Successor to Weir on Antarctica Base?

[Snowman37]

Well, we run in to the usual cases of recklessness, thoughtlessness and negligence. Who in their right mind would leave to people alone without proper weapons in an unknown vessel on an unknown unpopulated planet while exploring some other area. This is a recurrent "theme" in the SG saga. It led to many unnecessary deaths and problems.

Chalk it up to bad writing. Where as SG-1 was more realistic in regards to team dynamics, the writers took Atlantis less serious and thus presented far more unrealistic situations such as the one you cited.

Same thing in the case of Hot Zone. Exploring unknown areas of Atlantis without a Hazmat suit? They were just inviting trouble. By the way, do we ever find out who planted the nanite virus on Atlantis? Human replicators? Not the equivalent of the goa'uld or the Ori, that's for sure. They need humans. Not Wraith.

Don't get me started on the EMP. How were the radios still working? They would have been fried instantly. Though the computers were all turned off, they were still connected to the internal batteries. Everything electrical brought from Earth that wasn't shielded would have been destroyed instantly. Anyone who knows anything about EMP would know this. The writers didn't bother to research this, and it takes the "science" out of science-fiction. As for who planted the nanite virus, you'll find out early on in the third season.

[Dave2]

Thanks as usual, Snowman.
But the dynamics of recklessness happened in SG1 as well. "Oh! What's this?" "Don't touch it!" "AGGHHH!!" You know how it goes. Going down a tunnel in Guatemala to find what Arubis was looking for.......crawling around dark places without proper protection......taking unncessary risks......

Heck, you go to an earth-like planet but have no idea what kind of viruses and bacteria might be there that could be lethal. I wouldn't let anyone travel through the stargate without wearing a hazmat suit. But of course that would be lousy TV and I accept that.

But even theoretically. Would you eat something made in some underground protective cavern by some race of people at war? Would you drink the water on that planet or eat their fruit? I sure wouldn't! Of course that would make me a totally unsuitable traveler through the Stargate.

Chalk it up to bad writing. Where as SG-1 was more realistic in regards to team dynamics, the writers took Atlantis less serious and thus presented far more unrealistic situations such as the one you cited.


Don't get me started on the EMP. How were the radios still working? They would have been fried instantly. Though the computers were all turned off, they were still connected to the internal batteries. Everything electrical brought from Earth that wasn't shielded would have been destroyed instantly. Anyone who knows anything about EMP would know this. The writers didn't bother to research this, and it takes the "science" out of science-fiction. As for who planted the nanite virus, you'll find out early on in the third season.

[Dave2]

Why did the writers take SGA less seriously? Were they just satisfied that they had McKay as a montage of Carter and Jackson, with Teyla as the female version of Teal'c, and Shepard the better version of O'Neill than Cameron Mitchell??

[Lythisrose]

I think some of TPTB took SGA as seriously (at times) as they did the last two seasons of SG1. But that's another thread.

[Dave2]

I just watched Sanctuary. I don't think it was as good as Maternal Instinct on SG1. I was waiting for Chaya to reveal that she was Oma Desala or Anubis, and was wondering whether Shepard would mention Daniel Jackson and the haricissus. I guess it's a bit of a "recycled" episode.

[Snowman37]

Why did the writers take SGA less seriously?

I think they were just trying to make the show different from SG-1. Honestly, I kind'a liked the less serious campy nature of the show.

I just watched Sanctuary. I don't think it was as good as Maternal Instinct on SG1. I was waiting for Chaya to reveal that she was Oma Desala or Anubis, and was wondering whether Shepard would mention Daniel Jackson and the haricissus. I guess it's a bit of a "recycled" episode.

"Maternal Instinct" was about setting up larger stories. "Sanctuary" was just a one-off. Perhaps that's why it wasn't as satisfying? Yeah, the ascension thing's been done before. However, I think the episode was all about Chaya's big reveal, ya know? As for Oma DeSalla or Anubis... not a bad idea. When this episode aired, SG-1 was still in it's eighth season. Oma DeSalla and Anubis hadn't been written out yet.

[Dave2]

Little did I know when I started this thread about Weir that there would be the episode Before I Sleep, which is an excellent episode with nothing to gross you out (!)

However, there are many questions about the story line.

1) Ford asks whether it is possible to go back in time. But wasn't he aware of what happened to SG1 with episodes 1969 and 2010? And if I lost track of the chronology of SG1 episodes, would this mean that the Puddle Jumper used in Moebius was one built by Janos against the will of the Atlantis Council upon their return to Earth 10,000 ago?

