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why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

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    #91
    It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
    -Dexter-

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      #92
      Oh man I've been Gateworl'd!

      Yeah I agree with you thekillman.
      I think there's one important factor that we forgot: the human component.
      We're not robots, we don't absobe all the knowledge and don't forget anything. We tend to twist everything. I bet that among the first things that the Destiny crew did when they got there was looking for a sugar-rich plant and if it was good for ethanol, 'cause nothing's better than booze. And if we got booze, let's hit a party or something like that.
      Yes they would teach their kids all their science and stuff, but...
      Seriously, are our kids science magnets or something else? Were we not all kids? Did we really cared about what will happen in the distant future and we all talked science equations or did we cared more about the girls (or boys) from the classroom? Or about the games and pranks we were about to pull?
      Between what our parents wanted us to become and what we wanted to become, who won?
      Sure, a handful of people would of cared about the scientific knowledge, but seriously, how many? And since your brain tends to forget things that aren't important in the nearby future and since engineers constantly have to refresh their knowledge so they won't forget it, I'd say Novus it's not a very knowledge-friendly place.
      It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
      -Dexter-

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
        Oh man I've been Gateworl'd!

        Yeah I agree with you thekillman.
        I think there's one important factor that we forgot: the human component.
        We're not robots, we don't absobe all the knowledge and don't forget anything. We tend to twist everything. I bet that among the first things that the Destiny crew did when they got there was looking for a sugar-rich plant and if it was good for ethanol, 'cause nothing's better than booze. And if we got booze, let's hit a party or something like that.
        Yes they would teach their kids all their science and stuff, but...
        Seriously, are our kids science magnets or something else? Were we not all kids? Did we really cared about what will happen in the distant future and we all talked science equations or did we cared more about the girls (or boys) from the classroom? Or about the games and pranks we were about to pull?
        Between what our parents wanted us to become and what we wanted to become, who won?
        Sure, a handful of people would of cared about the scientific knowledge, but seriously, how many? And since your brain tends to forget things that aren't important in the nearby future and since engineers constantly have to refresh their knowledge so they won't forget it, I'd say Novus it's not a very knowledge-friendly place.
        Unlike us, these kids are focusing on surviving instead of playstation.

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          #94
          Even the kids part is a human limitation: strictly speaking for the maximum survival chance, they need EVERY team member, of all orientations, to over-rule their preferences and have children with many member(s) of the opposite sex. How many are likely to agree to that (with one or two exceptions)?

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            #95
            Originally posted by morrismike View Post
            Unlike us, these kids are focusing on surviving instead of playstation.
            In their first years on Novus yes. But as their life became much easier as years passed, their focus on survival would not of been that important. They would of learned how to hunt much easier or raise animals, their agriculture would of been more efficient, so they wouldn't of been that worried if they'll not going to starve tommorow, or something like that.

            Originally posted by Quizziard View Post
            Even the kids part is a human limitation: strictly speaking for the maximum survival chance, they need EVERY team member, of all orientations, to over-rule their preferences and have children with many member(s) of the opposite sex. How many are likely to agree to that (with one or two exceptions)?
            I agree that raising kids would of been a very priority.
            You know, this had me thinking: since they were only like 80 or so people, would of not been possible that they would of created eventually some form of eugenic program to maximize their genetic diversity and prevent it's collapse?
            Like X will have kids with W because M it's too close to X, genetically speaking (like a twisted version of arranged marriage).
            And given their situation, would of they accepted the idea?
            It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
            -Dexter-

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by Quizziard View Post
              All of our assumptions, such as the one above, depend on there being the appropriate raw materials on the planet.

              And that at least one of the crew has sufficient skills/knowledge to identify them.
              Brody found an iron ore deposit within hours of them landing.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by Quizziard View Post
                Even the kids part is a human limitation: strictly speaking for the maximum survival chance, they need EVERY team member, of all orientations, to over-rule their preferences and have children with many member(s) of the opposite sex. How many are likely to agree to that (with one or two exceptions)?
                No.
                The first pairs need to have as many kids as possible. The early female children will likely need to pair up with the younger male crew and have as many kids as possible (Eli will be a busy man) and maybe even take multiple wives. Avoiding first cousins (or any sort of blood relative) won't be an issue for hundreds of years. Everybody sleeping around and losing track of actual fathers is a recipe for genetic disaster. With an abundance of males it may be a good idea to encourage divorce. It may be that men with good eyesight (since there are no optomitrists) should be encouraged to maybe take multiple wives. So long as the original females have no issues becoming brood mares they will be no problem.

