshop I took, which is where I first started really paying attention to this in my own writing). If I've just gotten into Lydia's head and perceptions, to suddenly be flung into Richard's head with no warning is disorienting. I don't need to know how Richard feels at that moment; I can interpret that along with Lydia, and I'd rather continue in her experience. Staying in one character's head through an entire scene helps me to identify better with the characters and experience the story with them, rather than feeling as though some outside entity is just telling me the story. It's far more intimate for the reader to experience the story than to simply have it told to them, I think.

By separating their words, actions and thoughts in paragraphs as well as keeping the different paragraphs in character with whoever's PoV you're writing you don't get the confusion.

For me, unless there's been a clear change, it's confusing. A paragraph doesn't provide me with enough indication that POV has changed, and I find myself reading for a few sentences and thinking, 'huh?' until it finally clicks that I'm now in someone else's head, at which time I usually have to go back and re-read those sentences with the new mindset. If by that time the author then goes and sends me back a sentence later into the first character's head or someone else's, it's sometimes enough to make me stop enjoying the story. If it happens enough times, it can be enough to make me stop reading. I've given up on several otherwise good stories where that happened a lot, because I just couldn't take the constant changes.

Like Whytewhytch , I also think it lends itself to romantic scenes very well. By that I don't mean you should change your one PoV per scene/chapter to head-hopping whenever you write a romantic scene, though. You should stick to one style per story or it really will become confusing.

A romantic scene is very definitely something that as a reader I want to experience from only one character's POV, because then I feel almost as though I'm actually experiencing the romantic interlude myself. Vicarious thrills for the reader are a huge part of the appeal of a romantic scene. Reading it from both character's POV simultaneously takes it back to the level where I'm being told the story by some disinterested third party, and removes much of the intensity that makes such a scene enjoyable. It's essentially on the same level as preferring to have a romantic encounter rather than watching two other people have one.

I much prefer reading a head-hopping style (if done well) over a fic where the author writes one scene from one person's PoV and the next is basically the same only from the other person's PoV. Now that I find really annoying.

I'll definitely agree with you on that! Fortunately, I've encountered very few stories where the author does that. There's rarely any need to tell the same scene from multiple POV, whether simultaneously OR in sequence. When I change POV, I don't go back and cover the same material I've just covered. The story continues, just from a different POV. Now, if Character A was the POV character in a particular scene, I might -- several chapters later -- have Character B recall or reflect upon a portion of that same scene from his or her own POV if it's important to the story for the reader to experience Character B's perception of it, but I won't do that for more than a few lines, and generally not more than once or twice in a story.

For my current fic I changed my usual style as a sort of challenge to myself as well as it serving the plot best. As you can see in my sig's summary the leads both have different missions they're keeping from the other, so by sticking to one person per scene the reader has to interpret the other person's words and actions the same way as the PoV character does.

That's really the whole idea behind character-POV narration rather than disembodied-narrator POV. Personally, I love it when as a reader I am in a character's head and perceptions, because it keeps my interest so much more strongly. It's a lot like living the story. Wondering a little bit about what is going on adds interest and tension, whereas if I know everything that's happening because an uninvolved narrator told me, I'm likely to be bored after a while.

I continued with this style in the one-shots I wrote on the side. At first without really realizing it because I'd become so accustomed to it and when I finally became aware of it I decided to stick with it because I didn't want to confuse myself and it also worked for the story's premise. My ficlets only star one person with the other being mentioned so there really wasn't any choice to be made there!

That's a nice simple situation that makes a writer's job easy!

[fems]

That's exactly what makes it feel schizophrenic to me and to a lot of other readers I've discussed it with (some of whom were writers in a fiction workshop I took, which is where I first started really paying attention to this in my own writing).

[...] It's far more intimate for the reader to experience the story than to simply have it told to them, I think.

For me, unless there's been a clear change, it's confusing. A paragraph doesn't provide me with enough indication that POV has changed, and I find myself reading for a few sentences and thinking, 'huh?' until it finally clicks that I'm now in someone else's head, at which time I usually have to go back and re-read those sentences with the new mindset. If by that time the author then goes and sends me back a sentence later into the first character's head or someone else's, it's sometimes enough to make me stop enjoying the story. If it happens enough times, it can be enough to make me stop reading. I've given up on several otherwise good stories where that happened a lot, because I just couldn't take the constant changes.

Obviously it's not well executed then because while there are head-hopping fics that are confusing (especially if the author uses a new line/paragraph for every spoken line) there are also good ones. I've never had any complaints about my style from readers or remarks about it being confusing/schizophrenic-like.

A romantic scene is very definitely something that as a reader I want to experience from only one character's POV, because then I feel almost as though I'm actually experiencing the romantic interlude myself. Vicarious thrills for the reader are a huge part of the appeal of a romantic scene. Reading it from both character's POV simultaneously takes it back to the level where I'm being told the story by some disinterested third party, and removes much of the intensity that makes such a scene enjoyable.

Just because it's head-hopping doesn't mean you're only being told about it. Again, if it's written well you'll definitely feel like you're experiencing it with all the characters and not just one person. After all there are certain things your PoV character simply can't know about the others and that can't be interpreted because the other character(s) don't show any outward reactions.