2) Wouldn't there have been an alternative whereby Elizabeth went back to Earth with the Lanteans and provided some evidence for the future that Atlantis would be destroyed, and offer travel to other places in the Pegasus Galaxy from her list of gate addresses where there were at least ZPMs? What were the planets on the list that Elizabeth I had? Elizabeth coud have even warned them about all potential enemies including the Wraith.

3) Why would Atlantis have survived after the evacuation if the Wraith would not have known they all left and could have destroyed Atlantis anyway?

4) I lost track of the chronology of the Ancients. Who were the generations of the ones who evacuated to Earth, what did they do there, and what did the female Lantean mean that Elizabeth's earthlings were the second evolution of their kind?

5) Wouldn't the Lanteans back on Earth have eventually encountered the goa'uld invaders, and why couldn't they have fought them off eventually?

I think that's it for now! I guess this story makes Elizabethe Weir really Elizabeth II !

[Dave2]

Just one more. Did the writers goof?
McKay explains time travel as involving a parallel universe. But that isn't how it's explained on SG1.
So is the old Elizabeth from a parallel universe or not?
If I recall correctly in SG1 Samantha Carter explained parallel universes and time travel as two different phenomena.

[Snowman37]

1) Ford asks whether it is possible to go back in time. But wasn't he aware of what happened to SG1 with episodes 1969 and 2010? And if I lost track of the chronology of SG1 episodes, would this mean that the Puddle Jumper used in Moebius was one built by Janos against the will of the Atlantis Council upon their return to Earth 10,000 ago?

In all probability, the "1969" incident and the Aschen (spelling?) were classified. I doubt someone like Lieutenant Ford would be privileged to that kind of information. That he wasn't aware of SG-1's time travel adventures goes to show how sensitive that information is. As for the Puddle Jumper that SG-1 found... yeah... when Janus went back to the Milky Way galaxy with the last of his kind, he did indeed build one. However, instead of left behind for the expedition to find in the proper timeline, it was left behind in Milky Way for SG-1 to find. The episode aired between SG-1's "It's Good to Be King" and "Moebius."

2) Wouldn't there have been an alternative whereby Elizabeth went back to Earth with the Lanteans and provided some evidence for the future that Atlantis would be destroyed, and offer travel to other places in the Pegasus Galaxy from her list of gate addresses where there were at least ZPMs? What were the planets on the list that Elizabeth I had? Elizabeth coud have even warned them about all potential enemies including the Wraith.

If she'd gone back to Earth with the Lanteans, they'd probably have stopped her from trying to change the future. Ultimately, who's to say that a time capsule or clever message left behind for the SGC would be found after 10,000 years? Staying behind in Atlantis in stasis was really the best option.

3) Why would Atlantis have survived after the evacuation if the Wraith would not have known they all left and could have destroyed Atlantis anyway?

Atlantis was protected by being submerged to the bottom of the ocean. The Wraith's weapons dissipated in the ocean before reaching the city. There was nothing they could do. The Wraith had no way of knowing if the Lanteans remained or left. All they could do was accept that they'd defeated the Lanteans and rule over the galaxy.

4) I lost track of the chronology of the Ancients. Who were the generations of the ones who evacuated to Earth, what did they do there, and what did the female Lantean mean that Elizabeth's earthlings were the second evolution of their kind?

There were the Ancients in the Milky Way. A vast plague swept across the galaxy, wiping them out. Atlantis left for Pegasus to start over. This time, instead of a plague, it would be the Wraith that lead to their second defeat. Over the eons, humanity would have evolved from lower life, if you believe in Darwin theory (I don't). By the time the Lanteans returned to Earth 10,000 years ago, primitive humans were living on Earth. The Lanteans scattered to the wind. Some died out, some ascended, and others joined the primitive humans, passing their special gene from generation to generation. Sheppard, for example, would have had an ancestor from Atlantis. Weird to think about, eh?

5) Wouldn't the Lanteans back on Earth have eventually encountered the goa'uld invaders, and why couldn't they have fought them off eventually?

The Lantean survivors returned to Earth around 10,000 years ago. The Goa'uld didn't show up for a few thousand years. By that point, the Lanteans would have ascended or died out.

I think that's it for now! I guess this story makes Elizabethe Weir really Elizabeth II !

Really, they were both the same woman. Technically, everyone would be the second iteration of the Atlantis Expedition.

[Dave2]

If the Wraith were not going to destroy them, then why did they leave Atlantis for Earth, and why were they so few? How would they integrate into a primitive human culture on Earth? Where were the other Ancients, and who survived besides the Atlanteans from the Milky Way Plague? Didn't that occur long before 10,000 years ago, i.e. a million years ago?
It doesn't appear that the Ancients progressed too much technologically from one million to 10,000 years ago....
And what about McKay's statement about parallel universes? Was this just a writer's oversight from Sam Carter's descriptions on SG1??