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                  #98
                  Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
                  In their first years on Novus yes. But as their life became much easier as years passed, their focus on survival would not of been that important. They would of learned how to hunt much easier or raise animals, their agriculture would of been more efficient, so they wouldn't of been that worried if they'll not going to starve tommorow, or something like that.



                  I agree that raising kids would of been a very priority.
                  You know, this had me thinking: since they were only like 80 or so people, would of not been possible that they would of created eventually some form of eugenic program to maximize their genetic diversity and prevent it's collapse?
                  Like X will have kids with W because M it's too close to X, genetically speaking (like a twisted version of arranged marriage).
                  And given their situation, would of they accepted the idea?
                  Eugenics? Really, that is a recipe for all sorts of genetic issues. Apart from encouraging good vision they just need to stick with monogomous relationships and lots of kids. A high divorce rate wouldn't be a bad thing. Simply keeping first cousins, aunts and uncles away from each other would be enough to maintain diversity. It could be hundreds of years before people with any blood relation are pairing off and by that time it won't matter.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                    this assumes perfect retaining, memorizing and transferring knowledge. given that an engineer is more likely to be engineering than teaching, it would assume that the Destiny crew recorded every damn bit.
                    actually any thing much less assumes almost no retaliation of knowledge
                    Last edited by slimjim; 02 January 2012, 02:07 PM.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
                      Oh man I've been Gateworl'd!

                      Yeah I agree with you thekillman.
                      I think there's one important factor that we forgot: the human component.
                      We're not robots, we don't absobe all the knowledge and don't forget anything. We tend to twist everything. I bet that among the first things that the Destiny crew did when they got there was looking for a sugar-rich plant and if it was good for ethanol, 'cause nothing's better than booze. And if we got booze, let's hit a party or something like that.
                      I don't know what your suggesting? there are many scientists who drink alcohol regularly without it effecting their ability to do work, teach and publish work
                      Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
                      Yes they would teach their kids all their science and stuff, but...
                      Seriously, are our kids science magnets or something else? Were we not all kids? Did we really cared about what will happen in the distant future and we all talked science equations or did we cared more about the girls (or boys) from the classroom? Or about the games and pranks we were about to pull?
                      Between what our parents wanted us to become and what we wanted to become, who won?
                      that because our society has a youth culture that gives kids a grater sense of freedom from their parent's wishes, go back 100 years mother and father "won"
                      Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
                      Sure, a handful of people would of cared about the scientific knowledge, but seriously, how many? And since your brain tends to forget things that aren't important in the nearby future and since engineers constantly have to refresh their knowledge so they won't forget it, I'd say Novus it's not a very knowledge-friendly place.
                      "Sure, a handful of people would of cared about the scientific knowledge, but seriously, how many?" I knew meny bright kids at school who where interested in scientific knowledge for it's own sake

                      "since your brain tends to forget things that aren't important in the nearby future" well your exaggerated that a bit, a doctor say would probably have to stop practising for years to start forgetting lots of things and even then he'd probably never be reduced back to the level of a laymen, I'm not asking the engineers to remember every thing they've ever learned

                      "engineers constantly have to refresh their knowledge so they won't forget it" I assume they do that to keep as sharp as possible on the subject, not because if they stopped everything they'd ever leaned on the subject would drain out on their heads

                      "I'd say Novus it's not a very knowledge-friendly place" compared to us 2000 years ago it is
                      Last edited by slimjim; 02 January 2012, 02:03 PM.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by SGSargon View Post
                        In their first years on Novus yes. But as their life became much easier as years passed, their focus on survival would not of been that important. They would of learned how to hunt much easier or raise animals, their agriculture would of been more efficient, so they wouldn't of been that worried if they'll not going to starve tommorow, or something like that.
                        1)even a functioning agrarian society is pretty hard to run
                        2)we have youth culture that makes kids less driven by their parents wishes

