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why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

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    Also, your original question was very vague:"why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?"
    "present day despite those initial massive advantages and the lack of a dark ages, both planets seem pretty much equal, admittedly Novus is the more advanced but not much it seems. both planets have handheld radios, both planets have key board interfaced computes, both planets still use nuclear weapons, both plants still can't crack faster then light travel on their own

    I would have thought it would only take a long as it took their people to establish a large population and an industrial infrastructure to become as advanced as we are know, by 2000 years latter they should be like Tollan or the ancients with hyperdrive, computes you control with your mind and weapons that put nukes to shame"

    Do you understand how scientific progress works like? Like I said, scientists and inventors don't just pull things out of their hat everytime somebody wants something. It's all down to something very promiscuous (for the lack of a better word) and impredictible element:

    The meme.

    Don't underestimate the power of meme. Memes are NEVER a free choice. They're something that large groups inadvertantly chose due to various reasons. It can also be driven by competition. Meme is everything.

    Like the Cold War space race, that was driven by the national pride. After that, the interest began to fade, and while the technology is more advanced today, very few things go on in space now
    Or a better example, the musicians, that always come with something new, new music styles, new attitudes etc. and old ones are usually forgotten or partially forgotten.
    That's what I meant by being promiscuous. It always changes, depending on what the direction is.

    An what what exactly did you meant by more advanced?
    "hyperdrives" They have the Stargate. They have no idea what is still outside the Gate system. They have no interest. They don't care. Why should they? Their lives are probably good enough. ("why shouldn't they" is not a reason)
    "computers that control your mind" What for? Because they look cool? On whom will they use? On the frogs?
    "weapons that put nukes to shame" Why? Cause blowing things up it's cool? Cause a civilisation level of technology is determined by how many times it can blow itself up?

    Tell you what their "meme" will be:
    Medicine: they already have relative limited genetic pool. That would drive them to genetic engineering. They already discovered the cure to A.L.S. by 1800. We haven't. We don't know how many other cures they discovered.
    Microtechnology: since bulky technology isn't very atractive, they would of developed their electronics to become smaller and smaller for practical reasons.
    Entertainment: since humans have always looked for fun, that would be a sufficient motivator.

    What were you expecting? Flying buildings? Giant robots? Super-mega-giga buildings? Mega-lasers? Space junk?
    The place was abandoned, they probably canibalised many things for their ships and many other would of being damaged by the earthquicks.
    It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
    -Dexter-

    Comment


      i do not understand why some people believe the presence of resources will be a problem.


      it's an untouched world, iron gold and everything will be at the surface

      Comment


        Originally posted by slimjim View Post
        "People have known the importance of doing multiple roles since the dawn of mankind, individual people from tribes could build, cook, they didn't just hunt, they taught their young and did many things" actually it only came about 30000 years ago you'd be surprised how much of what we are is learned
        Here's an article in the independent about the origins of Humans: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...ca-397161.html

        According to the article primitive Humans lived on the coast of Africa 165,000 years ago, they fished for mussles and were able to cook them, they would have to do multiple roles.
        BTW I never said I thought everything was instinct, of course everything we know is learned, we learn from dealing with problems our environments provide and we figure out through trial and error of different techniques to solve these problems.

        but once they did they would know where to go from there
        We're still discovering what our environment has to offer.
        From when we first learned how to make boats, the oldest found was from between 7,000 to 9,000 BC, so probably over 9,000 years people have been exploring the world and we still don't fully know all of the resources on the planet.
        2,000 years isn't really long to develop from basically nothing.
        You're still not proving your point.

        "Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land" yet technological advancement still happened here, why would any of the arguing factions choose not to pursue technological advancement as a goal
        I never argued that development hasn't happened on Earth, I simply argue that technological development isn't all that's happened over the history of humankind, fitting all of the development, social and other issues into the 2000 years the Novans had is still an amazing feat to undertake, them still advancing further dispite everything they've had to deal with is amazing, you saying it's not enough is an illogical way of thinking when you take into consideration what they've actually achieved and the facts of how Humans live together.

