why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

[slimjim]

ok 2000 years ago we believed the sky was a perfect Sphere, that demons cause diseases,that slavery was A OK and half the world couldn't read. Where as 2000 years ago the people of Novus new about relativity, had a modern understanding of biology, free universal state education and presumably (thanks to Camile Wray) had a modern understanding of political philosophy

present day despite those initial massive advantages and the lack of a dark ages, both planets seem pretty much equal, admittedly Novus is the more advanced but not much it seems. both planets have handheld radios, both planets have key board interfaced computes, both planets still use nuclear weapons, both plants still can't crack faster then light travel on their own

I would have thought it would only take a long as it took their people to establish a large population and an industrial infrastructure to become as advanced as we are know, by 2000 years latter they should be like Tollan or the ancients with hyperdrive, computes you control with your mind and weapons that put nukes to shame

[Duval]

Can be because of the conflict which affixed both peoples of Novus Oo wars that does not help in evolved. Can be as well as the living conditions were more hard than on Earth...

All the same, they are more moved forward in the sense(direction) or they built spaciaux vessels, it is nothing, it is widely better that on Earth, us we wonder to go again how on Mars o.o

[Nth Chevron]

Probably because they took what we knew and expanded upon it and perfected the knowledge as best they could, but without discovering any new avenues to explore, or tech being handed to them as it was to Earth it slowed right way down.

They just got better at what they already knew.

N.C

[slimjim]

Probably because they took what we knew and expanded upon it and perfected the knowledge as best they could, but without discovering any new avenues to explore, or tech being handed to them as it was to Earth it slowed right way down.

They just got better at what they already knew.

N.C

1) you can't perfect existing technology without "discovering any new avenues" in order to perfect it
2) "without discovering any new avenues to explore" that's a little like suggesting a race died out because every single member lost interest in sex, it's technically possible but it's incredible implausible

[morrismike]

Had they taken the stones they would have surpassed the ancients with the head start that would have given them.

[AlexanderD]

It needs to be considered that society as it were on Novus did originate from agrarian surroundings. While the knowledge of advanced technology was there and surely passed down, that's not to say that this knowledge was recorded. Case in point, Eli Wallace wrote a good majority of the educational text books according to the archives. While intelligent, he didn't have the years of practical hands on experience with advanced tech. and lacked the formal education that many aboard Destiny took for granted. With that in mind, the Novan's may have been forced to reinvent the wheel somewhat with certain technologies and scientific discoveries.

[Artemis-Neith]

The Novus people are more advanced than we today at the end of 2011 in the real world!

What we've seen in the show was a civilization which was build up from scratch. The beginners had no real tools, only knowledge how to build those. And with that they ended up building their own spaceships after 2000 years, without stolen technology or help from far advanced folks around. They also found cures (at least one cure) for genetic disorders, something we nowadays could only dream about.

Same is true for spaceships: what we are able to produce is not that far advanced, though, all of it contains quite a lot of knowledge, science and resources, (nearly) all we are able to nowadays, as Duval above pointed out.

All of this is much less easy than science fiction stories tend to tell us. But fiction is not reality. In reality technological improvement needs a lot of more time than we want.

[AlexanderD]

The Novus people are more advanced than we today at the end of 2011 in the real world!

What we've seen in the show was a civilization which was build up from scratch. The beginners had no real tools, only knowledge how to build those. And with that they ended up building their own spaceships after 2000 years, without stolen technology or help from far advanced folks around. They also found cures (at least one cure) for genetic disorders, something we nowadays could only dream about.

Same is true for spaceships: what we are able to produce is not that far advanced, though, all of it contains quite a lot of knowledge, science and resources, (nearly) all we are able to nowadays, as Duval above pointed out.

All of this is much less easy than science fiction stories tend to tell us. But fiction is not reality. In reality technological improvement needs a lot of more time than we want.

Very well put.

