why after 2000 years is Novus not that much more advanced then present day earth?

[slimjim]

Novus with its civilization was presented to us as an outcome of 2000 years history. IMO, it was a quite optimistic interpretation of all possible outcomes. It could have been 1) a full disaster with nobody of this small group (less than 80 persons) surviving, 2) that, what we get, or 3) everything in between those two points.

I'm not sure whether there's a proof that humans have to go through "dark ages" again, and again (tho it sounds quite human like described in DigiFluid's cited novel "Earth Abides"), but there's also no proof that all knowledge of the founders will pass from one generation to the next without anything get lost on the way.

What we've seen might be possible, while not really likely, and by far not a rule. I think 2000 years is not that much time to start a new civilization from scratch, and I don't think it's so much time for experiments, like going through (several) dark ages. And although the scientists and engineers of Destiny should have a solid knowledge, it will likely not include everything necessary to make it in a shorter time, some things have to be invented from the start, and others which get lost also.

Anyway, I think it's possible, and for 2000 years Novus looks like a more advanced civilization as "present day earth" (as the thread header says!), as long as somehow acquired Alien technology is not included.

"but there's also no proof that all knowledge of the founders will pass from one generation to the next without anything get lost on the way" why would any thing get lost of they wrote it down and took care of the books?

"I think 2000 years is not that much time to start a new civilization from scratch" actually most civilizations rise and fall in half that time

"I don't think it's so much time for experiments, like going through (several) dark ages" what do you mean? how are the dark ages an experiment?

[slimjim]

You really have no idea how societal development and generational divides work, do you?

I think the sort of rules and assumptions that your going by concerning "societal development and generational divides" wouldn't apply to a society founded by modern intelligent westerners (like the destiny crew) because they would be aware of them and deliberately take actions to get around them like recording all their knowledge in book form and making sure the next generation understood the importance of passing down knowledge regardless of practical use

[Quizziard]

The problem is the difference between theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge with implementation.

Virtually every single thing on Novus would need building from scratch. A long way back. Put your hand up if you can make paper. Sure most of us know a little bit about the theory but how many could collect the right fibres, pulp them down, whiten, press and cut some appropriate paper. And that's an easyish example. What about bricks. Or glass. Or smelt steel. And that's a long way before petroleum based distillation for complex plastics, crystals for microprocessors, etc. And this all assumes that the raw materials are available. What most people today forget, because we're a global economy, is the stages of development.

As highlighted in an earlier post, the initial problem will be survival. A very real challenge for people who will barely know one end of a plant/animal from the other. That will expand from farming/building to primary industries: extraction of raw materials. Coal, iron, minerals. Once the basics are under control these materials get processed. But it's walk before running, so water power then steam power, before eventually petroleum or electrical. Then there's the oil derivatives. Even with the quality of engineers and scientists they have available, it's a long way from raw crude to plastic lunchbox.

Almost any technology you can think of, it will take the survivors years to get working. Some, such as spinning/weaving/dyeing, may be faster than, say, petrochemicals, but they'll all take a lot longer than we'd think. Even in the face of necessity.

[SGSargon]

1)their would still be engineering, building a mill and houses requires engineering
2)calculus would be use full for engineering
3)"astronomy skills will mean nothing" yeah because lord knows astronomy is only done for practical purposes.... sarcasm
4) "They don't know much about metallurgy or concrete mixing" but use of that knowledge would be usable, so why would it be lost?
5)I haven't read "Earth Abides" but based on your description of them the people in the book sound profoundly stupid, it don't matter if the knowledge has no practical use for the next generation, you still need to make sure they learn and pass it on so that future generations will have it available to them if it ever is needed, viewing what knowledge you do and don't pass on pragmatically is a very dangerous and slippery slope, I'd imagine the destiny crew would be smart enough to realise that, and make sure their kids realise it
6)"Might as well be a myth" same as the above goes for recording history

