Evidence for how Ancient Drones work.

[webxro]

That's the point i am trying to make they have the base idea , but a asuran drone is not a real drone , and a asuran shield is not a shield ( come on a 302 with a rocket decimated a aurora) . My base idea is that there are shields that can stand to a drone attack but there aren't any shields that could stand to the dakara is because dakara is more powerful then a single drone.

Dakara shield explains all drone powers on a single source , we have things that ignore shields and we have mater going away without any melting any visible residue .

The puddle has simply the same effect as the actual WH but because no actual full connection is established in that moment the atoms simply go into subspace as energy .If you can't replicate a WH for each drone you won't have the same effect.

Also Dakara works by sending a energy wave that destroys bonds between atoms , if you want it to kill all live you program it to target the bonds that form the DNA and i suspect that in case of the drones it simply affects everything it touches

[darth_timon]

Anything that opens a hole in a shield, or finds a way through without employing brute force, can be construed as bypassing the shield.

[webxro]

If the shield is plasma based even a magnet could do it , i but i can't find many explanations for mater decimating effect.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

That's the point i am trying to make they have the base idea , but a asuran drone is not a real drone , and a asuran shield is not a shield ( come on a 302 with a rocket decimated a aurora) . My base idea is that there are shields that can stand to a drone attack but there aren't any shields that could stand to the dakara is because dakara is more powerful then a single drone.

Dakara shield explains all drone powers on a single source , we have things that ignore shields and we have mater going away without any melting any visible residue .

The puddle has simply the same effect as the actual WH but because no actual full connection is established in that moment the atoms simply go into subspace as energy .If you can't replicate a WH for each drone you won't have the same effect.

Also Dakara works by sending a energy wave that destroys bonds between atoms , if you want it to kill all live you program it to target the bonds that form the DNA and i suspect that in case of the drones it simply affects everything it touches

I was wrong about the puddle recreation thing, got the diologue of 48 hours (SG1 season 5) mixed around in my head, a gate stores a pattern on it's exiting end, but you were right about going through the start of the process, the puddle is the start of the wormhole.
I guess a Drone could have a Dakara like field surrounding it.

Anything that opens a hole in a shield, or finds a way through without employing brute force, can be construed as bypassing the shield.

Use of the term bypass can only be construed as a way around.
When talking about a shield, it's a bubble, it's not one path way that you can go around.
If bypass has been used in any way to beat a sphere or oval shaped shield then it's a wrong use of the word bypass.
If you were talking about a flat shield, that prevents someone from walking through a corridoor and you busted through the walls and made another passage around then that would be a bypass.
If something is going through a sphere or oval shield and doing so within the vacume of our dimension/space time then it's always penetration, it can never be a bypass.

If the shield is plasma based even a magnet could do it , i but i can't find many explanations for mater decimating effect.

It could be a nano interaction of some sort.
On the nano scale dissassembly is relatively easy, we can even move atoms around with equipment that exists today, so really such a thing should be easy for the Ancients.

[darth_timon]

Use of the term bypass can only be construed as a way around.
When talking about a shield, it's a bubble, it's not one path way that you can go around.
If bypass has been used in any way to beat a sphere or oval shaped shield then it's a wrong use of the word bypass.
If you were talking about a flat shield, that prevents someone from walking through a corridoor and you busted through the walls and made another passage around then that would be a bypass.
If something is going through a sphere or oval shield and doing so within the vacume of our dimension/space time then it's always penetration, it can never be a bypass.

The word bypass also means 'to circumvent' or 'to avoid, using an alternative channel or passage' (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bypass)

Bearing in mind that we still have the lack of shield interaction here (which would be apparent if the drones were striking the shield and penetrating that way), bypassing the shield, regardless of it's bubble shape, remains a possibility.

Matching frequencies makes shields extremely porus in other franchises. The BOP in Generations was able to fire through the shields of a far more powerful Enterprise by matching frequences, where otherwise her weapons would have been useless. It was a trick that effectively bypassed the shields, because the shields were then useless- they might as well have been down.

The alternative- that drones can phase through shields- remains an option. It would still explain why there is no visible shield interaction, whilst allowing the possibility to interact with solid matter (for the properties of an energy shield and a physical object are not the same). Drones might phase in and out of our dimension so quickly we don't see them do it.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The word bypass also means 'to circumvent' or 'to avoid, using an alternative channel or passage' (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bypass)

It states "to avoid, using an alternate passage", which wouldn't work passing through the shield.
It's in no way going around the shield, a Drone is going through the shield, so it's not avoiding the shield.