[slimjim]

It needs to be considered that society as it were on Novus did originate from agrarian surroundings. While the knowledge of advanced technology was there and surely passed down, that's not to say that this knowledge was recorded. Case in point, Eli Wallace wrote a good majority of the educational text books according to the archives. While intelligent, he didn't have the years of practical hands on experience with advanced tech. and lacked the formal education that many aboard Destiny took for granted. With that in mind, the Novan's may have been forced to reinvent the wheel somewhat with certain technologies and scientific discoveries.

I kind of assumed Eli would have recorded the knowledge of other members of the crew to teach in his school and write down

[slimjim]

The Novus people are more advanced than we today at the end of 2011 in the real world!

What we've seen in the show was a civilization which was build up from scratch. The beginners had no real tools, only knowledge how to build those. And with that they ended up building their own spaceships after 2000 years, without stolen technology or help from far advanced folks around. They also found cures (at least one cure) for genetic disorders, something we nowadays could only dream about.

Same is true for spaceships: what we are able to produce is not that far advanced, though, all of it contains quite a lot of knowledge, science and resources, (nearly) all we are able to nowadays, as Duval above pointed out.

All of this is much less easy than science fiction stories tend to tell us. But fiction is not reality. In reality technological improvement needs a lot of more time than we want.

"What we've seen in the show was a civilization which was build up from scratch. The beginners had no real tools, only knowledge how to build those" you could send them there naked and it would only be a disadvantage until they made clothes

"But fiction is not reality" and this is not reality, it's the Stargate universe

[Artemis-Neith]

"What we've seen in the show was a civilization which was build up from scratch. The beginners had no real tools, only knowledge how to build those" you could send them there naked and it would only be a disadvantage until they made clothes

"But fiction is not reality" and this is not reality, it's the Stargate universe

that would be indeed a "disadvantage"!

Even within the Stargate universe: without the stolen technology (Goa'uld) and the massive help from far advanced aliens, humans would never be that far advanced. Under this proposition the people from Novus made a quite good progress, but the stargate-humans from earth "cheated", in a way. But, also, this alien, highly developed technology is restricted to those who have access to the stargate program. Outside that, earth is as far advanced as in our real world.

[slimjim]

that would be indeed a "disadvantage"!

Even within the Stargate universe: without the stolen technology (Goa'uld) and the massive help from far advanced aliens, humans would never be that far advanced. Under this proposition the people from Novus made a quite good progress, but the stargate-humans from earth "cheated", in a way. But, also, this alien, highly developed technology is restricted to those who have access to the stargate program. Outside that, earth is as far advanced as in our real world.

there are a lot of human worlds with supper advanced technology they presumably developed all on their own
what I mean by that "naked thing" is that an disadvantage you have the knowledge to get around won't last long

[DigiFluid]

Maybe because there were only like 50 of them to start with. For at least a couple generations it would be a struggle just to survive, and by then the knowledge of the Destiny crew would only be second- and third-hand rather than having been of any practical use.

I took calculus in high school, but damned if I can remember any of it now or use it in the slightest--never mind being expert enough to know what Newton and Leibniz used it for.

[slimjim]

Maybe because there were only like 50 of them to start with. For at least a couple generations it would be a struggle just to survive, and by then the knowledge of the Destiny crew would only be second- and third-hand rather than having been of any practical use.

I took calculus in high school, but damned if I can remember any of it now or use it in the slightest--never mind being expert enough to know what Newton and Leibniz used it for.

1) they established Eli wrote all their knowledge down in book form
2) a lot the destiny crew are professional scientists, I guarantee you if you where Mathematician or even an engineer or an astronomer, you would be able to remember calculus of the top of your head for life

[DigiFluid]

1) they established Eli wrote all their knowledge down in book form

So? Just because the information is there, doesn't mean people are going to be able to use it.

2) a lot the destiny crew are professional scientists, I guarantee you if you where Mathematician or even an engineer or an astronomer, you would be able to remember calculus of the top of your head for life

Again, this doesn't matter. Not one bit. You're thinking too narrowly, jumping from now to future without bothering to consider what would happen between.