        "we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways" no we can't, we can see how they live on their home world and one other colony
        Deny the facts as much as you like it doesn't change the fact that the Novans are Human, we live in a variety of different ways, the Novans have been shown to do the same.

        they weren't right next to the buildings we saw they where in a completely different part of the city
        "they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked" I told you the part we saw wasn't attacked
        You can't have looked at the link you posted properly, because behind the buildings we see there was rubble, there was material on the ground that obviously came from destroyed structures.
        Please look at the link you posted again.

        only nothing physically we carry much of that advancement in our own minds
        This sentence makes no sense.
        Average people and even engineers won't carry every piece of knowledge about every advancement Humans have made over the history of our people.

        they controlled half the planet each, it's a safe bet they had every thing they needed in their respective territories
        It wasn't split down the middle with a straight line, originally they'd inhabit close regions, as in the same island, or islands very close to each other, so materials could be in short supply on one side's territory and they'd have to either move further away, which would be a major gamble when they had nothing to start with, so the most logical thing to do is try and live with your neighbours until they had the necessary resources in the way of supplies and then move to a new location on the planet, not knowing what's out there.
        On Earth important materials are easier to get to in certain areas than in others.
        TBH Humans can be incredibly stubborn, both nations would most likely argue over what's nearby and that would eat up loads of time.

        but dealing with it would be easier for them then us
        In their most advanced state maybe, as in later years, but they could still have issues and the fact that they've come further than we have in only 2000 years could mean they've cut corners in certain areas.

        I believe I have
        What you've stated isn't a fact, you haven't given evidence to support your viewpoint, you've just given unsupported statements, with no logical thought or evidence to back it up.

        how could any physicist working for the stargate program not know something as basic as that
        How many actual physicists made it to Novas?
        Eli wasn't an actually physicist, not in the same fully qualified way Rush was.
        Most of the people that made it to Novas were marines, some politicians and engineers.
        TBH it's not been stated that people in the SGC fully understand Naquada or Naquadria, or that they know it's full atomic make up.
        Actually finding the stuff could take decades of searching on each planet of their local galaxy with real world modern technology, if there are a few hundred habitibal worlds and they've gotta build tech when they get to each planet it could take centuries per planet to search, so much more time than they've already had to develop.

        "If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon" that only works with unlikely things, Naquada is found on many unrelated planets in the milky way, it's like suggesting there is no water in galaxy just because they don't mention it
        There are roughly 100,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy, many thousands (more than there are in Pegasus) of which have planets and they've got stargates on them and we've only found Naquada because the Goauld have had bases on many planets and we've followed their lead and found info on sites that have Naquada on because we've been fighting them.
        The Goauld dug Naquada out of the ground on those planets, they discovered where it was on those worlds that we've been exploring.
        The Novans would have to scout many sites and then hope to find large enough deposits to make it worth setting up a site.
        If they were using Naquada and had found it then we would know, because it would be stated on the show, Naquada is an integral part of the show, to not mention it, even in passing is stupid from a story writing point of view.

        You can't make up canon, to do so would be fanon and fanon isn't the truth of the show, only canon is.

        "As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs" yeah and why don't they make a spare Stargate out of their broken radios and flash lights well their at it?
        I wasn't talking about when they got there, obviously at some point in their history they got to a level closer to modern real world Earth.
        In the city we saw they had tech like Nuclear power generators or Geothermal power, they were powering a large city and had tech beyond Earth's, so by that stage they should be able to make use of Naquada, yet we saw no evidence of it, so obviously this would have been a time to mention such a material was in use, it wasn't mentioned, so they obviously weren't using it.
        I'm not saying that Naquada doesn't exist within the galaxy, just that it hasn't been stated that it's been found by either the Novans or Destiny, if it was then it would have been mentioned.

        we know Naquada generators can do it
        If Naquada generators can be used to power a Hyperdrive, then they should be able to power a warp drive, since breaking into hyperspace would require more effort, it would require more power than a warp drive.
        Last edited by Rise Of The Phoenix; 09 January 2012, 04:50 PM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          i do not understand why some people believe the presence of resources will be a problem.


          it's an untouched world, iron gold and everything will be at the surface
          Only in tiny quantities. Most of the minerals we have on Earth are dug for.
          And it does require specialist knowledge to identify them. There are only one or two who will have that skill.