Look at the Merriam Webster definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bypass

: a passage to one side; especially : a deflected route usually around a town
2
a : a channel carrying a fluid around a part and back to the main stream b (1) : shunt 1b (2) : shunt 1c; also : a surgical procedure for the establishment of a shunt <have a coronary bypass>

A passage to one side.
The Drones are never going to one side of the shield to go through it, that just doesn't work using the word Bypass, not if you're using it correctly.

Bearing in mind that we still have the lack of shield interaction here (which would be apparent if the drones were striking the shield and penetrating that way), bypassing the shield, regardless of it's bubble shape, remains a possibility.

Drones are not bypassing, because they are going through the shield.
They are passing the wall, the act of actually going through doesn't allow for bypass to the correct word to describe going through.

Matching frequencies makes shields extremely porus in other franchises. The BOP in Generations was able to fire through the shields of a far more powerful Enterprise by matching frequences, where otherwise her weapons would have been useless. It was a trick that effectively bypassed the shields, because the shields were then useless- they might as well have been down.

What happens in Star Trek is neither here or there in this debate.
Anyway, the Bird of Prey's weapons went through the shields, they penetrated, they didn't go around the shield.
Bypass would be an incorrect use of the word.
Matching frequencies doesn't make the shield anything other than what it was when it was raised, it actually changes the shields surround a torpedo or alters the energy of the energy weapons to be the same as that of the shields, hense they go through.
Matching frequencies wouldn't even be making a passage through the shield, it would be making the weapon the same as the shield your attacking.

The alternative- that drones can phase through shields- remains an option. It would still explain why there is no visible shield interaction, whilst allowing the possibility to interact with solid matter (for the properties of an energy shield and a physical object are not the same). Drones might phase in and out of our dimension so quickly we don't see them do it.

We've never seen a Drone travel into another dimension or alter the state of matter or anything to indicate that they phase.
Phasing into another dimension has always taken more than a split second, given how Phasing has been represented on the show it never takes nano seconds.

If a Drone phased at all then it wouldn't interact with solid matter, they clearly always interact with matter when they come into contact with it.

[darth_timon]

As I've mentioned before, we see no interaction with the shield, therefore we can't conclude there is interaction. You've suggested before that the interaction might be so brief that we wouldn't see a shield glow, but it remains unproven that drones come into contact with shields.

[darth_timon]

It states "to avoid, using an alternate passage", which wouldn't work passing through the shield.
It's in no way going around the shield, a Drone is going through the shield, so it's not avoiding the shield.

Look at the Merriam Webster definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bypass


A passage to one side.
The Drones are never going to one side of the shield to go through it, that just doesn't work using the word Bypass, not if you're using it correctly.

Not if we use the word in the most literal sense, but without evidence to show drones are impacting or interacting with the shield in a manner which imparts energy to cause shield failure (even localised shield failure) it cannot be argued that drones are penetrating shields either. The definition of penetrate is to enter by overcoming resistance, or to pass into. This means some level of contact with between the penetrator and the object. There's no evidence to support this happening.

Drones are not bypassing, because they are going through the shield.
They are passing the wall, the act of actually going through doesn't allow for bypass to the correct word to describe going through.

Then what is the best word to describle something that can get through the shield without imparting any energy to do so?

What happens in Star Trek is neither here or there in this debate.
Anyway, the Bird of Prey's weapons went through the shields, they penetrated, they didn't go around the shield.
Bypass would be an incorrect use of the word.
Matching frequencies doesn't make the shield anything other than what it was when it was raised, it actually changes the shields surround a torpedo or alters the energy of the energy weapons to be the same as that of the shields, hense they go through.
Matching frequencies wouldn't even be making a passage through the shield, it would be making the weapon the same as the shield your attacking.

So... if the shield and the weapon are the same, no energy is being exchanged between the two, thus no brute force, thus no energy transfer bringing down the shield... which is a distinct possibility for drones, no?

We've never seen a Drone travel into another dimension or alter the state of matter or anything to indicate that they phase.
Phasing into another dimension has always taken more than a split second, given how Phasing has been represented on the show it never takes nano seconds.

Doesn't preclude the possibility.