[Snowman37]

If the Wraith were not going to destroy them, then why did they leave Atlantis for Earth, and why were they so few?

They left, because the Wraith had conquered the galaxy. They couldn't use the stargate, especially if a hive in orbit had a stargate aboard. Eventually, living in Atlantis would deplete the ZPM's. No, they left the city at the bottom of the ocean in the hopes that their legacy (generations down the road) would find the city.

How would they integrate into a primitive human culture on Earth? Where were the other Ancients, and who survived besides the Atlanteans from the Milky Way Plague? Didn't that occur long before 10,000 years ago, i.e. a million years ago?

We don't know what happened to them once they returned to Earth. We only know that the "leader" of Atlantis had ascended and later descended to become the legendary Merlin. This was revealed in SG-1 "The Pegasus Project," I think, which aired two years after "Before I Sleep." I think the only survivors of the Milky Way plague were the Lanteans themselves and any other ships and "city ships" that might have left for Pegasus. It was implied that after the Ancients left for Pegasus, humanity no longer existed in Milky Way. It evolved a second time on Earth, whatever that means. Humanity only came to exist on other worlds when the Goa'uld discovered Earth and transplanted people to other worlds to be servants and slaves. Presumably, the Goa'uld found Earth after the surviving Lanteans returned from Pegasus via stargate. We can also presume that they exited the not-yet frozen Antarctic stargate left behind by Atlantis. When Ra found Earth, he had to bring a stargate to the planet (set up in Egypt).

It doesn't appear that the Ancients progressed too much technologically from one million to 10,000 years ago....

We don't know where they stood several million years ago when Atlantis left Earth. We only know that the city was already finished and that they already had Puddle Jumpers. We at least know they hadn't yet developed the Pegasus stargate until at least after Atlantis left Earth in search of a new galaxy for the Ancients to reside in.

And what about McKay's statement about parallel universes? Was this just a writer's oversight from Sam Carter's descriptions on SG1??

McKay simply favors the multi-verse theory, countless or infinite parallel realities. He believed that going back in time would simply bump the time-traveler to an identical past to change without effecting the timeline the time-traveler came from. Ultimately, this is inconsistent with how the writers portray time travel. I think this statement was more for the fans who believe that an alternate timeline and parallel reality are one and the same. They are not. A parallel reality would have always existed. An alternate timeline is simply the characters' own reality changed. This means an alternate timeline nullifies the original. The restored timeline would consequently nullify the alternate. Personally, I subscribe to the latter theory: one reality which can change, but a single changing reality dictates that there can only ever be one timeline at a time.

[Dave2]

So let me get this straight. The relatively few people who left Atlantis back for Earth 10,000 years ago had no contact with Earth in the million years their people lived in the Pegasus galaxy on the unnamed planet, so they had no way of knowing what was going on on Earth or if the plague was still there. Correct so far?

But the Ancients who built the possibly thousand upon thousands of stargates in some kind of stargate factory, and then distributed them through several galaxies were the ANCESTORS of the people on Atlantis? And the entire city had existed on our Earth and somehow got whisked away to Pegagus with a relatively small number of Lanteans while the vast majority of those Atlanteans on our Earth either ascended as Ancients and Ori or mixed in with other humans of the "second evolution" despite the plague that had decimated them?

Where did the Ancients believe they ORIGINALLY came from, and how on "earth" (forgive the pun) did they create so many stargates and why, way back a million years ago? Wasn't that frozen woman in SG1 that last remaining person on Earth of the Ancients and she appears briefly at the beginning of the first SGA episode?
Does she function kind of like the Elizabeth Weir the First?

As far as realities go, does this situation mean that although the first Atlantis was destroyed with all the personnel (which of course never included Tayla's people), the regular "first" timeline of the SGC would have continued on its way under General O'Neill at the same time as the second timeline was developing? I thought I had eveything clear in my mind after we discussed Moebius, but now I am confused again....... ;-) I have to read your last reply anothe time!

[Dave2]

Now if the Wraith had conquered all of Pegasus 10,000 years ago, what happened in the interim that there were some planets who knew nothing of them, and that in all that time they never got to the Milky Way?

[Snowman37]

So let me get this straight. The relatively few people who left Atlantis back for Earth 10,000 years ago had no contact with Earth in the million years their people lived in the Pegasus galaxy on the unnamed planet, so they had no way of knowing what was going on on Earth or if the plague was still there. Correct so far?