Yes there are scientists and engineers and astronomers amongst the Destiny crew. Most of them will be dead in 50 years or less just as a natural consequence of ageing, if not falling victim to the elements.

For at least several decades, bare survival is going to be an issue. Surviving winters, building shelters, learning which alien plants are edible and which are poison, learning how best to plant/harvest/rotate crops. Hoping that the harvest produces enough to prevent starvation. In this environment, all those scientific/engineering/astronomy skills will mean nothing. They will be of zero practical value--and aside from maybe someone doing some work in their field in their spare time to keep themselves occupied, any progress in these fields will completely cease.

Fast forward to the first new generation of Novus. They've grown up there. They've never known life anywhere else--not on the technological marvel of Destiny, no real knowledge of the apex of Ancient civilization (Atlantis), even "Earth" is just a word to them. Novus is home. Novus is where they're from, where they grew up, where they grow and buy food. And as the colony continues to eke out its existence, knowledge of deep space astronomy, alien technologies, etc--these are all utterly meaningless to them. Yes they have textbooks. But when you're living as a farmer or a lumberjack or a miller or a cobbler--what possible use could you have for, say, calculus?

Fast forward another few generations and even the Destiny crew are only a memory. By now they're settled and just living out their lives on their homeworld. Maybe they're a mix of agrarian subsistence farming and hunter/gatherer. They don't know much about metallurgy or concrete mixing or any of the things we take for granted. They've never even seen things like that beyond the relics of their forebears. Might as well be a myth. In a world like this, there's still no use for astronomy/alien technologies/engineering. It gets forgotten a bit more.

When knowledge which we consider to be at the forefront of science and advancement is of no use to anyone for decades or centuries, it's lost. It doesn't really matter if it's committed to paper or data disc. If the collective skills and knowledge necessary to use that information are lost, and the ability to use it in any practical way has vanished generations ago, it's going to take many many more generations to re-learn it. And even that will only happen once they've advanced to a point where it's within the realm of conception.


Not as a knock against you, but I would absolutely suggest reading the novel Earth Abides. It's about the survivors of a global epidemic struggling to rebuild after the disaster. At first, the survivor generation does everything they can to pass on their knowledge and history and skills. But it becomes increasingly apparent that the first generation of the new world has little to no use for what their parents are teaching. It just doesn't have any application in their world, and so, all that progress is forgotten. Maybe to be revived later, maybe not. It's a terrific sociological thought experiment, and quite a good book.

[slimjim]

[DigiFluid]

Looks like you and I both got hit by the forum's latest and greatest stupid bug

I couldn't remember exactly what I'd written, so I started again from scratch.

[slimjim]

So? Just because the information is there, doesn't mean people are going to be able to use it

they don't need to use it just understand it until they can

Again, this doesn't matter. Not one bit. You're thinking too narrowly, jumping from now to future without bothering to consider what would happen between.

Yes there are scientists and engineers and astronomers amongst the Destiny crew. Most of them will be dead in 50 years or less just as a natural consequence of ageing, if not falling victim to the elements.

For at least several decades, bare survival is going to be an issue. Surviving winters, building shelters, learning which alien plants are edible and which are poison, learning how best to plant/harvest/rotate crops. Hoping that the harvest produces enough to prevent starvation. In this environment, all those scientific/engineering/astronomy skills will mean nothing. They will be of zero practical value--and aside from maybe someone doing some work in their field in their spare time to keep themselves occupied, any progress in these fields will completely cease.

Fast forward to the first new generation of Novus. They've grown up there. They've never known life anywhere else--not on the technological marvel of Destiny, no real knowledge of the apex of Ancient civilization (Atlantis), even "Earth" is just a word to them. Novus is home. Novus is where they're from, where they grew up, where they grow and buy food. And as the colony continues to eke out its existence, knowledge of deep space astronomy, alien technologies, etc--these are all utterly meaningless to them. Yes they have textbooks. But when you're living as a farmer or a lumberjack or a miller or a cobbler--what possible use could you have for, say, calculus?