1) Building things out of wood is not such a big deal, because wood is a very common material in a forest and it's easy to work with. Cut it, dry it, check for rotting are a few things you need to look for. And you can work with it at room temperature.
But if you want to make iron and steel out of scratch, there are a few issues. Since iron is not found as nuggets in nature (like gold) and only as compounds, you must first find dirt that has a sufficient high concentration (Like Brody found in one spring). Then, you must purify it. And then you must use carbon (as in coal or charcoal) to make pig iron. Now comes the hard part. In order to have good quality steel, you must remove the impurities (sulphur, phosphorus), and decrease the carbon content, otherwise your product will be weak and brittle.
This are a just a few basics. No need for quantum physics or anything like that. Easy to learn easy to teach. No need to write it in a book. Then as time passes the methods will become more and more advanced and refined. This is not very sophisticated engeneering.
After all, many of the traditional crafts are not passed via written sources.
2) Only if you need precision working. After all, basic mathematics and physics are sufficient for the situation in which Destiny was.
3) I don't understand exactly what you meant, but because they're on a different planet, much of the astronomy knowledge won't help them, because the stars on the sky are totally different, they do not know the planet's axial tilt (they have seasons afterall), we do not know if it has any moon (although it's not impossible, given the season existance). Also, if you want astronomy, you'd need lens, mirrors and I doubt they brought enough binoculars, other lens and mirrors. Plus, if a few are broken, and most likely they were, you'd have until they learn how to make glass clear enough to replace them.
4) Limited metallurgy knowledge would of being passed, because it was necessesary (make tools and stuff).
But why on Earth would the knowledge of making concrete would be more important and vital then hunting, timber working, agriculture, limited medicine, since you don't have the basic materials to make it, and therefor you don't need it?
If you want to make concrete, you need cement, and that is NOT something you can make it wasy.
You need a specific type of rock (certain clays, limes, calcium sulfate). Then you must heat it to 1450 degrees Celsius in a kiln. Concrete manufacturing is a very intense process, more than extracting iron, so they won't of started making concrete until, a few hundred years later, when their industry would of been mature enough.
To give a good example, the Romans had their own version of concrete made with volcanic rock, and they had access to lots of it. However, after their civillisation fell, so did their concrete manufacturing. In the Middle Ages, the concrete wasn't very used outside the Italic peninsula because there was either little trade or other countries didn't discovered their own resources. It was only after people began to discover ways to produce it from common materials that the concrete began to be used as a common building material.

This was only basics. Now comes the serious stuff.

The most important factor in a civilisation development is the existance of vital materials.
For example, aluminium is vital if you want the aerospace industry to exist. But extracting aluminium and casting it is not easy. Until the Hall–Héroult process was invented, aluminium was an extremely expensive metal. While today is not as expensive as it used to be, it's still an energy hog.
Now since its metallurgy is complex, its unlikely anyone would of known the whole process, and therefore their descendants would have to learn how to make it from scratch.
If you want electronics, you must first need their basic materials. Enters the stage rare earth elements and p block metals and metalloids. Not very rare in a planet crust, but unlike the other metals the concentrations are from low to very low (especially in case of the rare earths). Since we do not know the geochemistry of Novus, we do not know the concentration of these metals, we cannot know how scare they are and if they are more diluate than ours, then that's bad news for their electronic industry.

Another important issue is what do you do with the knowledge that is important (or it's supposed to be important in the future) like Einstein's equations, quantum physics (seriously?), derivative calculus (vital to all existing fields, but certainly not to the corn ones), electronics, etc. You write them somewhere. Good. Where? On paper. How do you make it? What do you write with? That's right. Once you've wasted all the paper, pencils and pens you brought along you'll have to biuld everything from scratch. And not everybody is a scientist. Let's say you managed to write it (like Eli did). Where do you preserve it? It's near a forest, it's a humid environment, horrible medium to store paper. A fire can happen (library's worst nightmare). Your knowledge can be lost (like in case of the Library of Alexandria).
This is one of the main problems that knowledge storage faces. Nobody guarantees you that it will be there forever nor that it will be destruction-proof. And since the Destiny Expedition faced a tough environment, their library works would not of been as important as their survival.
Civilisations rise and fall, for many reasons. Diseases, natural disasters, fires, famines can affect the way a civilisation develops more than anyone can think.
Then there's also the innovation issue. Many of our inventions have been conceived by people, but many were caused by dumb luck (penicillin). And even when they were created, there was some time until they became integrated. For example the Antikythera mechanism, created around 100 BC, with a complexity that would only reappear almost 1000 years later.
And since not everybody is a scientist, many of that knowledge would of become legends, as we see in the episode.

