Let's Kill Hitler (3208)

[Alan]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. So if Melody/Mels/River killed the Doctor when she was a little girl before her first regeneration into Mels (Day Of The Moon), then why would she travel forward in time to Leadworth as a kid, base herself there as Mels, and wait for the Doctor to show up again? To her, she had already accomplished her mission from Kovarian. So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?

She hasn't accomplished her mission for a second time. The scene where Melody regenerated in the New York alleyway took place in 1969. She spent 30-years on Earth until she was able to meet and befriend her future parents Amy and Rory in the 1990's as "Mels" and she even engineers their relationship and therefore ensures her conception. Then she meets the Doctor in the cornfield in Leadworth. They go to 1930's Berlin and regenerates in to the face that we know as River Song and REALLY meets the Doctor for the first time. Her brainwashing is ended and she becomes an Archaeologist in the 52nd century. She meets the Doctor at various points in his time line until she is called to Utah in 2011 and witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of SOMEONE.

Also, I've just realised that Melody/Mels/River giving the Doctor her remaining regenerations just solved the issue of "13 lives for a Time Lord". When that happened, the Doctor recieved 11 more lives, assuming that Melody/Mels/River got the full compliment of 13 lives when she was conceived within the TARDIS.

In either case, the Doctor is going to live for another 11 life cycles. Can't wait to see what the 24th Doctor (the Doctor's first set of 13 lives, + the 11 new lives that he recevied from Melody/Mels/River) will look like by the time that 2060 comes around, LMFAO!

Well in The Sarah Jane Adventures the Doctor says he can regenerate 507 times. Whether he was being serious or not is another thing but if he was and River's given him her 11 remaining regenerations then the Doctor's got himself 519 lives to live now!

[Billz]

She hasn't accomplished her mission for a second time.

I said "So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?". I never said that she did accomplish her mission for a second time. I merely said tried. There's a difference.

...she is called to Utah in 2011 and witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of SOMEONE.

That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention?

PS: It was nice seeing Martha and Donna again, even though they were only voice interface holograms. The Rose hologram I could have done without though.
I wonder why Idris didn't appear as a possible voice interface hologram? Would've been great to see Idris/Sexy again!

[Teddybrown]

That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention?

As i said in my pm to you, I really dont believe it is her...
But Ill happily put my hands up and accept it if it turns out to be her...

[Billz]

As i said in my pm to you, I really dont believe it is her...
But Ill happily put my hands up and accept it if it turns out to be her...

I'm looking forward to seeing that.

[Carter1994]

Holy Cow.

That was... wow.

Figured out Mels was River as soon as she came out of the cell. Mels's swagger was EXACTLY like River's. River's regeneration scene was great as well (and the banana! ); evil!River was kinda intriguing.

[knowles2]

Melody regenerates into Mels. Mels gets sent to Leadworth to grow up at the same rate as "Kid Amy" and "Kid Rory". Mels meets up with them and the Doctor.

I do not think she was sent to Leadworth, I think she made the decision to move there by herself. In fact I think every decision she has made since she escape that Space suit has been her own decision. I hope we do get some stories about Mel past, and what she, Rory, and Pond got up to in there youth together.

I think it all but confirm, River Song kills the doctor as a child. She hinted at it when she attempted to shoot the doctor attacker. An now those time agents pretty much confirm it. Also there solid links between the person escaping the spacesuit, the regeneration in New York, and Mel. Right now it would be illogical for the person to be anyone but Melody.

Now whether that the real doctor, Flesh doctor, whether he has a plan to revive himself master style is now the big question we need to answer.
So we know the silence have evolve into some type of religious cult who is seeking out answers to a question, they probably came up with the cult idea to protect themselves from the events that took place in 1969. Wonder what the question is. An why they tried to destroy the universe.

One question I got, was the Doctor the one that started the war, with those word the British are coming. Germany would never withstood a full scale assault from France an Great Britain combine. Could the doctor warning, him seeing what he thought was a British flying phone able to penetrate into the heart of Germany with out any opposition have made him launch his war in 1939.


Apart from the above the most interesting bit of the episode was the time agents, I hope we learn more about them in the future. I wonder if they were the ones holding Song prisoner or is it someone else.
I like there android. Through I wish we got to see the space ship they beam up to.

[Teddybrown]

I do not think she was sent to Leadworth, I think she made the decision to move there by herself. In fact I think every decision she has made since she escape that Space suit has been her own decision. I hope we do get some stories about Mel past, and what she, Rory, and Pond got up to in there youth together.

I think it all but confirm, River Song kills the doctor as a child. She hinted at it when she attempted to shoot the doctor attacker. An now those time agents pretty much confirm it. Also there solid links between the person escaping the spacesuit, the regeneration in New York, and Mel. Right now it would be illogical for the person to be anyone but Melody.

Now whether that the real doctor, Flesh doctor, whether he has a plan to revive himself master style is now the big question we need to answer.
So we know the silence have evolve into some type of religious cult who is seeking out answers to a question, they probably came up with the cult idea to protect themselves from the events that took place in 1969. Wonder what the question is. An why they tried to destroy the universe.