Wondering a little bit about what is going on adds interest and tension, whereas if I know everything that's happening because an uninvolved narrator told me, I'm likely to be bored after a while.

It all depends on how it is told. You're making it sound like it's the same as reading a manual or something, but it's not that hard to still get readers engaged in the story if you're not just sticking to one PoV.

To be clear; I don't have any problems with sticking to one character's PoV per scene/chapter but I can also enjoy a head-hopping PoV as long as it's well written. I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Seaboe Muffinchucker]

Are you going to discuss plotting? Like the basic problem solving plot: try, fail, try, fail and make things worse, try, succeed.

As for head-hopping, it's a personal taste thing and while I'm not fond of it, the only time I find it confusing is when an author head-hops in the middle of a paragraph. Then again, IME, an author who head-hops then probably doesn't have a lot of the other skills I consider necessary. I'd probably stop reading and not start again, and I'd approach that author with extreme caution in future.

Seaboe

[SF_and_Coffee]

Obviously it's not well executed then because while there are head-hopping fics that are confusing (especially if the author uses a new line/paragraph for every spoken line) there are also good ones. I've never had any complaints about my style from readers or remarks about it being confusing/schizophrenic-like.

Oh jeez, don't get me started on the "new paragraph for every spoken line thing!" But no, seriously, being in a different character's head every few sentences with no warning of the shift really DOES disorient me when I'm reading a story, and usually will make me stop reading it after a while. I've never read a fanfic where it was done well, and I've never read a professionally-published book that was written that way at all. Acquisitions editors nearly always reject stuff like that, and if they don't reject the story outright, they ask the author to rewrite in such a way as to eliminate the head-hopping. (Yes, that's a link to an article by a professional fiction editor addressing this very topic. Here's another. Also, an extremely good one from a writer's perspective, detailing reasons to limit POV rather than head-hopping.)

Just because it's head-hopping doesn't mean you're only being told about it.

It makes me feel that way. If I'm experiencing something, I can only experience it as one person at a time. Copious head-hopping reminds me that I'm reading a story, because it chops things up too much and I lose the stream of consciousness. It also tends to expose too much of the underlying machinery of storytelling, and that also serves to remind me that this is just a story.

Again, if it's written well you'll definitely feel like you're experiencing it with all the characters and not just one person.

I think that's part of the perceptual issue for me; I don't need or want to be in all the character's heads during a single scene. That's entirely too much information and emotion to process, and makes it difficult for me to track what's going on. It distracts me from the story and eventually I give up and look for something else to read.

After all there are certain things your PoV character simply can't know about the others and that can't be interpreted because the other character(s) don't show any outward reactions.

But are those things the reader needs to know in order to understand the scene? And if they are, then why aren't the other characters showing any evidence of them? Tone of voice, body language, gesture, facial expression... if your characters don't have any of those, then why not? And if they're deliberately hiding thing from the POV character, then maybe the reader doesn't need to know those things right then. Anything your reader does need to know right then can and should be conveyed either by things your POV character can pick up on. If the POV character doesn't need to know something right then, it can be saved for another scene when you've switched POV to the other person. If it's something specific to that earlier scene, your new POV character can reflect briefly on his/her own thoughts from the earlier scene.

Also, too much information is as bad as, and sometimes worse than, too little. Leaving something to the imagination, or weaving a little bit of question and suspense often improves the experience for the reader. Your current POV character can always speculate and wonder what might be going on in the other character's heads.

See, the thing is, if you're writing in omnsicient third, none of your characters is ever the POV character and therefore your narrator is an uninvolved outsider. Stories told by uninvolved outsiders really don't grab me and draw me in the way stories told by narrators who are actually characters in the story do, although some people do enjoy stories in omniscient third more than I do, I'll admit that. I find I'm more detached from characters I've been told about rather than characters with whom I experience the story and can identify.

When you write from within the POV of a character that character becomes, in essence, your narrator. Changing narrators every few sentences is simply less effective as a storytelling method, and runs a high risk of confusing or even alienating the reader, and that's true for a high percentage of readers, which is why you don't find many publishers (at least in English) buying manuscripts that are written this way.

It all depends on how it is told. You're making it sound like it's the same as reading a manual or something, but it's not that hard to still get readers engaged in the story if you're not just sticking to one PoV.

No, not like a manual, but either an uninvolved narrator (if the story is in omniscient third) or confusing as all hell, (if it's in limited third but head-hopping every few sentences). The first fails to draw me in and the second is confusing.

To be clear; I don't have any problems with sticking to one character's PoV per scene/chapter but I can also enjoy a head-hopping PoV as long as it's well written. I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

If I'm in a new head every paragraph, to me that's one of the definitions of 'not well-written'... it isn't a story I can enjoy. Every scene, fine; but every paragraph is just too much for me to find comfortable. It's like sitting down to eat dinner, and being asked to get up and move to a different chair between each bite. POV shifts within scenes can be done well, but only if they're the exception rather than the rule and only when the reader is given some warning.