I think it's safe to say that the plague was long gone at this point. As for the rest, yep. However, I would imagine they'd have sent a probe or person to "see if it's safe" before evacuating to Earth.

But the Ancients who built the possibly thousand upon thousands of stargates in some kind of stargate factory, and then distributed them through several galaxies were the ANCESTORS of the people on Atlantis? And the entire city had existed on our Earth and somehow got whisked away to Pegagus with a relatively small number of Lanteans while the vast majority of those Atlanteans on our Earth either ascended as Ancients and Ori or mixed in with other humans of the "second evolution" despite the plague that had decimated them?

As of SG-1 and Atlantis, there were only two known stargate networks: Milky Way and Pegasus. As for the Asgard, whether they had more than one was never explored. The Atlanteans or Lanteans aren't the entire ancient empire. Rather, they are simply the name of the people who lived in Atlantis. Remember, it was more than an outpost, it was a city where people could live out their lives. The people of Pegasus call the Lanteans the ancestors, because it was they who seeded life in the galaxy. Yes, Atlantis originally resided on Antarctica, Earth. The city flew to Lantea, the planet who's ocean Atlantis floats on in Pegasus. Presumably, the survivors within the city were all that was left of the great Ancient empire as the plague swept across the galaxy. The people left behind on Earth presumably died out or mostly died out. Did you finish SG-1? Remember, SG-1's later seasons and The Ark of Truth revealed that the Ancients came from another galaxy. A single people split: the Ori and the Alterans. The Alterans came to Milky Way, set up an empire, and then they were wiped out by a plague, one that might have been sent by the Ori. Atlantis packed up, flew out to Pegasus, and then they began again. This time, they were defeated by the Wraith. The survivors in Atlantis gated back to Earth where they died out or ascended. Some had children with the locals (the second evolution), allowing the Ancient gene to be passed down so people like O'Neill and Sheppard could poses it.

Does this clear everything up?

Where did the Ancients believe they ORIGINALLY came from, and how on "earth" (forgive the pun) did they create so many stargates and why, way back a million years ago? Wasn't that frozen woman in SG1 that last remaining person on Earth of the Ancients and she appears briefly at the beginning of the first SGA episode?
Does she function kind of like the Elizabeth Weir the First?

The origin of the Ancients was given in SG-1's "Avalon, Part 2." This was explored a little further in the final seasons and the movie The Ark of Truth. As for how the stargates were produced, we finally learn how in Stargate: Universe. An automated seeder ship is constructed which gathers raw materials and deposits stargates. A second ship follows up and checks out the seeded worlds. In time, a stargate network has formed. Why the frozen woman was left behind was never explored, so I've no answer for that question. As for being on Earth all alone, it's possible.

As far as realities go, does this situation mean that although the first Atlantis was destroyed with all the personnel (which of course never included Tayla's people), the regular "first" timeline of the SGC would have continued on its way under General O'Neill at the same time as the second timeline was developing? I thought I had eveything clear in my mind after we discussed Moebius, but now I am confused again....... ;-) I have to read your last reply anothe time!

Think of it like this... the timeline proceeds right up to the Atlantis Expedition being sent through Earth's stargate to Atlantis. This took place right after SG-1's eighth season premiere and was featured in the SGA series premiere. Right after they got there, the city floods, everyone dies; but Weir, Sheppard, and Zelenka escape via the Time Jumper. Once the ship traveled back in time, that timeline ceased to exist, changing into the future we are familiar with. Fast forward to General O'Neill sending the expedition to Atlantis. The city's shield begins to fail, and the city rises to the surface of the ocean just in the nick of time. It wouldn't be until late into the first season where old Weir would tell her story. All clear?

Now if the Wraith had conquered all of Pegasus 10,000 years ago, what happened in the interim that there were some planets who knew nothing of them, and that in all that time they never got to the Milky Way?

The Wraith would go hibernation every so often to allow for human numbers to build up again. As for worlds that didn't know of the Wraith, such as who? The Wraith didn't know about the Milky Way until the Atlantis Expedition showed up. Remember how excited the Wraith Queen was to learn of Earth when she interrogated Colonel Sumner in the first episode?

[Dave2]

I think I am following you. So in fact the source of all humans in the universe was from the Ancients (leaving aside Asgard, Wraith, Unas), but the Lanteans themselves had no knowledge of how they originated (i.e. in the Garden of Eden).
The reality on Earth at the time of the first Atlantis visit with Weir ceased to exist, as would the reality of Earth when the first SG1 team got stuck in ancient Egypt. There's no chance those original realities could have continued. Which is why I thought that the SG1 team after Moebius was not the identical one as the SG1 team BEFORE Moebius. What exactly does seeding mean? The humans in the Pegasus and MW galaxies are the same species/race descended from the Lanteans then?
Does that mean that if the Lanteans seeded the Milky Way with created humans then they must have encountered the planet with the Goa'uld along the way, no?

