Atlantis Rising: The Virtual Series

[Gate Ranger]

I read the first eppy. I loved it! Very well written. Looking forward to more. Keep up the good work!

[Eri13]

Thanks, everyone, who is reading the series and commenting! We had fun planning and plotting it and I hope everyone enjoys the stories that are to come. I'm one of the other writers on the series and RTP I was one I penned, though the entire thread helped develop the plot.

I absolutely LOVED this. It could easily have been an episode, and the characters were all spot-on. You actually made me like Keller, which is a really huge accomplishment.

spoilers

Spoiler:

• It was great to see Nancy again. I liked her, and it makes sense in canon that her poking around for John in Outcast could have gotten her involved with Homeworld security instead of just Homeland.
  
• It was nice to see Kanaan. Poor guy got more lines here than his entire run on SGA.
  
• Your original character, Mayel, seems interesting and I was actually sad to read that the other people didn't make it. I usually don't feel sadness for "red shirt" types so you did a good job.
  
• Woolsey impressed me. I liked him on the show, and you deal with him well here.
  
• Fun action, fun character moments, and fun political drama.
  

Excellent work! I'm looking forward to more.

Thanks! On a few of your bullets--

Spoiler:

* I was hoping in the few scenes I had with Terra and the others to give them enough of a personality to make you at least feel sorry that they had died. Our point throughout all of this, though we will have some humorous episodes, is to still honor those dramatic character moments that made some of us fall in love with SGA. We hope to keep the action exciting, too, but we don't want to forget that there are stakes in what these guys are doing.

* Interesting tidbit on Mayel: she was developed not because we felt strongly about having an original character, but really because of something Joe Flanigan said. Believe it or not, we had a little input from him as one of our reps mentioned to him at a con that we were starting this and he had a special request for John. Mayel is a direct result of that, though I can't tell you exactly what for. Spoilers.

* Kanaan: A good portion of us really love Teyla and feel like she's been terribly underused, so there will be a large arc dedicated to her at least in the first half of our series. Kanaan, in keeping with canon, is there, and we felt the poor guy needed to at least speak somewhat to be able to be an appropriate partner for Teyla. We hope those who are fond of Teyla will like our Athosian arc.

Wow, you really have a lot of ideas. Maybe you should start your own virtual season. There is never too much fanfic. Then you would be able to put all your thoughts together in a coherent story that some fans might enjoy.

Of course, I'm sure you realize that our plan is just the ideas that we would like to have seen implemented. There is a lot in all of SciFi that has to be taken with a grain of salt and not literally. It's part of the fun of the genre. We're happy with the characters and arcs as we are writing them but understand that others may have different ideas.

In brainstorming this, we developed plot arcs that hopefully will entertain fans, though of course we all realize that in sci-fi, there isn't much in terms of real-life plausibility. There are so many times a suspension of reality is required to truly enjoy shows like this. I think we're trying to keep a little with the spirit of what the SG series gave us, honoring characters and canon as best we can but also acknowledging that some suspension of reality will be required in what we put down, too. We're going one way, others may go another--but we're doing what we love as best we can and that's what makes this fun.

[gateraid]

Depends on how you set it up.

far more plausible than the US seizing Atlantis like the official novels and not have it end in WW3 or a bureaucrat bought into review the programme deciding Atlantis should go back and everyone agreeing to it, especially when her reasons are for exploration and protecting the Pegasus galaxy residence and attacking Wraith which could be achieve better by using 304s, which we can fully repair ourselves and uses power sources we can easily replenish and contain no surprises.

Todd managing to set up a self destruct why helping Mackay out on a project could turn the idea into a plausible one,
, he conniving enough and probably desperate enough (starvation can cause that), Rodney arrogant enough to let his guard down.

For example using the idea from Atlantis rising, Todd giving Rodney the idea for writing his encryption programme in a unknown language to help protect Atlantis systems from the Lucian alliance spies, could be adapted so that Todd writes the programme and helps to install, in the process he find a old ancient self destruct system for Atlantis which he modifies for his own purposes.