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                          1)even a functioning agrarian society is pretty hard to run
                          2)we have youth culture that makes kids less driven by their parents wishes
                          They all need ritilin to function. Kids just ain't what they used to be.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                            "with a bit of a head start with some knowledge from throughout that time period" they had a massive head start on the humans of 1000 years ago, those people didn't even have understand the importance of having different people do different jobs
                            People have known the importance of doing multiple roles since the dawn of mankind, individual people from tribes could build, cook, they didn't just hunt, they taught their young and did many things.
                            The people that went to Novas wouldn't have had a complete understanding of everything they'd need to know, there were a small group of people, only a few of which would be qualified to use modern technology and maybe make some stuff they'd need to start off.
                            They certainly wouldn't know how to go from nothing to refining ores with no tech to make advanced materials.

                            "You act like the Novans would have done nothing but copy what they knew from the original colonists memories of things they may or may not know and maybe fill in the gaps.
                            They weren't robots, they were Human beings" why would they choose trying to create things from scratch over trying to work towards goals they knew are achievable
                            They'd have to make everything from scratch, they were starting from nothing.
                            They didn't have anything to begin with.

                            "The Novans would have to do more than establish the basics, they'd need to work as a civilization, get along with each other.
                            Social problems can take centuries to deal with" they where do fine at the end of the episode
                            People regularly disagree on even the basic things a society needs, hell they argue about things that aren't even important to society, just basic domestic issues or even spend ages arguing about the stupid things.
                            We saw a small part of their story, even deciding where to explore could be argued about and how to go about it.
                            The fact that we're even arguing about the topic of this thread proves that people disagree, even about a fictional group of characters and how they should end up.
                            Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land.

                            Even though a group of people may have peace among them, they will still disagree on where to build something, or what it should look like, it's just a fact of being Human and the influences of how environment shapes our way of thinking.

                            we can't say that because we've only seen one (since novus it's self also doesn't count)
                            I can see you didn't actually read what I wrote there, coz your sentence makes no sense.
                            We know that they had those settlements, we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways, they didn't just build a city like the one on their homeworld.

                            the drones deliberately left those buildings alone because they where so low tech
                            Here you miss the point of what I wrote.
                            The fact that the rubble surrounding those buildings still left intact means they didn't have tall buildings, otherwise the rubble would be standing much higher, basically there isn't enough rubble for there to have been a massive city with large buildings next to those structures that are still left intact, they'd also have damage, they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked.

                            "The Novans had to squash over 100,000 of development of important technologies into 2000 years" no they didn't
                            Yes they did, they had nothing, you ignoring this fact doesn't change that they had to go from nothing to what we have today and more.

                            "They also had disagreements in how they should live, two nations with different ideas on how they should develop.
                            Because of this they can't have just focused on tech development" why would how the country next door wants the develop effect me?
                            That country could have resources that you need to make things, not really rocket science, this could hold you back from making necessary things.
                            You could live on land that is terrible for farming, your neighbours could prevent you traveling to a fertile region of land, thus your people could die from starvation.
                            These kinds of issues could take many years, decades even centuries to deal with, even trying to move to another place it could take you decades to even find some other place that suitable, especially if you've gotta travel around on wooden ships that take ages to get to another island or continent.

                            but still not nearly as many as in the third world
                            No, but it's still an issue that you'd need to deal with if you even care about your people, the Novans obviously did considering they built ships to save their's

                            I acknowledge what's on screen I'm saying it doesn't make sense, and shouldn't be. There is a difference between stuff like made up technology and things that are just illogical
                            You act like what you believe is a fact, it's not.
                            I'm not the only person who's posted in this thread who believes the Novans are right at the level they could plausibly be at.
                            So far you've not given one shread of reasonable proof to explain why the Novans should be more advanced than we saw.

                            1) they'd know the "exact atomic composition" because one of the scientists would have written it down or described it to a keno
                            You're assuming they'd have that info on Destiny, we've never been told they do, so you saying this is just an assumption, not proof, my point still stands.

                            2)"Since no one's mentioned that Naquada exists in the galaxy" why would they mention it, it's not like they've got a generator on Destiny, what good would it do them
                            If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon.
                            If no one's mentioned Naquada then no one sees it at that moment in time, or knows that it's there, pretty simple stuff. lol
                            As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs.

