Legacy Wraith Discussion/Speculation Thread ~ SPOILERS!

[ciannwn]

And what if he does feed? What if he does kill someone or someones? :0

This would give Doctor Eva Robinson an opportunity to earn her keep.

[Artie]

This would give Doctor Eva Robinson an opportunity to earn her keep.

Seriously!

"Oh yeah, while I was a Wraith I ate three or four people...."

[Isolde]

This would give Doctor Eva Robinson an opportunity to earn her keep.

Wouldn't it.

I'm wondering if Rodney has just enough of a sociopathic personality disorder to be able to get past the whole feeding issue? They died so I might live, and self-preservation is pretty high on his list. If they were random perhaps he would have no need to feel guilty...? However, we are presupposing he will recall all of his time as Wraith, and this could come under 'things I'd sooner not face' PTSD.

And maybe I'm doing him a disservice, and he does have morals us lesser mortals can relate to.

[ciannwn]

Seriously!

"Oh yeah, while I was a Wraith I ate three or four people...."

Eva's main function in the story so far has been asking questions about the running of Atlantis etc. which has enabled the Legacy authors to provide background details which were ignored when SGA was on TV. Why was it important to replace Heightmeyer, though, when any newbie to Atlantis character could go around asking questions? This was something I've been asking myself.

Rodney's going to need a psychologist when he's back to normal, especially if he has to feed when he was Quicksilver. Eva would be the obvious choice because, even if there are other Stargate Program psychologists back on Earth, they haven't been to Pegasus.

Having an opportunity to earn her keep doesn't mean that Rodney could be helped by counselling alone, of course. Perhaps Sheppard and Beckett would have contributions to make because of their own experiences-

1: Sheppard persuaded Wallace to be Todd's lunch. (Miller's Crossing)

2: Beckett helped Perna to develop the Hoffan drug. (Poisoning The Well) This ultimately led to the death of thousands of Pegasus humans.

There's also the fact that every hive ship blown up by the Atlantis expedition had cocooned humans on board.

[Shaded Mazoku]

Wouldn't it.

I'm wondering if Rodney has just enough of a sociopathic personality disorder to be able to get past the whole feeding issue? They died so I might live, and self-preservation is pretty high on his list. If they were random perhaps he would have no need to feel guilty...? However, we are presupposing he will recall all of his time as Wraith, and this could come under 'things I'd sooner not face' PTSD.

And maybe I'm doing him a disservice, and he does have morals us lesser mortals can relate to.

I don't think Rodney is that bad. I have a grandfather who is pretty much what Rodney sometimes comes across as; very smart and without any ability to feel empathy. Rodney is not that much of a git.

However, the human mind's ability to repress things it doesn't feel prepared to deal with is pretty impressive, and I'm betting that even includes people who wear their emotions as obviously as Rodney tends to do.

[Artie]

Eva's main function in the story so far has been asking questions about the running of Atlantis etc. which has enabled the Legacy authors to provide background details which were ignored when SGA was on TV. Why was it important to replace Heightmeyer, though, when any newbie to Atlantis character could go around asking questions? This was something I've been asking myself.

Rodney's going to need a psychologist when he's back to normal, especially if he has to feed when he was Quicksilver. Eva would be the obvious choice because, even if there are other Stargate Program psychologists back on Earth, they haven't been to Pegasus.

Having an opportunity to earn her keep doesn't mean that Rodney could be helped by counselling alone, of course. Perhaps Sheppard and Beckett would have contributions to make because of their own experiences-

1: Sheppard persuaded Wallace to be Todd's lunch. (Miller's Crossing)

2: Beckett helped Perna to develop the Hoffan drug. (Poisoning The Well) This ultimately led to the death of thousands of Pegasus humans.

There's also the fact that every hive ship blown up by the Atlantis expedition had cocooned humans on board.

All good points! Why Eva indeed? I've got two good reasons for Eva, and I think dealing with Rodney is one of them, because yeah, he's going to need her. The other reason to replace Heightmeyer is The Gift. The thing about the Legacy books is that they're all one story cut into six pieces, not each piece written in response to the last one. So if a psychologist will be needed in the fifth book, rather than have someone appear suddenly in the fifth book, there's someone who's been there all along fulfilling the function of the questioning newbie too, and then her appearance isn't jarring or clever-clever.

[ciannwn]

The other reason to replace Heightmeyer is The Gift.

Heightmeyer played an essential role in that episode but I have to admit that the following makes me wince.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1...ipts/118.shtml

HEIGHTMEYER: The truth is, people waste a lot of time trying to interpret their dreams. They're really just another way our brain thinks when we're asleep. There are no hidden meanings. In fact, we tend to forget most everything we dream about. Our conscious mind is capable of deciding what's most important to us.

Surely the point of interpreting dreams is to discover what our brains are thinking when we're asleep and discovering why they're thinking it?

TEYLA: Well, the fact that on some level I see myself as a Wraith is very disturbing to me.

HEIGHTMEYER: I think this special ability that you have, this talent for sensing the Wraith, connects you to them in your mind -- maybe in a way you would like to deny.