The development of a civilisation is influenced by the environmental factors and nobody guarantees you that the knowledge of your ancestors will remain unchanged or will not be twisted.

[morrismike]

1. Wood is easy
2. Bronze is easy
3. Iron is easy
4. Concrete and/or dirtcrete is easy
5. irrigation and sewers is easy
6. firearms are easy
7. going to need rubber for hydraulics
8. making steel is much harder than making iron
9. pure enough copper for electrical stuff and the ability to draw it really hard
10. lack of tubes or the knowledge to make them will slow them down
11. making pure enough silicon for electronics is hard
12. aluminum is the least of their worries

within 5 years, they are a simple society
within 20 years they are at a WWI level
within 50 years they are at 1990s
within 100 years they are 2000s but lacking resources and bodies to do anything with it
within 500 years they are at Tollan level
within 1000 years they are at Asgard level
within 2000 years they are at Ancient level

[slimjim]

1) Building things out of wood is not such a big deal, because wood is a very common material in a forest and it's easy to work with. Cut it, dry it, check for rotting are a few things you need to look for. And you can work with it at room temperature.
But if you want to make iron and steel out of scratch, there are a few issues. Since iron is not found as nuggets in nature (like gold) and only as compounds, you must first find dirt that has a sufficient high concentration (Like Brody found in one spring). Then, you must purify it. And then you must use carbon (as in coal or charcoal) to make pig iron. Now comes the hard part. In order to have good quality steel, you must remove the impurities (sulphur, phosphorus), and decrease the carbon content, otherwise your product will be weak and brittle.
This are a just a few basics. No need for quantum physics or anything like that. Easy to learn easy to teach. No need to write it in a book. Then as time passes the methods will become more and more advanced and refined. This is not very sophisticated engeneering.
After all, many of the traditional crafts are not passed via written sources.
2) Only if you need precision working. After all, basic mathematics and physics are sufficient for the situation in which Destiny was.
3) I don't understand exactly what you meant, but because they're on a different planet, much of the astronomy knowledge won't help them, because the stars on the sky are totally different, they do not know the planet's axial tilt (they have seasons afterall), we do not know if it has any moon (although it's not impossible, given the season existance). Also, if you want astronomy, you'd need lens, mirrors and I doubt they brought enough binoculars, other lens and mirrors. Plus, if a few are broken, and most likely they were, you'd have until they learn how to make glass clear enough to replace them.
4) Limited metallurgy knowledge would of being passed, because it was necessesary (make tools and stuff).
But why on Earth would the knowledge of making concrete would be more important and vital then hunting, timber working, agriculture, limited medicine, since you don't have the basic materials to make it, and therefor you don't need it?
If you want to make concrete, you need cement, and that is NOT something you can make it wasy.
You need a specific type of rock (certain clays, limes, calcium sulfate). Then you must heat it to 1450 degrees Celsius in a kiln. Concrete manufacturing is a very intense process, more than extracting iron, so they won't of started making concrete until, a few hundred years later, when their industry would of been mature enough.
To give a good example, the Romans had their own version of concrete made with volcanic rock, and they had access to lots of it. However, after their civillisation fell, so did their concrete manufacturing. In the Middle Ages, the concrete wasn't very used outside the Italic peninsula because there was either little trade or other countries didn't discovered their own resources. It was only after people began to discover ways to produce it from common materials that the concrete began to be used as a common building material.

This was only basics. Now comes the serious stuff.

The most important factor in a civilisation development is the existance of vital materials.
For example, aluminium is vital if you want the aerospace industry to exist. But extracting aluminium and casting it is not easy. Until the Hall–Héroult process was invented, aluminium was an extremely expensive metal. While today is not as expensive as it used to be, it's still an energy hog.
Now since its metallurgy is complex, its unlikely anyone would of known the whole process, and therefore their descendants would have to learn how to make it from scratch.
If you want electronics, you must first need their basic materials. Enters the stage rare earth elements and p block metals and metalloids. Not very rare in a planet crust, but unlike the other metals the concentrations are from low to very low (especially in case of the rare earths). Since we do not know the geochemistry of Novus, we do not know the concentration of these metals, we cannot know how scare they are and if they are more diluate than ours, then that's bad news for their electronic industry.

