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SPOILERS Earth Story Arc

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    SPOILERS Earth Story Arc

    Just finished season 4 of like my 1000th rewatch and somethings been niggling at me.

    When Sheridan carved a path through Earth space, the largest fleet gathered to subdue him was comprised of only 30 Omega's?

    I've read a few fanfics and some other material on the disposition and numbers of space forces for all the races of B5, most notably the Dilgar War.

    I was under the impression that Earth had standing forces of 8 naval fleets with roughly 750 ships in each fleet during peacetime and more during wartime, counting Capitals class and support vessels like the Olympus, Artemis etc etc

    What was wondering is where were these fleets during this time?

    Shouldnt there have been even more monumental battles numbers wise than what we were treated to?

    Has JMS said anything about this?

    N.C

    #2
    Originally posted by Nth Chevron View Post
    I've read a few fanfics and some other material on the disposition and numbers of space forces for all the races of B5, most notably the Dilgar War.
    Bam, there's your problem.
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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      #3
      Yeh good reply.

      Try higher brain functions.

      n.C

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        #4
        I always understood that Earth's fleet was very small. Disregard anything not written or approved by JMS.
        sigpic

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          #5
          Originally posted by maneth View Post
          I always understood that Earth's fleet was very small. Disregard anything not written or approved by JMS.
          That was always my feeling as well. There were never any hard numbers on the relative strengths of each government so we couldn't compare. But given how many ships the non-human factions contributed in the Shadow War, I'd say that Earth is definitely on the small end of the scale when it comes to fleet sizes. The propaganda about being strong enough to stand up to the Minbari (saw little bits of that in 2259 in "And Now For a Word") is utterly ridiculous.

          Now in the Drakh attack depicted in Crusade's "War Zone" we finally did get a number: Over 340 destroyers lost in the fight against the Drakh. However, that episode didn't elaborate whether it was exclusively Earth destroyers or others in the Interstellar Alliance.
          sigpic

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            #6
            Originally posted by Nth Chevron View Post
            Yeh good reply.

            Try higher brain functions.

            n.C
            Says the guy trying to reconcile erroneous, non-canon FANfic with JMS-approved canon material. Perhaps try thinking about the painfully obvious answers to your own questions before you share how daft your line of thinking is with the rest of the world
            "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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              #7
              Its obvious i wouldnt take fanfic over JMS written TV show cannon.

              The point i am trying to make as you cant seem to get out of your own way to notice, is that Earth space would probably hold roughly 10-11 billion people, factor in advanced tech with factories, refining, mining, trade and maybe fabrication - and a civil war comprises 40 odd ships (not counting WS and Alien)

              N.C

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                #8
                And that humanity was brought within a sneeze of extinction only 10 years before the show starts doesn't factor into your math?
                "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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                  #9
                  Obviously, but to quote from season 2, Senator Quantrell "we've built our forces far in excess of what they were 10 years ago"

                  N.C

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Nth Chevron View Post
                    Obviously, but to quote from season 2, Senator Quantrell "we've built our forces far in excess of what they were 10 years ago"

                    N.C
                    Sheridan himself scoffed at Quantrell's comments and frankly so do I. After what you've seen of the Minbari in "In the Beginning" and in the Shadow War, don't tell me you actually believe the Earth Alliance could actually stand up to them or the more advanced galactic powers in a protracted war? If you do, I think you better re-watch season 2-4 AGAIN. The White Stars defeated the Shadow prototype destroyers without any outside help. The EarthGov jingoists didn't know squat about the true strengths of the various alien governments. That's what happens when you're an isolationist state.

                    The only reason the Army of Light even had a chance of standing up to the Shadows and Vorlons was because of their combined power. Alone, Earth is NOTHING. If Sheridan's forces wanted to destroy Earth, they could've done so easily. But why was it difficult? That's because their goal wasn't to destroy Earth or its forces but to free them. You have to pull your punches if you're going to do that and that's going to ultimately make your job harder for you.
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                      #11
                      Actually, what Sheridan was scoffing at was the line AFTER what i posted, " .. if the Minbari war happened today i think things would go differently."

                      What i was saying was to do with the numbers.

                      N.C

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Nth Chevron View Post
                        Actually, what Sheridan was scoffing at was the line AFTER what i posted, " .. if the Minbari war happened today i think things would go differently."

                        What i was saying was to do with the numbers.