          And it does assume that the planet even HAS all the minerals required.

          Comment


            Well, firstly they weren't at Earth and they didn't have access to so much technology as we do. Yes, they eventually had, but that took a lot of time and by then a lot of time was up and as they advanced, they went through a quicker version of Earth's advancements(they did start in wooden cabins, didn't they). Plus, there was Brody(replacing the invaluable Rush)vs. Mayor Young and all.
            "I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care... or why it should be necessary to prove it at all."

            Comment


              Although they were starting will a significant amount of accumulated knowledge, they started with a very small population and almost no resources. It takes many generations and coordination to go from nothing to a highly advanced society; even with the know-how the Destiny crew had.

              Comment


                Originally posted by rgritt View Post
                Although they were starting will a significant amount of accumulated knowledge, they started with a very small population and almost no resources. It takes many generations and coordination to go from nothing to a highly advanced society; even with the know-how the Destiny crew had.
                Exactly. They would have had no manufacturing/ industrial capacity for a long time. And who knows what else may have happened, a mini dark age, a plague, anything.
                sigpicHe who controls the spice controls the universe!(And the kitchen.)

                If you enjoy Minecraft or have never played but like building and exploring please check out Craftyn.com and apply for roamer status on the server at http://www.craftyn.com/forms/2/respond It is a well modded towny type server with a strong core community and lots of mini games and events. My user name is TrueGormagon and you are welcome to join the great city of Eden, Craftyns oldest player made city. (2011)

                Comment


                  Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
                  Maybe because there were only like 50 of them to start with. For at least a couple generations it would be a struggle just to survive, and by then the knowledge of the Destiny crew would only be second- and third-hand rather than having been of any practical use.

                  I took calculus in high school, but damned if I can remember any of it now or use it in the slightest--never mind being expert enough to know what Newton and Leibniz used it for.
                  That is a good point.. unlike our society since 0000bc, they were more concerned with eking out an existance and survival..

                  The engineers should. They should also have the knowledge to manufacture a kiln and develop copper and iron ore.
                  Knowledge maybe.. but would they have had the materials, tools?

                  Once they build a society that can feed and provide for itself (2 years) they'll start pumping out babies. This will go on for several generations and they'll get sufficient growth to drive their development.
                  From watching Epilogue, it looked like it took a heck of a lot longer than 2 years to get to where they were not just in subsistence survival mode.

                  Comment


                    I am just going to add to this:

                    Go back 2,000 years ago. 12 AD is easily done by a group of people even with a basic knowledge. Take for example arches, it took a long time to figure those out but are very basic (complex too). The houses we saw that they made are very simple by our standards but far, far advanced than most cultures thousands of years ago.

                    So they got a head start but the biggest problem is reinventing the wheel so to speak. Chances are Eli and others put up a list of things to invent and the baic premise of it. Sort of like a checklist. But not everything would be on there.

                    So I can easily see it take 2,000 years to reach from nothing to what we saw which is most likely more advanced than Earth. I find it doubtful too that those 2,000 years were peaceful or disaster free.
                    Hi There!

                    Comment


                      given the way the spaceship takes off at the end, i'd say their definitely much more advanced than Earth.

                      Comment


                        I'm going to interject here. A Few things firstly your forgeting Varo. He had come from a much less technical society; and even talked about hunting with his father and brother. He undoubted had the skills to tan hides, and a superior knowledge of survival. Between him and Greer their meat needs for 80 people could have been easily overcome.

                        Second Brody was a mechanical engineer, not a physicist. He would have pretty good knowledge of processes to refine ores. Produce concrete and other basic materials.

                        You also have a geologist on board, Dr. Palmer; who would know how to find deposits required for many of the materials. Probably would also know some of the processes for making glass, concrete and refining ores.