The idea that anyone in the right mind would allow Atlantis to leave earth is just to implausible for me. If Atlantis ever go back to the Pegasus galaxy it would have to be the very last option available.

Another option requiring a lot more set up story wise, would be Atlantis having to be use to mount a rescue opt using wormhole drive as no other vessel is fast enough to get there but then again a lot of lives would have to be at risk to make it worth while.

One option I always consider is a coup d'etat by the team with Todd help and they Hijack Atlantis and take it to the Pegasus Galaxy.

But Earth would never give up a Atlantis willingly never.

I have to disagree. I admit, I do like the notion that SGA characters get pissed off and take/steal Atlantis back, but it's simply too OOC for me. The way it works in this particular incarnation is that Atlantis is a weapon that people want to steal, and Earth is being attacked because of it. Removing Atlantis from Earth, while still having control and access to it, seems like a precautionary measure. They can bring it back as quickly as any of their ships (a few days at full power using the stardrive) if Earth is under any serious threat.

One could make the arguement that after the events of TR II (when they ended up with a full compliment of ZPM's) that they should have fired up the stardrive (after it was fixed) and flown the city back to Earth. The fact that they didn't says to me that TPTB thought there were good reasons to be in Pegasus.

[Falcon Horus]

The second episode is being posted as I type this - Return To Pegasus, part 2

[Skie]

Wow, this is really well written!! And finally you give those poor underused characters of SGA something to do. I really liked how you portrayed Teyla.
You were able to capture the characters right from the series but there lies also the root of the problem for me not being able to really enjoy Atlantis Rising. Because from all their decisions the SGA team shouldn't be those good guys they used to be. You are making an attempt to cover this by pointing out their mistakes, Woolsey admitting that in INQUISITION, the alliance had some true points and with Mayel saying "They have a habit of abandoning those who would be allies. And sacrificing lives when it suits their needs." But the SGA character mainly seem not to see that, in fact they want to save all of the PG natives but I think if all the PG natives would consist of Genii (or other people they had problems with/didn't agree with them), the SGA team would be ok with leaving Atlantis on Earth, even though Atlantis belongs to the PG natives.

Some other points I noted:
Carson saying - "I know it sounds a bit boastful, but truthfully, no one has been able to ally the races of the Pegasus galaxy like Atlantis. It was part of the reason Pegasus natives were distrustful of us. Because we wielded power and influence the likes of which hadn’t been seen." - made me wonder. When did Atlantis really try to ally people? (Ok, the Travelers but that bunch of people deserved an alliance the least) It were the PG native itself who tried to make an alliance in INQUISITION.

And in this conversation:
Carson: “ we took on the Wraith on something of a grand scale.”
Nancy: “Most of that was just chance, wasn’t it?”
Carson: “Or ingenuity. You don’t have many Rodney McKays or Colonel John Sheppards running about. So when there are two in the same place…”

I would have preferred that the characters acknowledge that most of their achievements were more luck than anything else, because for all their mistakes and screwing up, they came away way too good in the series.

Same in line is the treatment and opinions about Todd:

Shepp: “And, personally, I don’t give much credit to the word of a starving, imprisoned Wraith.
Shepp: "(...) even Todd probably deserved better than this fate. Well, maybe not Todd."

For me, Todd was always a lot more honorable than the team. He never betrayed them (the incidents in MW and TLT were understandable since he was imprisoned/believed he was betrayed) but the team betrayed him on several occasions. He never got anything out of value when he worked with them. No, he even got imprisoned again and threatened to kill.
I'm also a bit curious of how you are going to explain that Todd survived 9 months without feeding.

About the travelers getting updated, as far as I remember they just got help to be battle ready and with repairs. From BAMSR: LARRIN: Well, they already gave us a head start when they got us battle-ready" and TLT: KATANA: Zelenka has been a big help with ship repairs. We should have her ready to fly in no time."