Heightmeyer has now given Teyla's nightmare an interpretation. It turns out that there is a hidden meaning to it because Teyla has Wraith DNA. Her unconscious seems to have figured this out and is trying to tell her through a dream.

Anyway, back to Rodney. His fiddling around with the Asuran base code also resulted in a lot of human deaths.

1: The Ancients from the Tria.

2: Pegasus communities when the Asurans decided to drive the Wraith to extinction by getting rid of their food supply.

How would Quicksilver feeding on a few humans compare to the disasters caused by the Atlantis expedition?

[Shaded Mazoku]

Heightmeyer played an essential role in that episode but I have to admit that the following makes me wince.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1...ipts/118.shtml



Surely the point of interpreting dreams is to discover what our brains are thinking when we're asleep and discovering why they're thinking it?



Heightmeyer has now given Teyla's nightmare an interpretation. It turns out that there is a hidden meaning to it because Teyla has Wraith DNA. Her unconscious seems to have figured this out and is trying to tell her through a dream.

Anyway, back to Rodney. His fiddling around with the Asuran base code also resulted in a lot of human deaths.

1: The Ancients from the Tria.

2: Pegasus communities when the Asurans decided to drive the Wraith to extinction by getting rid of their food supply.

How would Quicksilver feeding on a few humans compare to the disasters caused by the Atlantis expedition?

I must confess that while I didn't mind Heightmeyer as a character, I thought she was a terrible therapist. A bit too much of the jumping to the conclusions and a tendency to err on the wrong side of confidentiality (for the sake of exposition, I suppose) doesn't endear me to someone.

As for the second point, I definitely think that in the bigger picture, a few deaths by Quicksilver's hand is nothing compared to the deaths the expedition have caused. Human and otherwise, though the show never cared about killing tons of non-humans. *rolls eyes*

However, I think it's a lot easier to distance oneself from killing by proxy as opposed to doing the actual deed yourself. So while it's morally no worse for a Wraith to kill a few humans than for a human to kill livestock, really, it's probably going to have a much wider effect that Rodney might have killed while he was a Wraith than the fact that the Atlantis expedition has caused a lot of death due to messing with the Asuran base code, as well as going and waking up the Wraith in the first place. It's not fair, but honestly, there's preciously little that is in the current situation in the books.

[Artie]

I must confess that while I didn't mind Heightmeyer as a character, I thought she was a terrible therapist. A bit too much of the jumping to the conclusions and a tendency to err on the wrong side of confidentiality (for the sake of exposition, I suppose) doesn't endear me to someone.

Seriously. I think Eva may be a little more willing to accept the strange since she came from the SGC.

However, I think it's a lot easier to distance oneself from killing by proxy as opposed to doing the actual deed yourself. So while it's morally no worse for a Wraith to kill a few humans than for a human to kill livestock, really, it's probably going to have a much wider effect that Rodney might have killed while he was a Wraith than the fact that the Atlantis expedition has caused a lot of death due to messing with the Asuran base code, as well as going and waking up the Wraith in the first place. It's not fair, but honestly, there's preciously little that is in the current situation in the books.

Harder for Rodney, certainly. It's one thing to be responsible in some distant sense and another to kill someone face to face with your bare hands. (Or bear hands, in Isolde's case!) ;D

[ciannwn]

However, I think it's a lot easier to distance oneself from killing by proxy as opposed to doing the actual deed yourself.

Which is where Sheppard comes in. He has killed a lot of humans by doing the actual deed himself. He was out in Afghanistan and his hallucinations in 'Phantoms' imply that he was no stranger to killing while he was there. He's also killed Genii. His argument could be that it was a choice between 'me/the people I tried to protect' and 'them' and it was made while he was a fellow human. Rodney, on the other hand, was forced to feed while he was a manufactured Wraith.

Rodney hasn't completely disappeared, though, because his unconscious mind knows who he is and is conveying this information through the Weir dream character. For me, this ties in with his hallucination of Sam Carter in 'Grace Under Pressure'.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2...ipts/214.shtml

CARTER: The way I see it, you're scared. You're a little panicked, you're a lot lonely. You knew you could use some help, so your subconscious is manifesting the one person you know is smarter than you.

and

CARTER (interrupting): You're essentially arguing with yourself. You realise that, right? Your mind is creating me.

and

CARTER: I'll help you stay alive as long as possible, but no -- I'm not helping you with this plan.

McKAY: So my own hallucination is saying no to me?!

CARTER: You must realise subconsciously that you need to be talked out of this.

Maybe Quicksilver will feel some kind of inner conflict if he has to feed because of what his unconscious mind knows. On the other hand, Rodney's unusual talent for creating helpful hallucinations performed a different function in 'Sunday'. Rodney blames himself for Beckett's death.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s3...ipts/317.shtml

McKAY: (He looks at Ronon for a moment.) I should have just gone fishing with him.

DEX (his voice almost breaking): Don’t.

McKAY: No. If I’d gone fishing ... if I’d checked the machine ... if I hadn’t assigned two junior guys to catalogue the lab ...

DEX (gently): Rodney. What’s done is done.