Another important issue is what do you do with the knowledge that is important (or it's supposed to be important in the future) like Einstein's equations, quantum physics (seriously?), derivative calculus (vital to all existing fields, but certainly not to the corn ones), electronics, etc. You write them somewhere. Good. Where? On paper. How do you make it? What do you write with? That's right. Once you've wasted all the paper, pencils and pens you brought along you'll have to biuld everything from scratch. And not everybody is a scientist. Let's say you managed to write it (like Eli did). Where do you preserve it? It's near a forest, it's a humid environment, horrible medium to store paper. A fire can happen (library's worst nightmare). Your knowledge can be lost (like in case of the Library of Alexandria).
This is one of the main problems that knowledge storage faces. Nobody guarantees you that it will be there forever nor that it will be destruction-proof. And since the Destiny Expedition faced a tough environment, their library works would not of been as important as their survival.
Civilisations rise and fall, for many reasons. Diseases, natural disasters, fires, famines can affect the way a civilisation develops more than anyone can think.
Then there's also the innovation issue. Many of our inventions have been conceived by people, but many were caused by dumb luck (penicillin). And even when they were created, there was some time until they became integrated. For example the Antikythera mechanism, created around 100 BC, with a complexity that would only reappear almost 1000 years later.
And since not everybody is a scientist, many of that knowledge would of become legends, as we see in the episode.

The development of a civilisation is influenced by the environmental factors and nobody guarantees you that the knowledge of your ancestors will remain unchanged or will not be twisted.

1) they didn't just build simple structures, did you see the size of of that school
2) if you say so, but I still think you should keep the knowledge alive just encase
3) I meant astronomy has never exactly been all about practical applications, the greeks had primitive astronomy despite the absence of telescopes, they did have glass the school we saw at the end of the episode every clearly had windows
4)I honestly thought making concrete was more simple then that,
"Where do you preserve it?" the library would only need to last a until they can build a printing press then you make as many copies as possible an send them all over the growing country, or failing that in verbal form ON THE KENO
"since the Destiny Expedition faced a tough environment" only at the begging, they seem to be doing pretty well by a few decades latter
"the Antikythera mechanism, created around 100 BC, with a complexity that would only reappear almost 1000 years later." that's because people thought about science and progress differently before the Enlightenment and the renaissance

P.S "Einstein's equations, quantum physics (seriously?)" yeah because it's not like their going to need space ships to escape a black hole one day.....sarcasm

[slimjim]

1. Wood is easy
2. Bronze is easy
3. Iron is easy
4. Concrete and/or dirtcrete is easy
5. irrigation and sewers is easy
6. firearms are easy
7. going to need rubber for hydraulics
8. making steel is much harder than making iron
9. pure enough copper for electrical stuff and the ability to draw it really hard
10. lack of tubes or the knowledge to make them will slow them down
11. making pure enough silicon for electronics is hard
12. aluminum is the least of their worries

within 5 years, they are a simple society
within 20 years they are at a WWI level
within 50 years they are at 1990s
within 100 years they are 2000s but lacking resources and bodies to do anything with it
within 500 years they are at Tollan level
within 1000 years they are at Asgard level
within 2000 years they are at Ancient level

you see now I think that sounds too optimistic, too far the other way

[slimjim]

The problem is the difference between theoretical knowledge and practical knowledge with implementation.

Virtually every single thing on Novus would need building from scratch. A long way back. Put your hand up if you can make paper. Sure most of us know a little bit about the theory but how many could collect the right fibres, pulp them down, whiten, press and cut some appropriate paper. And that's an easyish example. What about bricks. Or glass. Or smelt steel. And that's a long way before petroleum based distillation for complex plastics, crystals for microprocessors, etc. And this all assumes that the raw materials are available. What most people today forget, because we're a global economy, is the stages of development.

As highlighted in an earlier post, the initial problem will be survival. A very real challenge for people who will barely know one end of a plant/animal from the other. That will expand from farming/building to primary industries: extraction of raw materials. Coal, iron, minerals. Once the basics are under control these materials get processed. But it's walk before running, so water power then steam power, before eventually petroleum or electrical. Then there's the oil derivatives. Even with the quality of engineers and scientists they have available, it's a long way from raw crude to plastic lunchbox.