As for our new Big Bad Guys at the end of the season, let's just say that we've got something lined up that will make the Wraith look like tame little chipmunks in comparison. Be afraid. Be very afraid. *evil grin*

And I hopped the Wraith would finally get their well deserved place as being a real and the most dangerous threat to Atlantis and Earth.


Again I have to point out, your story is very well made and I don't want to be a spoilsport, it's just that I didn't like what happened to the characters in SGA and naturally, you have to continue with the mess that TPTB left behind for a sixth season. And of course we all want our lovable characters back and probably wouldn't be happy with characters that contemplated their wrong decisions all the time and seeing the changes they should be going through according to their decisions in S4 and 5.
For me, the only way to save SGA would be a reboot of SGA starting after THE SIEGE I. So I was wondering, did you also consider to do a rewrite of Atlantis? Or did you want to be as canon as possible? But I have to admit a rewrite would be a lot harder and time consuming as then one season wouldn't be enough to write.


This is my opinion alone and I hope I didn't offend you.

[WraithRichard]

I agree with the Todd and wraith thing.

The wraith were meant to be the Big Bad of the Pegasus galaxy. It's kinda disappointing that so much effort and work went into concocting something else instead of giving them a boost.

Also, while I can believe the team, for any of a number of reasons decided to ignore or justify their treatment of Todd, Sheppard's promise wasn't to shoot him just when he felt like it, but when Todd intentionally did something that endangered them all. I can't say Todd would be against what he feels is much more humane, but he's smart enough to know the exact details of Sheppard's promise.

Also, it took longer than just nine months for the Gennii to make him lose hope, Todd wouldn't help Rodney in the lab without getting something (even getting shot) out of it.

[g.o.d]

very cool. I like this fanfic! it's very interesting

[Falcon Horus]

I'll give it my best shot... *takes deep breath* ...though I'm not a writer of the series, just a beta.

You were able to capture the characters right from the series but there lies also the root of the problem for me not being able to really enjoy Atlantis Rising.

Well, we decided on continuing the series in a virtual realm, and thus that means taking what we have and go from there. Can't just go about changing a character, turn them upside down and inside out to suit the story and throw every established knowledge overboard like it has no meaning.

But that's just my opinion really...

Because from all their decisions the SGA team shouldn't be those good guys they used to be. You are making an attempt to cover this by pointing out their mistakes, Woolsey admitting that in INQUISITION, the alliance had some true points and with Mayel saying "They have a habit of abandoning those who would be allies. And sacrificing lives when it suits their needs." But the SGA character mainly seem not to see that, in fact they want to save all of the PG natives but I think if all the PG natives would consist of Genii (or other people they had problems with/didn't agree with them), the SGA team would be ok with leaving Atlantis on Earth, even though Atlantis belongs to the PG natives.

They have been established as the good guys in the show - and while for me personally Inquisition was indeed a bit of a failure, it is what it is really... can't much change that.

I think the need to want to save all the PG natives comes from the knowledge that we have the technology to do so. But of course, there's a big difference between wanting to save the entire galaxy and actually doing it, especially with the obstacles they have been facing. Not everyone wants to be saved by these strangers...

And no, Atlantis doesn't belong to the PG natives. Atlantis is the property of the Ancients who seeded life in the PG. The natives could be considered their legacy but they don't have the knowledge to operate the city/ship.

But I do agree that Atlantis should stay in Pegasus because it is one of the few defences strong enough to take on the Wraith.

Some other points I noted:
Carson saying - "I know it sounds a bit boastful, but truthfully, no one has been able to ally the races of the Pegasus galaxy like Atlantis. It was part of the reason Pegasus natives were distrustful of us. Because we wielded power and influence the likes of which hadn’t been seen." - made me wonder. When did Atlantis really try to ally people? (Ok, the Travelers but that bunch of people deserved an alliance the least) It were the PG native itself who tried to make an alliance in INQUISITION.