If a Drone phased at all then it wouldn't interact with solid matter, they clearly always interact with matter when they come into contact with it.

As I've explained before, the properties of physical matter and energy shields are not the same. You can't use one as an example to contradict the other, especially when the drones would have to come into contact with matter anyway to damage a ship.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

As I've mentioned before, we see no interaction with the shield, therefore we can't conclude there is interaction. You've suggested before that the interaction might be so brief that we wouldn't see a shield glow, but it remains unproven that drones come into contact with shields.

As I've mentioned before it's never been either stated or shown that Drones ever leave this plane of existence, they would need to in order to bypass the shield.
In order to prove that a Drone isn't interacting with the shield you have to prove that the Drone is not affecting a shield in some way.
Even if a Drone has a shield or energy field that is exactly the same as the shield or energy field it's becoming a part of, whilst traveling through it, it would still have to interact with the shield, because it's within this universe, the Drone's energy shield is making the closest possible contact or interaction with it's enemy's shield.

It's occured to me that we do have proof that Drones do in fact interact with shields, in the Return Part 2 a Puddle Jumper has been shown with it's shields glowing as an Ancient Drone bounces off of it's shield.
See this video at around 1:55:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7k2dhVTILQ
This piece of evidence clearly shows that a Puddle Jumper Shields existing within this dimension are interacting with the Drone(s).

Not if we use the word in the most literal sense, but without evidence to show drones are impacting or interacting with the shield in a manner which imparts energy to cause shield failure (even localised shield failure) it cannot be argued that drones are penetrating shields either. The definition of penetrate is to enter by overcoming resistance, or to pass into. This means some level of contact with between the penetrator and the object. There's no evidence to support this happening.

Actually the most literal use of the word would be "I bypassed the shield by traveling around it", you can't do that with a bubble, unless you "passed into another dimension and went around the shield".
You can't say "I bypassed the/a shield by going through it" it just doesn't work as a sentence no matter what way you look at it.
You have in no way proven that a Drone is going somewhere else to go around the shield, there is no way a Drone can both exist in this universe and another simultaneously, so the fact that we see them interact means they exist within this universe that we live in.
As I pointed out above there is interaction within this universe shown in the video I linked up there.

Then what is the best word to describle something that can get through the shield without imparting any energy to do so?

Well a Drone has to be interacting in some way, it still exists within this universe, proven by The Return Part 2 and The Tower and a number of other episodes we've seen them in.
In The Return the Drone(s) are clearly imparting something on the shield, they're not being resisted yes, but that could be for any reason, fact here is now with this piece of evidence there is seriously no way a Drone is phasing, so it can't be bypassing.
Penetration doesn't require force in a powerful manner, interaction is clearly happening and Penetrating is the only suitable term to describe what a Drone is doing.

So... if the shield and the weapon are the same, no energy is being exchanged between the two, thus no brute force, thus no energy transfer bringing down the shield... which is a distinct possibility for drones, no?

Well the Drone's energy barrier is becoming a part of the shield, if the Shield Matching Theory is correct.
Also if the Matter Dissassembler or General Dissassembler theory is correct then it doesn't have to impart energy at all, all it has to do is extract energy particles or plasma (which would be a state of matter) or in the case of a solid wall made of atoms from the area it wants to go through.
It has to be one or the other of these theories given the evidence we have.

Doesn't preclude the possibility.

As pointed out above The Return part 2 actually does preclude the possibility that a Drone is phasing.
If you start saying "what if the SGA team made the shields of the Jumper able to shield from the dimension the Drone goes into" you really would be grasping at straws.
Drones exist within this dimension, they interact on every level within this dimension and have never been shown to pass into another plane of existence.

As I've explained before, the properties of physical matter and energy shields are not the same. You can't use one as an example to contradict the other, especially when the drones would have to come into contact with matter anyway to damage a ship.

Well since the shields exist in this dimension and matter exists within this dimension if it was possible that Drones were phasing they'd have more trouble with the shields (being that shields are always harder to penetrate than matter), you're talking about something that can withstand more force than solid matter supposedly can.
Since I've proven that Drones exist within this dimension when trying to penetrate shields (given the Return Part 2 example) your idea that Drones are phasing is impossible, they wouldn't phase through one shield and not through another, especially on a small craft that can barely withstand the weapons of a Hive, let alone a Drone that is far more powerful than a Hive pulse.