                        Dr. Volker is the last remaining true physicist left.

                        I recently watched the entire series on a 40 hour binge. In one episode Rush is in Eli's room talking to him and asks him if he had the computations yet. Eli handed him a piece of paper. Rush then made the comment, " Looks like Mr. Brody's paper making experiment is having some good results."

                        Now I've seen in this thread where someone mentioned how long it took to get steam power. The fact is They knew of steam power during the Roman Empire, but they considered it just a toy. This knowledge was eventually lost until the 1800's. The Romans even had plywood.
                        This is no different than the Batteries they found in the pyramids, they were crude but worked. Even though they had no use for batteries or electricity, it's suspected it was used by priests to convince followers of their power.

                        My point is this even though Earth had this technology much earlier than most people realize, they forgot about it as not being important. Destiny's crew however would know the importance of even the most basic tech and teach their kids to value it and not just discard it, EVEN if it was of no use at the time.

                        Now this was just a few crew members. You have 80 some crew all with different knowledge. What we now call hobbies, to them may in fact be very valuable for their accelerated advance. People like the geologist, Brody and a few others would be very busy advancing their ability to get back to the state they were in before they left Earth. The others would realize their immediate importance and provide for them so they could work towards this advance and improvement in their situation.

                        As an example I have friends who are working on various Doctorates, but have hobbies that include things like spinning their own thread and hand making cloth. Some do black smithing. Just because someone is a Doctor does not mean they do not have primitive hobbies.

                        Comment


                          Now this was just a few crew members. You have 80 some crew all with different knowledge.
                          I think an important factor you're forgetting is the advantage of knowing what's to come.

                          the fact that light is both a wave and a particle, or most of the basic equations of electricity, or how the atom is made, are thing that we now consider basic knowledge, but that is something from the last 100-200 years. Even basic things like bacteria and micro-organisms are things invented in the 1600's (ish).

                          If the Destiny crew recorded the various things that are possible and basic facts like that an atom is made of protons and neutrons, then even 1000 years later some Novan can go and prove that. They already know that's the case, they just need to prove it. A lot of science would basically be a matter of proving that's true and that is it. No need to spend ages understanding what it would be like or spending billions of man-hours on errands and wrong assumptions; in stead of having an Einstein trying to disprove Quantum Mechanics, you'd have an Einstein giving his all to further that theory. In stead of doctors experimenting with hygiene and doing things like looking at the weather or motions of the stars to predict disease, from the get-go doctors(even if they're glorified butchers) would wash their hands and sterilize their equipment (something that took over a thousand years before it was figured out).

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Bladed View Post
                            I'm going to interject here. A Few things firstly your forgeting Varo. He had come from a much less technical society; and even talked about hunting with his father and brother. He undoubted had the skills to tan hides, and a superior knowledge of survival. Between him and Greer their meat needs for 80 people could have been easily overcome.

                            Second Brody was a mechanical engineer, not a physicist. He would have pretty good knowledge of processes to refine ores. Produce concrete and other basic materials.