They allied with the Athosians, the kids-planet (in order to protect them I imagine), the Travelers... Carson offered up his medical expertise in a Doctor-Without-Borders fashion.
There was the big allience in BAMSR when they attacked the Asurans.

They didn't try to make an alliance in Inquisition - they were putting the team on trial for what they had done to the PG natives. They were (rightfully) blamed for a lot of the bad things that happened - like waking the Wraith, and altering the programming of the Asurans.

And in this conversation:
Carson: “ we took on the Wraith on something of a grand scale.”
Nancy: “Most of that was just chance, wasn’t it?”
Carson: “Or ingenuity. You don’t have many Rodney McKays or Colonel John Sheppards running about. So when there are two in the same place…”

I would have preferred that the characters acknowledge that most of their achievements were more luck than anything else, because for all their mistakes and screwing up, they came away way too good in the series.

Mmm... I guess you're right, but I doubt you'll ever hear Rodney say that what he accomplished was by sheer luck.

For me, Todd was always a lot more honorable than the team. He never betrayed them (the incidents in MW and TLT were understandable since he was imprisoned/believed he was betrayed) but the team betrayed him on several occasions. He never got anything out of value when he worked with them. No, he even got imprisoned again and threatened to kill.

I think as far as Todd is concerned -> The enemy of my enemy is my friend, doesn't mean that you trust them inexplicably. They don't trust Todd as far as they can throw him, while Todd just makes use of his resources. He takes what he can and is not afraid to use whatever information he has on Atlantis to get what he wants. It's actually quite astounding they haven't offed Todd yet for the things he knows.
And if Todd cared about it that he never really got anything out of him working together with the expedition he would just have stopped. He obviously sees something beneficial in this working relationship or he would have have given up a long time ago.

I'm also a bit curious of how you are going to explain that Todd survived 9 months without feeding.

One has got to wonder...

And I hopped the Wraith would finally get their well deserved place as being a real and the most dangerous threat to Atlantis and Earth.

The Wraith are indeed (or were) formidable enemies - but they can't just be the only ones. That would be ridiculous at best.

So I was wondering, did you also consider to do a rewrite of Atlantis? Or did you want to be as canon as possible? But I have to admit a rewrite would be a lot harder and time consuming as then one season wouldn't be enough to write.

I don't think there was ever talk about a rewrite. We always talked about continuing with a virtual season 6. There was a lot of discussion about what that would be like, and settled with a canon approach.

But there's no one stopping you from doing a reboot... I'd gladly read your take.

This is my opinion alone and I hope I didn't offend you.

Thank you for the input! Much appreciated.

[Choo1701]

I'll give it my best shot... *takes deep breath* ...though I'm not a writer of the series, just a beta.

Which means the writers hate you and don't listen, the readers don't know you, you can't ''meddle'' too much, no one returns your calls and you don't get paid!! Tough job, but someone's got to do it!

Chapter Two shaping up okay, but the Ronon/Teyla/ Mayel talk was a bit clunky. It was a massive information dump, and sort of awkward because the characters were cold and didn't react much to the 'news' and tbh, it changed absoutly nothing; Ronon and Teyla were going no matter what Mayel told them!

But on the plus side: FUN! Still enjoying it, and its never a good idea to jump into the middle of a Wraith fleet unannounced ("Oh hai there!!")

[Falcon Horus]

Which means the writers hate you and don't listen, the readers don't know you, you can't ''meddle'' too much, no one returns your calls and you don't get paid!! Tough job, but someone's got to do it!

Yup, that pretty much covers it.

[Eri13]

Wow, this is really well written!! And finally you give those poor underused characters of SGA something to do. I really liked how you portrayed Teyla.
You were able to capture the characters right from the series but there lies also the root of the problem for me not being able to really enjoy Atlantis Rising. Because from all their decisions the SGA team shouldn't be those good guys they used to be. You are making an attempt to cover this by pointing out their mistakes, Woolsey admitting that in INQUISITION, the alliance had some true points and with Mayel saying "They have a habit of abandoning those who would be allies. And sacrificing lives when it suits their needs." But the SGA character mainly seem not to see that, in fact they want to save all of the PG natives but I think if all the PG natives would consist of Genii (or other people they had problems with/didn't agree with them), the SGA team would be ok with leaving Atlantis on Earth, even though Atlantis belongs to the PG natives.