                        N.C
                        Sheridan scoffed at Quantrell's entire mindset--the numbers, the foolishness, the very idea that Earth somehow thought itself to be strong in comparison to the other races. And whatever numbers Earth thinks is strong, it's not nearly strong enough to stand by itself against a technologically superior enemy.
                        sigpic

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                          #13
                          A lot of the fanfic numbers - and a fair few other things - are based on what was written at B5Tech, as back in the day it was viewed by some as a very good place to get that kind of stuff, and was WIDELY repeated. It mixed some canon facts with a lot of conjecture and very few caveats, plus there was some confusion about who (from the show) contributed what to the site.

                          This ‘essay’ (that you may be aware of) is an example of the kind of assumptions it made.
                          http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/scie...fleetsize.html

                          I based my fleet size figures on the hull registration numbers seen on the sides of the Hyperion type vessels, which are our only indication of fleet sizes in the Babylon 5 universe. The EAS Hyperion seen in "A Voice in the Wilderness" had a hull registration number of "21,494 IAK." We don't know what the letters stand for, but the numbers speak for themselves. On the side of the Hyperion, the large number read 21, obviously to denote that the Hyperion was in the 21,000 line of capital ships made by the Earth Alliance
                          (He added the comma to the supposedly quoted digits)
                          The reality behind those numbers is quite different, and had nothing to do with people on the show (including jms) working out fleet sizes. ; )
                          http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scro...m#Screen2_01_2

                          A lot of what we did was developed as we went along and some things became sort of reverse-engineered to be consistent. A whim might easily become a convention. Saying that, the call number - IAK 21494 - is actually the initials and birth date of my oldest son, who was born around the time I was building it.

                          [edit]

                          I’ve just noticed (as it’s been a while since I’ve looked at the place), B5Tech seems to be backtracking on the amount of fanon it’s using, which is no bad thing but what it previously contained has been read by many and repeated by more, like yourself after reading *honest* fanfic.

                          Here’s an example – keeping it with the Hyerion.

                          What’s on B5 Tech now.
                          http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/eart.../hyperion.html


                          What untold thousands read on the site for years.
                          http://web.archive.org/web/200611212.../hyperion.html
                          Last edited by Triple-F; 16 January 2012, 12:48 AM.
                          If you're a fan of Babylon 5, visit this facebook page, you might be surprised. ; )
                          http://www.facebook.com/B5Scrolls

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                            #14
                            @Triple F;

                            Good info, i'd noticed the B5Tech website had changed a few entries but couldnt remember the missing info, thanks for archive link

                            Also, i wasnt basing the probable ship numbers from just registries alone, as JMS heavily included in the series, we havent changed our nature much at all, sure there are more enlightened views around but it was basically portrayed that we just adapted to the times and the situation of becoming a space fairing race with relations to other species on an intergalactic scale.

                            I was basing what i thought to be the probable military mindset in such an environment on what we have today. That being a structured military with many tiers of service, including ground forces (subsets - armoured, infantry, Sub orbital, amphibious, medical and special forces) naval forces (Starships, fighters, logistics, RND) etc etc

                            Looking at the USA which seems to have been the base model for these on B5 led me to believe that military minds for security, sometimes paranoia and realism would use what we know and have perfected for ourselves in over 2000 years of warfare and ***** slapping each other. Fleets or battle-groups, operated today, are combined arms task forces.

                            Using this premise its not unreasonable to assume that, knowing us, over time there would be fleets for whole sectors and major assets, like Earth, Proxima, Orion colonies not to mention fleet shipyards, outer patrol zones and pure defense fleets who get brought to the front when someone comes knocking on your front door.

                            It just makes more sense to me as we are a tactical and military thinking people primarily, that we would have continued the long standing and proved method of ordering our defensive and offensive forces.

                            N.C

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                              #15
                              you seem to be forgetting that EA Fleet:
                              a: was deployed holding onto Earth colonies (e.g. proxima or Mars)
                              b: some of the fleet that could have responded decided to stay out of the fighting
                              c: is generally deployed across the galaxy on show the flag/peacekeeping/security missions and would therefore take to concentrate
                              d: We don't know how many ships decided to support the 'rebels' once the civil war started and therefore where being hunted down by 'loyal' units.
                              Admiral at Mars had to do with what was left over.
                              Also the Omega-x was rushed into service prototype which generally means you don't have a lot of them
                              Last edited by Garth Claw; 21 January 2012, 06:06 AM. Reason: correction grammer

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