                            You also have a geologist on board, Dr. Palmer; who would know how to find deposits required for many of the materials. Probably would also know some of the processes for making glass, concrete and refining ores.
                            I'm going to disagree. Each of those people is, to use Newton's quote, standing on the shoulders of their forefathers. They might know the theory, and I'm going to say "some theory", probably 20 years since they looked at it, for some of what you're suggesting. I'm a 20 year professional computing engineer. But I couldn't build a motherboard from components. I wouldn't have the first clue how to make a motherboard from reinvented resin. Because I use the technology at a different level. There are years of trial and error, mostly error, to recreate even some of the most basic technologies: if you find clay to make bricks or pots/plates, what temperature is it baked at? For how long? Etc. As for higher technologies, yes, knowing the end result removes some of the limitations of imagination, but doesn't preclude the majority of even specialists from knowing the starting points of their own technologies.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Quizziard View Post
                              I'm going to disagree. Each of those people is, to use Newton's quote, standing on the shoulders of their forefathers. They might know the theory, and I'm going to say "some theory", probably 20 years since they looked at it, for some of what you're suggesting. I'm a 20 year professional computing engineer. But I couldn't build a motherboard from components. I wouldn't have the first clue how to make a motherboard from reinvented resin. Because I use the technology at a different level. There are years of trial and error, mostly error, to recreate even some of the most basic technologies: if you find clay to make bricks or pots/plates, what temperature is it baked at? For how long? Etc. As for higher technologies, yes, knowing the end result removes some of the limitations of imagination, but doesn't preclude the majority of even specialists from knowing the starting points of their own technologies.
                              Humans when forced to survive and actually need to remember something will. It's readily apparent most have not ever been in a survival situation, so have not experienced how well their own memory will work when it's life or death.
                              I've also found when you sit around a camp fire and tell stories, you can remember some of the oddest things that have no bearing on the stories being told at the time. As I said, SGU has never really delved into people's hobbies like SG1 did, so there is no way to tell who could actually know anything about ceramics.(yes bricks are included in ceramics do to it being the same process just different temps) And Yes, ceramics are a hobby of mine, which has nothing to do with my profession. Typically however ceramics are womens hobbies, it tends to be a stress relieving hobby for them, much like fishing for men.

                              I just don't like discounted pooled knowledge. Even if no one single person can remember a particular process as a group the odds are any various member will remember something about any given topic.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Quizziard View Post
                                I'm going to disagree. Each of those people is, to use Newton's quote, standing on the shoulders of their forefathers. They might know the theory, and I'm going to say "some theory", probably 20 years since they looked at it, for some of what you're suggesting. I'm a 20 year professional computing engineer. But I couldn't build a motherboard from components. I wouldn't have the first clue how to make a motherboard from reinvented resin. Because I use the technology at a different level. There are years of trial and error, mostly error, to recreate even some of the most basic technologies: if you find clay to make bricks or pots/plates, what temperature is it baked at? For how long? Etc. As for higher technologies, yes, knowing the end result removes some of the limitations of imagination, but doesn't preclude the majority of even specialists from knowing the starting points of their own technologies.
                                Totally agree with this.

                                Having an idea of and actually doing doesn't always follow.

                                Initially the Novans would be living in the stone age, presuming they would find flint and obsidian type stone that would provide sharp edges for tools when split on the planet. It would take time for Brody's metallurgical knowledge to be put into practice to make the tools from the iron Brody noted was available.

                                They had to eat and build shelter immediately so tools that could be made quickly to hunt for food and cut down trees for shelter was the first priority. We can assume that the basic survival training the military received made sure they the knowledge to start a fire. I can't imagine they'd have a lighter as a smoker would not be carrying their lighter around with them on Destiny after their cigarettes ran out.

                                They would then use the advanced knowledge of knowing about bows and arrows and put their efforts into reproducing this next to enable them to hunt more efficiently as they learn more about what was available to hunt. This would also provide clothing and bone tools as they would learn to use various parts of animals they find and learn to prepare hides through trial and error, but they have the idea of doing this already.

                                As they learn about the plants that are edible they learn to grow them for food. The trial and error part would be lessened slightly with the knowledge they already possess about irrigation and the need for fertilising soil. Dealing with pests and diseases would have to be dealt by trial and error since they are dealing with an eco system that will pose different challenges to that of Earth.

                                So, even looking at what the new arrivals were faced with initially it is understandable that it would take a decade at least to get a tried and tested way of survival established. Only when the pressure of surviving is removed can the path to developing better ways to do things be started on. Also I would think that what constitutes 'advancement' on Earth would not necessarily apply to life on Novus. Needs and wants are the engine of discovery and innovation.

                                As Brody's alcohol still building showed, the human need for diversions from the bane of daily life can also be the engine for innovation!

                                The fact that Eli felt it was important to document everything would mean he would get all the people with any knowledge they have and document it for use later. This knowledge base could then be tapped into when needed by future generations and built on as they would be aware of them since their history and knowledge is passed on as evidenced by the dedication of the school to Eli in 'Epilogue'.

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