(Rodney’s eyes fill with tears.)

McKAY: I know. And that’s why it’s killing me.

Rodney won't accept Ronon's trying to say that it wasn't his fault but he does know this unconsciously and his mind creates Beckett.

McKAY: I should have just ...

BECKETT: Hey. This isn’t your fault.

McKAY: You’re just tellin’ me what I wanna hear.

BECKETT: Well, that’s what best friends do sometimes. And in this case it also happens to be true.

Maybe Rodney would be able to solve his own guilt etc about having to feed (all supposing he does have to) by creating another helpful hallucination.

[CedrusTuri]

Maybe Rodney would be able to solve his own guilt etc about having to feed (all supposing he does have to) by creating another helpful hallucination.

Or an unhelpful - (challenge guilt with bitter logic) - one (evil grin)

[Isolde]

I don't think Rodney is that bad. I have a grandfather who is pretty much what Rodney sometimes comes across as; very smart and without any ability to feel empathy. Rodney is not that much of a git.

Of course he isn't. Believe it or not, I am actually very fond of Rodney, which is more than I can say for Jackson.

[Shaded Mazoku]

I'm quite fond of him myself. He might not be in my top three, but he's close behind, mostly because he really has grown as a character over the show. He just needs a few reminders when he goes off on an arrogance trip. There's a reason why I adore some of the scenes with him and Todd; he keeps automatically trying to boss Todd around like he does his subordinates, and then remembers he's picking on a Wraith and freaks out a little. (I'm certain Todd finds that sort of amusing, really.)

Besides, Rodney is easy to handle. If he gets all huffy, just toss lemons at him until he goes away.

[Artie]

Rodney hasn't completely disappeared, though, because his unconscious mind knows who he is and is conveying this information through the Weir dream character. For me, this ties in with his hallucination of Sam Carter in 'Grace Under Pressure'.


Maybe Rodney would be able to solve his own guilt etc about having to feed (all supposing he does have to) by creating another helpful hallucination.

Do you think Elizabeth is a hallucination? Or is there something real there?

[Isolde]

Do you think Elizabeth is a hallucination? Or is there something real there?

If this is an open question, I will say that either option lead to very interesting possibilities. If Weir is a hallucination, or at least, a figment of his dream mind - as a Wraith - then I would say that his human persona has not been entirely subsumed by the retrovirus and is making a sterling effort to reassert itself. In that case, Weir would represent some part of his conscience. But, if this is Weir visiting as a non-corporeal being, you have to wonder if she's been picked up by an Ascended sometime? I also have to ask if that is possible given that the last time we saw her she was a machine?

[ciannwn]

If this is an open question, I will say that either option lead to very interesting possibilities. If Weir is a hallucination, or at least, a figment of his dream mind - as a Wraith - then I would say that his human persona has not been entirely subsumed by the retrovirus and is making a sterling effort to reassert itself. In that case, Weir would represent some part of his conscience.

Michael's Wraith personality started reasserting itself though a dream.

http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s2...ipts/218.shtml

DREAM SEQUENCE. Looking through the eyes of the dreamer, we are walking through a Wraith ship. Other Wraith can be seen.

(Michael jerks awake in his bed, gasping for breath. He stares into the room, then breathes out in relief. He gets out of bed and walks over to a small table with a jug of water on it. He pours himself a glass, then turns to face the mirror on the wall. A Wraith stares back at him, roaring.)

(Michael jerks awake in his bed, gasping for breath. He stares into the room, then breathes out in relief.)

But, if this is Weir visiting as a non-corporeal being, you have to wonder if she's been picked up by an Ascended sometime? I also have to ask if that is possible given that the last time we saw her she was a machine?

There were several Weirs in SGA. (Hope I haven't missed any)

1: The 'Before I Sleep' version who changed the timeline. She was a very old woman when she was found and she soon died.

2: Changed timeline Weir who ended up being killed by the Asurans.

3: Organic Asuran Weir (This Mortal Coil) who was killed.

4: Non-organic Asuran Weir who was last scene frozen in space.

I think we can rule out Rodney being in mind to mind contact with yet another Replicator Weir. She'd have to be on the hive ship in order to stick a finger in his brain or have found a way to infest him with nanites to create technological telepathic incidents. It would be impossible to do either without the Wraith finding out.

The ascended Ancients and Others are against any of their number helping ordinary mortals to ascend. As far as I know, only SG-1's Oma Desala did this with disastrous results when the Goa'uld, Anubis, tricked her. Even if an ascended being had defied the others to ascend changed timeline Weir, her trying to help Rodney would be a violation of the non-interference rules. She'd have been whisked away as soon as she got in contact with him.

[Isolde]

So, his personality is making an attempt to reassert itself. That is the most logical answer.

Unless someone has better information, that is?

[ciannwn]

So, his personality is making an attempt to reassert itself. That is the most logical answer.

Unless someone has better information, that is?

Only the authors know at the moment. We'll have to read the books to find out what's really going on.

[Artie]

Allegiance preview game up! http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/149537.html

[ciannwn]

Allegiance preview game up! http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/149537.html

I'll be following it with interest.