Some other points I noted:
Carson saying - "I know it sounds a bit boastful, but truthfully, no one has been able to ally the races of the Pegasus galaxy like Atlantis. It was part of the reason Pegasus natives were distrustful of us. Because we wielded power and influence the likes of which hadn’t been seen." - made me wonder. When did Atlantis really try to ally people? (Ok, the Travelers but that bunch of people deserved an alliance the least) It were the PG native itself who tried to make an alliance in INQUISITION.

And in this conversation:
Carson: “ we took on the Wraith on something of a grand scale.”
Nancy: “Most of that was just chance, wasn’t it?”
Carson: “Or ingenuity. You don’t have many Rodney McKays or Colonel John Sheppards running about. So when there are two in the same place…”

I would have preferred that the characters acknowledge that most of their achievements were more luck than anything else, because for all their mistakes and screwing up, they came away way too good in the series.

Same in line is the treatment and opinions about Todd:

Shepp: “And, personally, I don’t give much credit to the word of a starving, imprisoned Wraith.
Shepp: "(...) even Todd probably deserved better than this fate. Well, maybe not Todd."

For me, Todd was always a lot more honorable than the team. He never betrayed them (the incidents in MW and TLT were understandable since he was imprisoned/believed he was betrayed) but the team betrayed him on several occasions. He never got anything out of value when he worked with them. No, he even got imprisoned again and threatened to kill.
I'm also a bit curious of how you are going to explain that Todd survived 9 months without feeding.

About the travelers getting updated, as far as I remember they just got help to be battle ready and with repairs. From BAMSR: LARRIN: Well, they already gave us a head start when they got us battle-ready" and TLT: KATANA: Zelenka has been a big help with ship repairs. We should have her ready to fly in no time."

And I hopped the Wraith would finally get their well deserved place as being a real and the most dangerous threat to Atlantis and Earth.

Again I have to point out, your story is very well made and I don't want to be a spoilsport, it's just that I didn't like what happened to the characters in SGA and naturally, you have to continue with the mess that TPTB left behind for a sixth season. And of course we all want our lovable characters back and probably wouldn't be happy with characters that contemplated their wrong decisions all the time and seeing the changes they should be going through according to their decisions in S4 and 5.
For me, the only way to save SGA would be a reboot of SGA starting after THE SIEGE I. So I was wondering, did you also consider to do a rewrite of Atlantis? Or did you want to be as canon as possible? But I have to admit a rewrite would be a lot harder and time consuming as then one season wouldn't be enough to write.

This is my opinion alone and I hope I didn't offend you.

I agree with the Todd and wraith thing.

The wraith were meant to be the Big Bad of the Pegasus galaxy. It's kinda disappointing that so much effort and work went into concocting something else instead of giving them a boost.

Also, while I can believe the team, for any of a number of reasons decided to ignore or justify their treatment of Todd, Sheppard's promise wasn't to shoot him just when he felt like it, but when Todd intentionally did something that endangered them all. I can't say Todd would be against what he feels is much more humane, but he's smart enough to know the exact details of Sheppard's promise.

Also, it took longer than just nine months for the Gennii to make him lose hope, Todd wouldn't help Rodney in the lab without getting something (even getting shot) out of it.

FH did a great job of answering all the questions already, so I'll just throw in my two cents.

As far as our guys being 'the good guys', part of the narrative style we're using is character POV, so they're always going to be on their own side. I don't think anyone doubts that Atlantis has made mistakes and poor choices from an objective perspective, but for the expedition members, it was the best they could do.