[thekillman]

i thought we already agreed that drones penetrate shields?

phasing makes no sense. why do drones penetrate hulls? it would be much easier to phase right through matter if they can phase through shields.


Dakaran energy fields have proven to not just penetrate, but actually wholly IGNORE shields.

the other examples are whatever shield frequency modulation field 302's use to pass through shields. (for clarification: when entering/exiting the hangars and when going through the 304's shields (both ways)).

notice that THAT does not produce a glow either.

shields only glow when they resist something. it can be considered a byproduct of the shield's energy absorbtion.


this means that a Jumper CAN withstand drones. given that Mckay couldn't turn the shield back to a cloak because of "the damage they took", i'd say the Jumper tried to block the drone but the drone was too powerful for it's shield.


Both the APBW and the Drone have shown to penetrate shields. the APBW seems to do it based upon sheer power (i believe it produed a glow), the Drone seems to cause a shield to ignore it as a whole.


either way, Dakara fields and a shield frequency modulator can do thatr.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

i thought we already agreed that drones penetrate shields?

That's what the evidence shows, I don't see why anyone could be thinking that they do anything else but penetrate.

phasing makes no sense. why do drones penetrate hulls? it would be much easier to phase right through matter if they can phase through shields.

Thank you, an energy barrier has always been shown to be harder to get passed, if the Ancients could phase through shields, then they would be able to phase through matter.
Phasing has always been shifting into another dimension or plane of existence, just outside of our observable space and time.
Matter and energy shields both exist within this dimension, but energy barriers being a field of energy never appear to be effected by weapons or even transporter technology, case in point here is the Asgard's transporter tech, it can pass through anything save for energy shields or Wraith jamming tech.

Dakaran energy fields have proven to not just penetrate, but actually wholly IGNORE shields.

the other examples are whatever shield frequency modulation field 302's use to pass through shields. (for clarification: when entering/exiting the hangars and when going through the 304's shields (both ways)).

notice that THAT does not produce a glow either.

Very good points.

shields only glow when they resist something. it can be considered a byproduct of the shield's energy absorbtion.

This was something I repeatedly stated in the ST Vs SG ships thread.
Passing through, penetrating in whatever way a Drone does doesn't produce this because Drones aren't being either absorbed or resisted on a Ha'Tak or Asuran Aurora's shields.
This constant belief that all weapons should produce this glow on a shield is entirely unsupported because Drones are going through the shield, they aren't impacting the shields in a kinetic force impact kind of way or spreading energy that is being absorbed by the shields.
Drones don't have to exert energy on a shield to get through, like I said before extracting or distabalizing the energy of a shield wouldn't spread energy over the shield, having the same energy of your enemy's shield surrounding your ship effectively would allow for resistence, passing through with ease.

this means that a Jumper CAN withstand drones. given that Mckay couldn't turn the shield back to a cloak because of "the damage they took", i'd say the Jumper tried to block the drone but the drone was too powerful for it's shield.

I'd agree with this, maybe some connection fried the system.

Both the APBW and the Drone have shown to penetrate shields. the APBW seems to do it based upon sheer power (i believe it produed a glow), the Drone seems to cause a shield to ignore it as a whole.

Yep, APBWs don't seem to have to completely dran the whole shield to get through, but the glow does seem to indicate that Drones and APBWs do penetrate in slightly different ways.
APBWs applying energy, Drones extracting or matching.

either way, Dakara fields and a shield frequency modulator can do that.

Yeah, the Dakara field could eat or distabilize things it comes into contact with and pass through an energy barrier, so it could be doing both things, I doubt Frequency Modulation or Shield Matching would be beyond the Ancients.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

If phasing were occuring then it would make little sense to use any matter/energy eating or distabilizing technology at all.
As I've said time and time again on this topic if you have a weapon that can just pass through anything to get to your target, then it would be far more efficient to just send one weapon to the power source and simply blow it up.
Wraith ships would be taken out with a single Drone, the Super Hive simply stopping Drones with slightly thicker and Denser armor (and nothing else) shows that Drones aren't phasing, phasing sends something slightly outside our perceptive space, basically another area of the universe, at least that's how it's shown in Sci-Fi, this would basically make having thicker and denser armor pointless, because you'd slip passed that anyway.

[darth_timon]

The fundamental question is, if there is no shield glow how can it be argued that the drones are imparting energy to the shield? If they matching frequencies to pass through they are not applying energy to the shield. If they are unable to match frequencies against a particular shield this explains why she see shield contact on other occasions (Like against Ancient or Asgard shields, which may not operate on the same principles).