One question I got, was the Doctor the one that started the war, with those word the British are coming. Germany would never withstood a full scale assault from France an Great Britain combine. Could the doctor warning, him seeing what he thought was a British flying phone able to penetrate into the heart of Germany with out any opposition have made him launch his war in 1939.
Apart from the above the most interesting bit of the episode was the time agents, I hope we learn more about them in the future. I wonder if they were the ones holding Song prisoner or is it someone else.
I like there android. Through I wish we got to see the space ship they beam up to.

In real life, no, but in the Whoverse, anythings possible!

Looks like they are doing the secret messages in the Fourth Dimension again...
Heres what was found
“When Reason Slept

When Mothers Wept

When soldiers Crept

The Monsters came”

As for the Doctors death, I will stand my ground till proven wrong =P lol

Also might aswell post these here too
Trailer for episode 9 Night Terrors
BBC link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/videos/p00k2lp0
Youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbhGsj9ftVM

[Carter1994]

Did anyone else notice the music that played as Rory punched Hitler?

[thecolouryes]

Umm.... this is going to be a very long reply stuffed with quoting people!

[QUOTE=Draygon;12868644]Dunno, I had suspicions who Mels was as soon as she pulled out the gun. *shrugs* It was kinda familiar. I loved the back and forth between her and the Doctor where they were trying to get the upper hand over the other

Agreed; Mels sorta bantered with the Doctor like River does. And was the same kind of pushy.

So we learned that temporal grace was always just rule one in effect, River has definitely inherited the badass gene from Rory, and it's fun to lock Hitler in a cupboard.

And leave him there! I can just imagine the mystified/horrified faces of the people that find him cowering in a cupboard...

Yeah, that was awesome! And locking Hitler in the closet...
River and the Doctors little furray for weapons was fun...
There were quite a few laughs in this episode
"Doctor not following, Doctor very lost"

Tons of laughs, yes! I loved them all, I laughed a ton in between all of my "WTF?!" moments. (Good thing the house was empty when I was yelling that at the screen, lol!

... can you think of a better way to track down a time traveler?

And I think the Doctor may have just told River his name...

Didn't the Doctor (or maybe it was river?) explain that they "keep score" by putting grafitti on historical objects? And what better way to discover historical objects than to become an archaeologist?

Also, it's clear that he told her his name. "There's only one way I could have told you that" -- from Silence in the Library or whatever episode where we met River. Speaking of which, there's that "Silence" again... Oh Mr Moffat, how long have you been planning this series plot??

• Rory just gets better and better, seriously racking up the badass credentials while remaining definitively Rory-esque. He's turning into the breakout character of the show. I love how the Doctor still has to ask permission from him to hug Amy!
• Finally finding out that the person who taught River to fly the TARDIS while the Doctor was 'busy that day' was the TARDIS...brilliant and wonderful.
• The holograms of Rose, Martha and Donna were a nice nod to the previous Doctor, helping to sew the 'new' new series to the 'old' new series.
• River's "Well, I was on my way to a gay gypsy bar mitzvah for the disabled when I suddenly thought 'Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill the Fuhrer'" made me laugh.
• Alex Kingston's post-regeneration sequence is priceless.
• Has River using all her future regenerations to resurrect the Doctor done more than just saved him from the poison?

In order:
This episode made me actually like Rory for the first time in a while.
I did like finding out how River learned to fly the TARDIS, although her line about "I'm a child of the TARDIS" (or close) certainly opened up a whole host of new questions, although in a roundabout way answered some.
Holograms were indeed a nice touch, also his asking for someone who didn't make him feel guilty showed that he does remember those guys.
River/Alex Kingston was just absolutely brilliant in this episode, lines and acting and all
I think this gives TPTB an excuse to give the Doctor a few more regenerations, at the least.

Well in The Sarah Jane Adventures the Doctor says he can regenerate 507 times. Whether he was being serious or not is another thing but if he was and River's given him her 11 remaining regenerations then the Doctor's got himself 519 lives to live now!

I would not be mad about that!

Figured out Mels was River as soon as she came out of the cell. Mels's swagger was EXACTLY like River's. River's regeneration scene was great as well (and the banana! ); evil!River was kinda intriguing.

The banana! The banana was brilliant! And a nod to my FAVOURITE story ark, also by our wonderful Mr Moffat, "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" ("There's really a banana grove at [name of weapons factory where Jack gets his gun] and you really just did that?")

Looks like they are doing the secret messages in the Fourth Dimension again...
Heres what was found
“When Reason Slept

When Mothers Wept

When soldiers Crept

The Monsters came”

Secret messages in the 4th Dimension? What's this about?

[Alan]

I said "So why try to accomplish it again, for a second time?". I never said that she did accomplish her mission. I merely said tried. There's a difference.

I know you did. And I said she HASN'T accomplished her mission for a second time.

That SOMEONE being Melody, who we know broke out of the spacesuit and regenerated in New York in the 60's. Haven't you been paying FULL attention?

52nd Century: Melody Pond is born to Amy Pond and Rory Williams. She is captured, brainwashed in to killing the Doctor.