In the initial arguments by Shen and Strom in RTP I, they more than once point out to Woolsey that the battles won by Atlantis were more luck than skill. That was my contribution to recognizing that fact. Their perspective, of course, comes from reading reports and not surviving the battles from first-hand experience. Carson, on the other hand, has seen Rodney and John pull those last minutes saves more than once personally, so his confidence in their abilities is from knowing what they can do. It's happened one to many times from both Rodney and John for it, in his mind, to be simple luck.

As far as the Wraith--I enjoyed them as an enemy, but I think how we approached them was trying to untangle all the knotted plotlines we had with them by Season 5. With Todd, Michael's experiments, the Hoffan plague, civil war, etc, they seemed to fan out in different directions with no clear explanation as to what went where anymore. So we're trying to sort it, and I think in everything we compiled the realization sort of became 'us or them'. To keep the story flowing, we needed to develop a story about the Wraith that became more than just what they were in Season 1. Honestly, I really enjoyed their 'badness' in S1, I liked the Queen evolution backstory in S2 and I liked Todd's character in S3, especially the 'Wraith brothers' bit. It's a shame we didn't get more evolving those aspects of them. But now, to keep everything flowing, we felt we needed to continue the evolution of the Wraith.

As to Todd--honorable went out the window for me when he stole the ZPMs during the Replicator battle. I think Todd is out for Todd and what benefits him in the same way Atlantis puts itself first. For me, it was established in CG that Todd and Sheppard are parallels of one another. John took the first trusting step; Todd reciprocated, but neither does what they do because it's the right thing to do. Todd has been used by the Atlantis crew, but I also think Atlantis has been used by Todd as well. And what it kept coming back to for me is that Todd keeps returning, so he sort of keeps asking for it. Because I think he knows its to his benefit to take the gamble.

[WraithRichard]

Tat doesn't really address my points about Todd.

[gateraid]

Like Falcon Horus, (who has already covered most of this) I have been involved in this, but only in a beta-ing capacity, not writing. But I will add my two cents here.

Wow, this is really well written!! And finally you give those poor underused characters of SGA something to do. I really liked how you portrayed Teyla.

I'm looking forward to Box of Dreams - it's Teyla-centric

You were able to capture the characters right from the series but there lies also the root of the problem for me not being able to really enjoy Atlantis Rising. Because from all their decisions the SGA team shouldn't be those good guys they used to be. You are making an attempt to cover this by pointing out their mistakes, Woolsey admitting that in INQUISITION, the alliance had some true points and with Mayel saying "They have a habit of abandoning those who would be allies. And sacrificing lives when it suits their needs." But the SGA character mainly seem not to see that, in fact they want to save all of the PG natives but I think if all the PG natives would consist of Genii (or other people they had problems with/didn't agree with them), the SGA team would be ok with leaving Atlantis on Earth, even though Atlantis belongs to the PG natives.

True, I guess if all the races of the PG were like the Genii, then maybe Atlantis wouldn't have needed to have gone back at all. A good many of the PG races were essentially villagers, with no real defence against the Wraith. I know replicator Weir/Fran said in GitM that there were other more technologically races out there, but we never got to see them. Atlantis lead the charge on the replicator war - the Genii, or the other coalition races were not seen to be doing anything. The information that Atlantis recieved whilst on Earth was that the war was being lost, and that even the Genii (the most powerful known race in PG behind Atlantis) feared failure.

Some other points I noted:
Carson saying - "I know it sounds a bit boastful, but truthfully, no one has been able to ally the races of the Pegasus galaxy like Atlantis. It was part of the reason Pegasus natives were distrustful of us. Because we wielded power and influence the likes of which hadn’t been seen." - made me wonder. When did Atlantis really try to ally people? (Ok, the Travelers but that bunch of people deserved an alliance the least) It were the PG native itself who tried to make an alliance in INQUISITION.

They made the alliance in BASMR in order to defeat the Asurans, which even involved the Wraith.