It would make sense that Ancient shields can repel drones. They designed them!

BTW, does anyone else play Star Trek Online?

[thekillman]

The fundamental question is, if there is no shield glow how can it be argued that the drones are imparting energy to the shield?

i am not sure what your fundamental question is, nor am i sure why you consider it fundamental.


whenever a weapon impacts a shield, there's a glow. when a drone penetrates a shield, there is none. ergo, drones do not exert a "force" on a shield.


there can be energy exchange. you can consider what Drones do to shields, similar to what the 3 lights in Atlantis do to Janus' secret lab door.

[darth_timon]

A shield is designed to repel energy and physical objects, absorbing firepower until the limits of the shield are reached and the shield collapses.

When energy weapons or physical objects strike a shield in Stargate this is characterised by the shield glowing. Drones don't produce this glow, so somehow they are getting through shields without using brute force.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The fundamental question is, if there is no shield glow how can it be argued that the drones are imparting energy to the shield?

I've certainly not been arguing that a Drone is acting like a bullet or an energy pulse, imparting a physical force or pressure on a shield to get through it.

I may have said an energy shield, produces damage in a similar way to an energy weapon, in hindsight I don't think the two are comparable except for saying they do damage.

Why would you assume from what I or anyone else arguing that a Drone does it's thing existing within this dimension, that Ancient Drones are breaking through with sheer macro scale force?

If they matching frequencies to pass through they are not applying energy to the shield.

In shield matching the Drone's field would be made up of the same polarity energy particles or field as the Shield it's going through, so it would be applying a form of energy that is the same as the energy shield it's going through, it's still applying a form of energy, just one that will not be resisted by the enemy's energy shield, hence why in the case of Stargate no visible glow is being observed.

If they are unable to match frequencies against a particular shield this explains why she see shield contact on other occasions (Like against Ancient or Asgard shields, which may not operate on the same principles).

This is because of resistence.
Absorbtion of energy would produce this glow too, but I'd see it as more of an activity or maybe hardening, density of whatever the Force Field is made of.

It would make sense that Ancient shields can repel drones. They designed them!

Of course the Ancients knew how Drones worked or at least one would assume they had an in depth knowledge of the inner workings of the device.
The shield surrounding the Jumper was a tweaked Ancient cloaking generator, I don't think it was said that the Ancients intended PJs to have a shield, but I guess the cloak is a field generator of some kind, which because of the visible glow in our space time and visible resistence proves that the Drone isn't phasing or disappearing into another dimension to try and pass the shield.

BTW, does anyone else play Star Trek Online?

I've been playing for a while, got up to level 50 now.

i am not sure what your fundamental question is, nor am i sure why you consider it fundamental.


whenever a weapon impacts a shield, there's a glow. when a drone penetrates a shield, there is none. ergo, drones do not exert a "force" on a shield.


there can be energy exchange. you can consider what Drones do to shields, similar to what the 3 lights in Atlantis do to Janus' secret lab door.

There could be energy extraction or distabilizing of whatever makes up the shield.
Or maybe a neutralizing of the properties of the shield.

A shield is designed to repel energy and physical objects, absorbing firepower until the limits of the shield are reached and the shield collapses.

When energy weapons or physical objects strike a shield in Stargate this is characterised by the shield glowing. Drones don't produce this glow, so somehow they are getting through shields without using brute force.

Nobody is arguing that a Drone is using basic force like kinetic energy or radiation to break down a shield in a brute force manner.
It's been said many times here and in ST Vs SG ships that a shield produces this glow because of resistance.

I'd say the likely difference between Asgard, Goauld and Human weapons is Macro forces in an unfocused manner, compared to the Ancient's Micro or Nano force interactions with a target.
This difference would explain why there's little fallout from Ancient weapons and why denser and thicker armor of a ZPM powered Hive could resist them.

[darth_timon]

So are we in agreement of sorts now? Drones have some fancy mechanism for getting through shields by matching frequencies with the target's shields. This enables it to push through, at least against less sophisticated shields like those on Goauld ships. It wouldn't matter how much power they transferred to their shields, they'd still be vulnerable.

Asgard shields are more advanced, and don't share this vulnerability.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

So are we in agreement of sorts now?