                            2)"Warp only requires distorting the space infront of a craft and expanding the space behind the ship enough to move it from point a to point b, you're not breaking space or tearing a hole, then potentially having to repair it, Hyperdrive would require more energy because it has to tear a hole in space, maintain a conduit within subspace and then tear another hole back into the vacume, potentially having to repair space both going into subspace and exiting it" we don't know how a Hyperdrive works, but regardless we do know how much power it needs and it's less then that
                            I'm saying that punching a hole into subspace would require more power than simply moving it.
                            BTW no one on the show has stated the exact wattage needed to open a hyperspace window, but since tearing a hole into subspace requires more effort, because you have to actually break space in two places & then maintain a conduit inside of subspace and not just expand/contract the vacume, it's obvious what would require more power.
                            I don't see what's so hard to understand about those points.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              People have known the importance of doing multiple roles since the dawn of mankind, individual people from tribes could build, cook, they didn't just hunt, they taught their young and did many things.
                              The people that went to Novas wouldn't have had a complete understanding of everything they'd need to know, there were a small group of people, only a few of which would be qualified to use modern technology and maybe make some stuff they'd need to start off.
                              They certainly wouldn't know how to go from nothing to refining ores with no tech to make advanced materials
                              "People have known the importance of doing multiple roles since the dawn of mankind, individual people from tribes could build, cook, they didn't just hunt, they taught their young and did many things" actually it only came about 30000 years ago you'd be surprised how much of what we are is learned


                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              They'd have to make everything from scratch, they were starting from nothing.
                              They didn't have anything to begin with.
                              but once they did they would know where to go from there



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              People regularly disagree on even the basic things a society needs, hell they argue about things that aren't even important to society, just basic domestic issues or even spend ages arguing about the stupid things.
                              We saw a small part of their story, even deciding where to explore could be argued about and how to go about it.
                              The fact that we're even arguing about the topic of this thread proves that people disagree, even about a fictional group of characters and how they should end up.
                              Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land.

                              Even though a group of people may have peace among them, they will still disagree on where to build something, or what it should look like, it's just a fact of being Human and the influences of how environment shapes our way of thinking.
                              "Even though we have tonnes of resources on Earth we still disagree on how to use them or how to use land" yet technological advancement still happened here, why would any of the arguing factions choose not to pursue technological advancement as a goal



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              I can see you didn't actually read what I wrote there, coz your sentence makes no sense.
                              We know that they had those settlements, we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways, they didn't just build a city like the one on their homeworld.
                              "we can tell that their people lived in a varity of different ways" no we can't, we can see how they live on their home world and one other colony



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              Here you miss the point of what I wrote.
                              The fact that the rubble surrounding those buildings still left intact means they didn't have tall buildings, otherwise the rubble would be standing much higher, basically there isn't enough rubble for there to have been a massive city with large buildings next to those structures that are still left intact, they'd also have damage, they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked.
                              they weren't right next to the buildings we saw they where in a completely different part of the city
                              "they weren't even really scratched considering the place was meant to be attacked" I told you the part we saw wasn't attacked



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              Yes they did, they had nothing, you ignoring this fact doesn't change that they had to go from nothing to what we have today and more.
                              only nothing physically we carry much of that advancement in our own minds



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              That country could have resources that you need to make things, not really rocket science, this could hold you back from making necessary things.
                              You could live on land that is terrible for farming, your neighbours could prevent you traveling to a fertile region of land, thus your people could die from starvation.
                              These kinds of issues could take many years, decades even centuries to deal with, even trying to move to another place it could take you decades to even find some other place that suitable, especially if you've gotta travel around on wooden ships that take ages to get to another island or continent.
                              they controlled half the planet each, it's a safe bet they had every thing they needed in their respective territories



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              No, but it's still an issue that you'd need to deal with if you even care about your people, the Novans obviously did considering they built ships to save their's
                              but dealing with it would be easier for them then us



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              You act like what you believe is a fact, it's not.
                              I'm not the only person who's posted in this thread who believes the Novans are right at the level they could plausibly be at.
                              So far you've not given one shread of reasonable proof t o explain why the Novans should be more advanced than we saw.
                              I believe I have