[Dave2]

Hi, Snowman. A couple of days ago I had a few additional questions for you above. Hope you have a chance to look at them.

[Snowman37]

I've just been busy over the weekend. I'll address your questions some time tonight.

[Dave2]

I just saw The Brotherhood and couldn't help but wonder why the team could not take the proper precautions even from the so-called Daganian brotherhood (sisterhood) when obtaining the ZPM. And how foolish and reckless of McKay to have spilled the beans about Atlantis.

I also can't get over the resemblance of the voice and facial gestures of Kolya/Robert Davi to those of Leonard Nimoy.

Then there is the question about the approaching hive ships (why do they get called hives anyway?).
Couldn't they evacuate the 200 people on the planet and close down Atlantis for a while, going elsewhere through the stargate since they have 2 weeks? I know that would ruin the scripts for the next episodes, but I wonder within the context of the story itself!

After all, what good is a planet without people to the Wraith anyway? What could thos dumb brutes do with Atlantis?

[The Urban Spaceman]

But the dynamics of recklessness happened in SG1 as well. "Oh! What's this?" "Don't touch it!" "AGGHHH!!" You know how it goes. Going down a tunnel in Guatemala to find what Arubis was looking for.......crawling around dark places without proper protection......taking unncessary risks......

Heck, you go to an earth-like planet but have no idea what kind of viruses and bacteria might be there that could be lethal. I wouldn't let anyone travel through the stargate without wearing a hazmat suit.

That would be the fiction aspect ofscience-fiction.

I think I am following you. So in fact the source of all humans in the universe was from the Ancients (leaving aside Asgard, Wraith, Unas),

Yes. But the Wraith are partly descended from humans too.

but the Lanteans themselves had no knowledge of how they originated (i.e. in the Garden of Eden).

They probably knew about the Ori and the Alterans.

The reality on Earth at the time of the first Atlantis visit with Weir ceased to exist, as would the reality of Earth when the first SG1 team got stuck in ancient Egypt. There's no chance those original realities could have continued. Which is why I thought that the SG1 team after Moebius was not the identical one as the SG1 team BEFORE Moebius.

Causality doesn't work like that. They're the same team because they had already gone back in time to change the past.

What exactly does seeding mean?

In the simplest sense it means introducing life (DNA) to a barren or otherwise lifeless planet. The series never makes it clear, so it could be something as simle as DNA seeding, or maybe the Alterans terraformed planets and bred our ape ancestors to live on them. We can only speculate.

The humans in the Pegasus and MW galaxies are the same species/race descended from the Lanteans then?

Humans in the MW were 'created' by the Alterans. Humans in Pegasus were 'created' by the Lanteans. But the Lanteans were Alterans, they had simply moved to a different galaxy, so they're all pretty much the same model, just with a different name.

Does that mean that if the Lanteans seeded the Milky Way with created humans then they must have encountered the planet with the Goa'uld along the way, no?

Not necessarily. The Alterans/Lanteans seeded some worlds in both galaxies, but there were many more worlds they didn't seed with life, and simply put stargates on for convenience. It's possible (and probable) that humans migrated through stargates on their own, to goa'uld-controlled planets. And even more likely that the Unas spread the goa'uld to humans, because the planet believed to be the goa'uld homeworld (or one of them) is also believed to be the Unas homeworld (or one of them). Humans needn't have gone there at all.

[Dave2]

Thus, you mean that the Ancients seeded the MW galaxy BEFORE the plaque forced them to either ascend or migrate to Pegasus, and then the Lanteans in Pegasus seeded that galaxy with human DNA once they got to Pegasus?

What about the galaxy of Celestes of the Ori?

And the original humans hosted by the Wraith DNA were also either Ancients or seeded DNA?

If so, that means that all humankind descended from the DNA of the Ancients/Lanteans. But in that case, how is it that only certain Earth humans had the special DNA to operate Atlantis technology? Why didn't all humans have it?

And does the scenario of seeding mean that people like the Aschens didn't know anything about the Ancients, the goa'ulds, Ori or Wraith? All they knew about was depleting other planets through sterility. Hmmm......come to think of it, THERE is a good story line for eliminating the Wraith........sterilization.

And does this mean that no humans were seeded on the other galaxies, i.e. of the Asgard, Replicators, etc.?