Fast forward another few generations and even the Destiny crew are only a memory. By now they're settled and just living out their lives on their homeworld. Maybe they're a mix of agrarian subsistence farming and hunter/gatherer. They don't know much about metallurgy or concrete mixing or any of the things we take for granted. They've never even seen things like that beyond the relics of their forebears. Might as well be a myth. In a world like this, there's still no use for astronomy/alien technologies/engineering. It gets forgotten a bit more.

When knowledge which we consider to be at the forefront of science and advancement is of no use to anyone for decades or centuries, it's lost. It doesn't really matter if it's committed to paper or data disc. If the collective skills and knowledge necessary to use that information are lost, and the ability to use it in any practical way has vanished generations ago, it's going to take many many more generations to re-learn it. And even that will only happen once they've advanced to a point where it's within the realm of conception.


Not as a knock against you, but I would absolutely suggest reading the novel Earth Abides. It's about the survivors of a global epidemic struggling to rebuild after the disaster. At first, the survivor generation does everything they can to pass on their knowledge and history and skills. But it becomes increasingly apparent that the first generation of the new world has little to no use for what their parents are teaching. It just doesn't have any application in their world, and so, all that progress is forgotten. Maybe to be revived later, maybe not. It's a terrific sociological thought experiment, and quite a good book.

1)their would still be engineering, building a mill and houses requires engineering
2)calculus would be use full for engineering
3)"astronomy skills will mean nothing" yeah because lord knows astronomy is only done for practical purposes.... sarcasm
4) "They don't know much about metallurgy or concrete mixing" but use of that knowledge would be usable, so why would it be lost?
5)I haven't read "Earth Abides" but based on your description of them the people in the book sound profoundly stupid, it don't matter if the knowledge has no practical use for the next generation, you still need to make sure they learn and pass it on so that future generations will have it available to them if it ever is needed, viewing what knowledge you do and don't pass on pragmatically is a very dangerous and slippery slope, I'd imagine the destiny crew would be smart enough to realise that, and make sure their kids realise it
6)"Might as well be a myth" same as the above goes for recording history

[Artemis-Neith]

Novus with its civilization was presented to us as an outcome of 2000 years history. IMO, it was a quite optimistic interpretation of all possible outcomes. It could have been 1) a full disaster with nobody of this small group (less than 80 persons) surviving, 2) that, what we get, or 3) everything in between those two points.

I'm not sure whether there's a proof that humans have to go through "dark ages" again, and again (tho it sounds quite human like described in DigiFluid's cited novel "Earth Abides"), but there's also no proof that all knowledge of the founders will pass from one generation to the next without anything get lost on the way.

What we've seen might be possible, while not really likely, and by far not a rule. I think 2000 years is not that much time to start a new civilization from scratch, and I don't think it's so much time for experiments, like going through (several) dark ages. And although the scientists and engineers of Destiny should have a solid knowledge, it will likely not include everything necessary to make it in a shorter time, some things have to be invented from the start, and others which get lost also.

Anyway, I think it's possible, and for 2000 years Novus looks like a more advanced civilization as "present day earth" (as the thread header says!), as long as somehow acquired Alien technology is not included.

[DigiFluid]

they don't need to use it just understand it until they can




1)their would still be engineering, building a mill and houses requires engineering
2)calculus would be use full for engineering
3)"astronomy skills will mean nothing" yeah because lord knows astronomy is only done for practical purposes.... sarcasm
4) "They don't know much about metallurgy or concrete mixing" but use of that knowledge would be usable, so why would it be lost?
5)I haven't read "Earth Abides" but based on your description of them the people in the book sound profoundly stupid, it don't matter if the knowledge has no practical use for the next generation, you still need to make sure they learn and pass it on so that future generations will have it available to them if it ever is needed, viewing what knowledge you do and don't pass on pragmatically is a very dangerous and slippery slope, I'd imagine the destiny crew would be smart enough to realise that, and make sure their kids realise it
6)"Might as well be a myth" same as the above goes for recording history

You really have no idea how societal development and generational divides work, do you?