Don't know, you didn't say whether or not you've disregarded the idea of phasing in place of shield matching or distabilization.

Drones have some fancy mechanism for getting through shields by matching frequencies with the target's shields. This enables it to push through, at least against less sophisticated shields like those on Goauld ships.

It could be mechanisms, as in plural.
It would make sense for an advanced race to make an adaptive weapon that could adjust itself.
The way Drones go through matter could easily point to them effecting the bonds between atoms and energy particals or the general make-up of an energy shield, thus the majority of shields we've seen used against them provide no resistance and appear as though the shields aren't even there.

It wouldn't matter how much power they transferred to their shields, they'd still be vulnerable.

Asgard shields are more advanced, and don't share this vulnerability.

When talking about a shield that isn't prepared for it then yeah, tbh I don't know how a race could stop a weapon that effectively makes itself a part of the shield, unless sensors and computer systems on the ship changed the polarity or whatever of the shield to something the Drone(s) aren't prepared for.

With the Asgard's shields we don't know, we've never seen an Ancient Drone fired on a 304's shield or a dedicated Asgard vessel.
Todd did say something like "take out the hyperdrive with a single Drone" (this was in The Lost Tribe, when he had the Daedalus under his control).
It's possible even the Asgard didn't have a clue how to adjust their shields to repel a Drone attack.

It may be that the only thing that can really stop a Drone attack is really dense and thick armor, that can heal itself quickly.

If the distabilizing or shield eating theory is right then a denser, thicker shield that regenerates quickly in the section where damage is taking place could hold back a Drone attack, but I think a large enough sized swarm of Squids could still break through, because they can be specifically targeted at one point if the operator wants to.

TBH I don't see why the Ancients wouldn't have used both methods of penetration in one device.
Modulation could be effective for one target and shield eating/distabilizing could be effective for another and if you can make a shield/field that you can fit in a tiny weapon that can get through most things then it just makes for a more effective weapon in general.

[darth_timon]

I'm tempted to start a new thread, as this one has got me thinking about how dumb the Ancients were. I mean, they had technology that was incredibly advanced- so how did they let the Wraith ever get to a point where they were a threat? They must have been blind not to notice the ever-increasing numbers of Wraith and their ships...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I'm tempted to start a new thread, as this one has got me thinking about how dumb the Ancients were.

I don't think we've seen the full picture.
The fact that the Ancients made such powerful shields as what was on Atlantis, they seem to have had hyperdrive long before anyone else.
They had powerful weapons including Drones, the satellite that could slice through a Hive in one short beam that only impacted the Hive for a few short seconds.
They clearly weren't stupid, we can make an educated guess or guesses about certain factors that made up the war and the two sides.

I mean, they had technology that was incredibly advanced- so how did they let the Wraith ever get to a point where they were a threat?

We know that with more power a Hive can become much stronger.
It seems to make sense that the Wraith wouldn't have a need for the toughest versions of ships at the moment.
We know that the Wraith can grow ships, they don't have a dedicated homeworld or tech base for an enemy to target.
These things can all account for why the Wraith are such a hard enemy to fight, not just for the Ancients, but for any power we've been shown, besides maybe ascended beings or aliens on that level.

Basically if a Hive were stronger than we've seen the basic ones be, if they were litterally capable of withstanding more Drone attacks, if they can hold out for longer, if they had weapons a few magnitudes stronger.
If the Wraith's ships were numbering in the thousands, or they could replace and greatly improve their fleet size with ease by the end of the war, then there's very little the Ancients could have done to beat them entirely.

They must have been blind not to notice the ever-increasing numbers of Wraith and their ships...

This assumes that the Ancients were omnipotent accross the Pegasus galaxy, clearly this wasn't the case.
Many people that I've discussed this whole topic with on gateworld seem to believe that the Ancients had numerous cities and that they greatly outnumbered the Wraith.
So far all we've seen is maybe a couple dozen ships, 2 city ships and perhaps a few outposts.

Personally I feel that it's a miracle the Ancients lasted as long as they did.
A hundred years of war is longer than any war I'm aware of in Human history.

Yes the Ancients had different kinds of technologies, but the Wraith apparently had a moving, expanding industry that could be expanded on any world and at will by the Wraith.
That's a pretty hard thing to fight.

Even if the Ancients could pot shot and destroy fleets of Hives and Cruisers the very fact that the Wraith could replace losses with apparent ease makes them a believable foe to the Ancients.