1960's: Melody is inserted in to a NASA spacesuit.

1968: Melody breaks out of the spacesuit and regenerates in New York alleyway becoming "Mels".

1990's: "Mels" meets and befriends Amy and Rory.

2000's: "Mels" engineers Amy and Rory's relationship ensuring her future conception.

2011: August: "Mels" meets the Doctor in a cornfield in Leadworth. They travel back in time to 1938 where she is injured and regenerates in to the body and face the Doctor associates with River Song. THE DOCTOR AND RIVER'S FIRST REAL MEETING. River kills the Doctor but then after being convinced of his goodness she fights her brainwashing and sacrifices her remaining regenerations to bring the Doctor back to life. River is left in the 52nd century to live her life.

52nd Century: River becomes an archaeologist.

TIME UNKNOWN: River kills someone and is imprisoned for it.

52nd Century: River breaks out of her Stormcage prison and goes to Utah in April 2011.

April 2011: River witnesses the Doctor's death at the hands of someone wearing a NASA space suit. Along with Amy and Rory they meet a younger Doctor and they travel back in time to 1968.

1968: River helps the Doctor and his friends defeat the Silence. The Doctor returns River to her cell in the 52nd century.

Followed by:

A GOOD MAN GOES TO WAR

THE PANDORICA OPENS

THE TIME OF ANGELS

SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY

So now let me ask you something...River was already locked up for the murder of someone when she was called to Utah 2011, right? If it was a younger version of herself in the spacesuit (aka Melody) that killed the Doctor as you suggest, wouldn't River on the beach have recognised the circumstances for which she was locked away for and also not bothered attempting to shoot at her past self as she retreated in to the lake knowing full well that she is destined to be arrested for the Doctor's murder in the future and locked up in a Stormcage?

BUT unless at some point after going to attend Luna University River loses her memories, reverts back to her brainwashing and kills the Doctor in Utah in 2011 and then goes back to being her normal self I don't see how it can be her.

And from my perspective: TOO obvious. The Doctor dies. River locked up for murder. It's too much A leads to B leads to C. If it were River in that spacesuit they wouldn't have gone to such trouble to hide her identity.

If, however, it does turn out to be River then I'll hold my hands up and accept it.

[Nolamom]

Good episode. Great regeneration. Loved the banana.

[Alan]

Good episode. Great regeneration. Loved the banana.

Yep. Can't argue with that. The scene with the banana took me back to 2005 when the Doctor used his skills of sleight of hand and replaced Captain Jack's Sonic Blaster for a banana.

[Dixie_Vampiress]

Very interesting. So far I've been a bit bored with this story arc, but this was pretty cool. I gonna need a little while to try and figure out the whole timeline thing... So far it makes no sense.

Also, just thought I would add, LOVED The Doctor's coat at the start! He should so wear that more often.

[Skydiver]

anyone know, the 'immune system' of the robot...sounded like James Earl Jones......was it him or a soundalike?

this was just an enjoyable episode, just when I thought they were setting aside some arc stuff for regular episodes, they do this. But it's fine.

what i wonder about the 'silence'.....silence comes from nothing. what if the silence is the end....death of everything. (Unless it ties back to 'silence in the library'

[Quizziard]

Melody was in the suit. Melody is River. Melody in the suit killed the 1103 year old Doctor.

Yes. Yes. Unproven...

As stated above, why would she do it as a "girl" then wait doing nothing for 15 years before doing it again?
My twist: it's the younger Canton who does it!

[Quizziard]

Also, it's clear that he told her his name.

I don't think that's clear at all. Didn't she reply "She knows"? - i.e. replying to something like "tell River that I love her". It would be an odd reply to being told his name. And "tell her that John Smith loves her" is an awkward way of phrasing it. We've already had (Shakespeare Code) that someone's name is powerful - leading up to the unknown question for The Silence.

On the other hand, he did remarkably well - he knew he had less than half an hour to persuade River to fall for him and thus save his life. A quick change of clothes, a few key revelations and bam. So maybe he did name himself in that whisper. Just colour-me unconvinced for now...

[Quizziard]

anyone know, the 'immune system' of the robot...sounded like James Earl Jones......was it him or a soundalike?

I'd think it was unlikely for a British show that never, by choice/budget, strays more than a taxi-ride from Cardiff. I was actually thinking during the show that it sounded like the normal dalek-voice-guy, Nicholas Briggs.

[kcatlantis]

Am I really the only one who doesn't find this episode confusing? The answers are obvious. The only two I don't really have an answer for are how he reworks his death, and the question. I do have working theories for them thought?

[Admiral Mappalazarou]

So, do we think the Silence (species from the beginning of Series 6) are the same Silence as mentioned in this episode? A religious cult?

[BruTak]

I'd think it was unlikely for a British show that never, by choice/budget, strays more than a taxi-ride from Cardiff. I was actually thinking during the show that it sounded like the normal dalek-voice-guy, Nicholas Briggs.

Yeah, as far as I'm aware, James Earl Jones is pretty much retired from appearing in movies and TV shows, preferring to concentrate on theatre work.