And in this conversation:
Carson: “ we took on the Wraith on something of a grand scale.”
Nancy: “Most of that was just chance, wasn’t it?”
Carson: “Or ingenuity. You don’t have many Rodney McKays or Colonel John Sheppards running about. So when there are two in the same place…”

I would have preferred that the characters acknowledge that most of their achievements were more luck than anything else, because for all their mistakes and screwing up, they came away way too good in the series.

It's half and half though, isn't it? There's a lot of luck, but there's also a lot of brilliance. Carson doesn't deny luck as an explanation with his response, he merely adds that ingenuity played a part too. At least, that's my interpretation.

Same in line is the treatment and opinions about Todd:

Shepp: “And, personally, I don’t give much credit to the word of a starving, imprisoned Wraith.
Shepp: "(...) even Todd probably deserved better than this fate. Well, maybe not Todd."

For me, Todd was always a lot more honorable than the team. He never betrayed them (the incidents in MW and TLT were understandable since he was imprisoned/believed he was betrayed) but the team betrayed him on several occasions. He never got anything out of value when he worked with them. No, he even got imprisoned again and threatened to kill.
I'm also a bit curious of how you are going to explain that Todd survived 9 months without feeding.

It depends on what you mean by team. Todd specifically betrayed Teyla by setting her up to be a wraith queen without telling her, which resulted in him taking over the position when she returned to Atlantis. He saw an opportunity to get into a position of authority, and took it. Same as when he assisted them with the replicators - he wouldn't have come up with the plan to steal the ZPM's in the spur of the moment. He'd have had time to think about it first, and come up with a plan. Once again, he was doing something that Atlantis had thought was helping, but he did it for his own reasons.

As for the feeding, I can tell you it has been discussed, although I'm unsure if it will be brought up at any point. We do know he can survive for a few months, as he did before he was allowed to eat the guy from Miller's Crossing. Again, in this situation, he helped, but did it for his own reason - food.

I don't think anyone could argue that Todd isn't capable of helping Atlantis, it's more than nobody can be sure of his motivations until the other shoe drops.

I agree with the Todd and wraith thing.

The wraith were meant to be the Big Bad of the Pegasus galaxy. It's kinda disappointing that so much effort and work went into concocting something else instead of giving them a boost.

Also, while I can believe the team, for any of a number of reasons decided to ignore or justify their treatment of Todd, Sheppard's promise wasn't to shoot him just when he felt like it, but when Todd intentionally did something that endangered them all. I can't say Todd would be against what he feels is much more humane, but he's smart enough to know the exact details of Sheppard's promise.

Also, it took longer than just nine months for the Gennii to make him lose hope, Todd wouldn't help Rodney in the lab without getting something (even getting shot) out of it.

Tat doesn't really address my points about Todd.

We don't know what that is, yet. As I mentioned, his motivations aren't always clear until after the fact.


I hope your questions were answered satisfactorily

[Skie]

Thank you for the input! Much appreciated.

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that, I was a tad worried.

Well, we decided on continuing the series in a virtual realm, and thus that means taking what we have and go from there. Can't just go about changing a character, turn them upside down and inside out to suit the story and throw every established knowledge overboard like it has no meaning.

As said above I can understand your decision but it wouldn't be turning characters upside down but the logical consequences of many of their immoral actions.

And no, Atlantis doesn't belong to the PG natives. Atlantis is the property of the Ancients who seeded life in the PG. The natives could be considered their legacy but they don't have the knowledge to operate the city/ship.

That is what I meant, sorry, should have been more clear. But Atlantis behaves as if they own the city, which they do not. Look how they got pissed when they didn't get the ZPM in BROTHERHOOD, they had no legal right to it yet they behaved as if was their property. Yes, they were tricked by Sanir (I think that was her name) but they also tried to trick her by claiming they were the Ancients or at least their descendants, which they are not.

They allied with the Athosians, the kids-planet (in order to protect them I imagine), the Travelers... Carson offered up his medical expertise in a Doctor-Without-Borders fashion. There was the big alliance in BAMSR when they attacked the Asurans.