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              You're assuming they'd have that info on Destiny, we've never been told they do, so you saying this is just an assumption, not proof, my point still stands.
                              how could any physicist working for the stargate program not know something as basic as that



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon.
                              If no one's mentioned Naquada then no one sees it at that moment in time, or knows that it's there, pretty simple stuff. lol
                              As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs.
                              "If it's not mentioned on the show, then it's not canon" that only works with unlikely things, Naquada is found on many unrelated planets in the milky way, it's like suggesting there is no water in galaxy just because they don't mention it
                              "As far as the "why would they mention it" part, it's a powerful material, that's not exactly everywhere in the Milky Way, they may also want to make a generator that uses Naquada, it could help with power needs" yeah and why don't they make a spare Stargate out of their broken radios and flash lights well their at it?



                              Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
                              I'm saying that punching a hole into subspace would require more power than simply moving it.
                              BTW no one on the show has stated the exact wattage needed to open a hyperspace window, but since tearing a hole into subspace requires more effort, because you have to actually break space in two places & then maintain a conduit inside of subspace and not just expand/contract the vacume, it's obvious what would require more power.
                              I don't see what's so hard to understand about those points.
                              we know Naquada generators can do it

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                actually any thing much less assumes almost no retaliation of knowledge
                                So if it's not white, it must be black. Great.

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                I don't know what your suggesting? there are many scientists who drink alcohol regularly without it effecting their ability to do work, teach and publish work
                                Not everybody was a scientist there, you know. And those scientists you talk about don't live in a harsh environment and have to worry about their kids survival, do they?

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                that because our society has a youth culture that gives kids a grater sense of freedom from their parent's wishes, go back 100 years mother and father "won"
                                And from what time period do you think these people come from? What education do you think they received? Stick and carrot or a more modern education? Think about it.

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                "Sure, a handful of people would of cared about the scientific knowledge, but seriously, how many?" I knew meny bright kids at school who where interested in scientific knowledge for it's own sake
                                A few kids don't equal a more advanced society. There are always a handful of bright kids in a large group, but they're always in minority and unless the group supports what they're doing, their achivements will go unnoticed. You don't believe me? Look at the history of the inventions.

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                "since your brain tends to forget things that aren't important in the nearby future" well your exaggerated that a bit, a doctor say would probably have to stop practising for years to start forgetting lots of things and even then he'd probably never be reduced back to the level of a laymen, I'm not asking the engineers to remember every thing they've ever learned
                                You're joking, right? That's how the human brain works. Large chunks of information that isn't necessary in the nearby future are forgotten by the brain so it could handle new information much better. Many of my college professors I know re-update everything they know every time they feels that something is being forgotten. One or two years without practicing the knowledge, and the only thing you'll remember will be the basics.
                                Scientists aren't superhuman, they don't just pull things out of their hat, they don't just solve things without screwing up things a bit. And just because you have a group of smart people, that doesn't mean you'll solve whatever problem just like that!

                                SCIENTISTS ARE NOT WESLEY CRUSHER!

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                "engineers constantly have to refresh their knowledge so they won't forget it" I assume they do that to keep as sharp as possible on the subject, not because if they stopped everything they'd ever leaned on the subject would drain out on their heads
                                What? You expect me to believe that if a scientist or an engineer doesn't re-update his knowlegde he'll never forget most of it? The only thing he'll remember will be basics and reinventing the notions from there is not that easy as it seems.

                                Originally posted by slimjim View Post
                                "I'd say Novus it's not a very knowledge-friendly place" compared to us 2000 years ago it is
                                You expect me to believe that an alien world with resources that are 90% used in suvival is a science and knowledge friendly, even compared to us 2000 years ago? A place without or extremely limited basic science instruments? Without chemical substances, without analysis instuments.
                                A lab or kitchen with the most rudimentary equipment is more science-friendly than anything they had there.
                                Kinos only analyse the atmosphere (it was said in the series and on Joe's blog) and, their power source does NOT last forever, and they have no ways of recharging it, evidence that their kinos were only opened during important events.
                                Last edited by SGSargon; 03 January 2012, 04:25 AM. Reason: seriously, what's with these blank page errors?
                                It's all about startegy. Out-maneuvering the opposition, bending him to your will.
                                -Dexter-

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