Almost any technology you can think of, it will take the survivors years to get working. Some, such as spinning/weaving/dyeing, may be faster than, say, petrochemicals, but they'll all take a lot longer than we'd think. Even in the face of necessity.

"put your hand up if you can make paper" there are over 30 highly intelligent scientists on destiny, I would put money on at least a couple of them having picked up that knowledge in the course of their life

[SGSargon]

"put your hand up if you can make paper" there are over 30 highly intelligent scientists on destiny, I would put money on at least a couple of them having picked up that knowledge in the course of their life

But not MacGyver.
Given the nature of the mission, it's most likely that the majority of scientists are just theoretical physicists, mostly astrophysics and not full engineers. Their knowledges about other domains would be limeted. And whats good in theory is not always good in practice.
About that school (and the village) in the end, that was build over decades, at least 50 years at most (only Wray was the last survivor). By that time things have changed considerably.
If you want your knowledge to not vanish, then you must make sure it will also be applied in the real world, not just on paper. If you begin to teach some young students on Novus only lets say, 100 years, when you only have a small industry, about quantum physics and electronics and gallium semiconductors, everybody will ask you:
"What's the purpose of learning this, if my kiln doesn't use that, and we have no electronics apart from some dead things that our grandparents left us and what is that gallium whatever, I've never saw that?
And you'll say:
"But we'll need them in the future"
"Well, the future can wait. I think that learning things that are set in present would be better."

Afterall, IRL we hear a lot of people saying that the fusion power will be an excellent source of energy, that simulations show a huge release of energy, that the physicists bla bla bla. Although this its true (just look at the stars), no experiment so far has created a working prototype and the research is only carried out by a few companies and organisations.
So while it would be cool, its not yet and nobody likes promises.
And yep, cement is not something you can make it in the kitchen.

[slimjim]

But not MacGyver.
Given the nature of the mission, it's most likely that the majority of scientists are just theoretical physicists, mostly astrophysics and not full engineers. Their knowledges about other domains would be limeted. And whats good in theory is not always good in practice.
About that school (and the village) in the end, that was build over decades, at least 50 years at most (only Wray was the last survivor). By that time things have changed considerably.
If you want your knowledge to not vanish, then you must make sure it will also be applied in the real world, not just on paper. If you begin to teach some young students on Novus only lets say, 100 years, when you only have a small industry, about quantum physics and electronics and gallium semiconductors, everybody will ask you:
"What's the purpose of learning this, if my kiln doesn't use that, and we have no electronics apart from some dead things that our grandparents left us and what is that gallium whatever, I've never saw that?
And you'll say:
"But we'll need them in the future"
"Well, the future can wait. I think that learning things that are set in present would be better."

Afterall, IRL we hear a lot of people saying that the fusion power will be an excellent source of energy, that simulations show a huge release of energy, that the physicists bla bla bla. Although this its true (just look at the stars), no experiment so far has created a working prototype and the research is only carried out by a few companies and organisations.
So while it would be cool, its not yet and nobody likes promises.
And yep, cement is not something you can make it in the kitchen.

1) "Their knowledges about other domains would be limeted" individually but we are talking like 30 or so people
2) "What's the purpose of learning this, if my kiln doesn't use that, and we have no electronics apart from some dead things that our grandparents left us and what is that gallium whatever, I've never saw that?" the wouldn't ask that because they would have already been taught why the preservation of knowledge is important as children in school

[morrismike]

But not MacGyver.
Given the nature of the mission, it's most likely that the majority of scientists are just theoretical physicists, mostly astrophysics and not full engineers. Their knowledges about other domains would be limeted. And whats good in theory is not always good in practice.
About that school (and the village) in the end, that was build over decades, at least 50 years at most (only Wray was the last survivor). By that time things have changed considerably.
If you want your knowledge to not vanish, then you must make sure it will also be applied in the real world, not just on paper. If you begin to teach some young students on Novus only lets say, 100 years, when you only have a small industry, about quantum physics and electronics and gallium semiconductors, everybody will ask you:
"What's the purpose of learning this, if my kiln doesn't use that, and we have no electronics apart from some dead things that our grandparents left us and what is that gallium whatever, I've never saw that?
And you'll say:
"But we'll need them in the future"
"Well, the future can wait. I think that learning things that are set in present would be better."

Afterall, IRL we hear a lot of people saying that the fusion power will be an excellent source of energy, that simulations show a huge release of energy, that the physicists bla bla bla. Although this its true (just look at the stars), no experiment so far has created a working prototype and the research is only carried out by a few companies and organisations.
So while it would be cool, its not yet and nobody likes promises.
And yep, cement is not something you can make it in the kitchen.

Cement is easy. The Romans made it and their version is more durable than that because it doesn't use rebar (not as strong). I would admit without a big kiln and industrial capability why try.

[morrismike]

"put your hand up if you can make paper" there are over 30 highly intelligent scientists on destiny, I would put money on at least a couple of them having picked up that knowledge in the course of their life

They had kinos and didn't need paper.

[Quizziard]

5. irrigation and sewers is easy

There's a big difference between knowledge and implementation. However, you're right: the big advantage that the survivors gain is that they have the knowledge. At least in outline. Theories of hygiene and plumbing that should be aeons ahead of equivalent Earth cultures equivalently in the stone age. But anything needed making would, by definition, need making. Someone mentioned the baking point of concrete, above: useful trivia fact but would anyone on Destiny know it?

[jimbeamjunior]

maybe they just werent smart enough to advance any further than they were at

nevermind anything else, materials, facilities etc, simple fact may be that they reached a certain level of intelligence level and could not surpass it, for all we know the tollans etc had outside factors in their development that aided their technological advancements

[slimjim]

maybe they just werent smart enough to advance any further than they were at

nevermind anything else, materials, facilities etc, simple fact may be that they reached a certain level of intelligence level and could not surpass it, for all we know the tollans etc had outside factors in their development that aided their technological advancements

"maybe they just werent smart enough to advance any further than they were at" all human groups have the same average intelligence

"they reached a certain level of intelligence level", you don't reach an "intelligence level" average human intelligence is set for all time, you reach a "knowledge level".

"for all we know the tollans etc had outside factors in their development that aided their technological advancements" 1) their not the only highly advanced human world we've seen 2)either way that means their technology must be achievable and understandable by some means, which means humans can figure it out if we can understand it

[slimjim]

They had kinos and didn't need paper.

they could get damaged, it would be foolish to have no back up
also only one person can look at that little screen at a time

[Nth Chevron]

1) you can't perfect existing technology without "discovering any new avenues" in order to perfect it

Just like we discovered flying anti-grav cars whilst continuing to increase the efficiency and overall design of current piston engines.

Considering the beginnings and the comforts with which the original Destiny crew grew up with, its not unreasonable to assume high technological advancement was ignored for awhile in favour of infrastructure, medical, farming etc etc.

N.C

[slimjim]

Just like we discovered flying anti-grav cars whilst continuing to increase the efficiency and overall design of current piston engines.

well not in completely different fields obviously

Considering the beginnings and the comforts with which the original Destiny crew grew up with, its not unreasonable to assume high technological advancement was ignored for awhile in favour of infrastructure, medical, farming etc etc.

N.C

I know, I just think 2000 years is too long for that explanation to pass

[Quizziard]

well not in completely different fields obviously

I know, I just think 2000 years is too long for that explanation to pass

Despite my previous posting, which I do stand-by in terms of back-to-basics knowledge, their development should really be no worse than back on Earth. All their accumulated "advanced" knowledge should be able to offset the lack of hands-on/basic knowledge in terms of development. For example, they may not know how to make paper, in practice, but they should be able to condense steam power much faster than Trevithick/Stephenson etc. on Earth.

[slimjim]

Despite my previous posting, which I do stand-by in terms of back-to-basics knowledge, their development should really be no worse than back on Earth. All their accumulated "advanced" knowledge should be able to offset the lack of hands-on/basic knowledge in terms of development. For example, they may not know how to make paper, in practice, but they should be able to condense steam power much faster than Trevithick/Stephenson etc. on Earth.

but they'd loose that knowledge if they couldn't write it down (forgetting the keno for now),
also I always thought the ability to do very sophisticated things is built on a foundation of more simple things, like for example no matter how much they wanted to they couldn't build a good steam powered engine because there is no manufacturing infrastructure to make the standardised parts you would need, and there's no where you can buy food from to supply workers so they can afford to spend their time building the thing and presumable a rail road instead of farming