Athosians: Do you really call that an alliance? They more or less got shoved out of the city, they never really contacted them after they lived on the new planet. For me, an alliance produces benefits for both groups and leads to exchange of knowledge and information, did we see that with the Athiosans? Nope.
Kids-planet: again no alliance here, they so nicely gave them back THEIR ZPM and even suggested later to steal it from them.
Travelers: They just kept an open relationship and got in contact with Atlantis when they needed something (Altantis couldn't even contact them), not what I would call an alliance.
BAMSR: This was a temporary alliance.
Carson: I don't consider one man helping PG natives as an alliance with Atlantis, sorry.

There was no long term alliance initiated by Atlantis which united all the PG natives willing to join.

They didn't try to make an alliance in Inquisition

Yes, because the alliance was already established and we just hear from its existence in this episode:

KELORE: This is Shiana of the Tribes of Santhal ... (he looks at the older man) ... and Dimas of the Free Peoples of Riva. We speak on behalf of the Coalition.
KELORE: The Coalition grows in strength and influence every day.

And this is also an interesting little conversation:

WOOLSEY: We've been content to keep to ourselves up until now, but if it's a choice between getting pushed out of the game and taking a more active part, well that's no choice at all, is it?
WOOLSEY: On top of that, I had to commit Atlantis to a much larger day to day participation in the politics of the Pegasus galaxy.
WOOLSEY: Can't wait to explain that in my report!
SHEPPARD: Yeah. Well, what's the point of being out here if we're not gonna try to make a difference, right?

Atlantis seems not very willing to join with the other PG natives let alone building an alliance and Shepp only halfheartedly agrees to his own statement.

Mmm... I guess you're right, but I doubt you'll ever hear Rodney say that what he accomplished was by sheer luck.

Er, but Carson is not Rodney.

I think as far as Todd is concerned -> The enemy of my enemy is my friend, doesn't mean that you trust them inexplicably. They don't trust Todd as far as they can throw him, while Todd just makes use of his resources. He takes what he can and is not afraid to use whatever information he has on Atlantis to get what he wants. It's actually quite astounding they haven't offed Todd yet for the things he knows.
And if Todd cared about it that he never really got anything out of him working together with the expedition he would just have stopped. He obviously sees something beneficial in this working relationship or he would have have given up a long time ago.

Yes, Todd knows that as long as the Wraith need to feed on humans they will be enemies. He doesn't hide this fact but acknowledges it to Sam in BAMSR. And he DID call Shepp brother in CG, why would he do that if not to implicate that he trusts Shepp and doesn't want to betray him. I never figured out the sense behind the treatment of Todd in THE SEER, which was their first encounter after the events in CG. Why so distrustful, when Todd showed nothing but honor and even gave Shepp back his life, which was not part of the bargain.

Well, as for beneficial working relationship:

CG:
+ shepp escapes alive
+ gets back his years

+ Todd escapes alive

SEER
+ SGA gets warned
+ SGA gets the virus (small part missing)

-Todd looses his hive ship
-Todd is imprisoned

MC
+ McKay’s sister gets saved
+ have the programming of shutting down the earth made nanites

(+) Todd gets feed (but only because they needed him at exactly that moment and it is Atlantis fault that he is starving)

BAMSR
+ SGA gets help for the programming
+ SGA defeats the replicators

+Todd gets his freedom (but only because they need the ships)
+ replicators destroyed
(+) Todd gets ZPMs (but not thanks to Atlantis)

SOW
+ SGA knows now about the cloning
+ SGA destroys the cloning facility with Todd’s help

+Todd escapes with SGA’s help (after they threaten him to kill)

KINDRED I
+SGA gets the location of one of Michael’s facilities

+ Todd gets the research on the Hoffan drug (but did he get all? We never see if SGA kept their part of the bargain)

QUEEN
+SGA gets control over the alliance with Teyla

+ Todd becomes head of the alliance
- Todd looses ships and soldiers

FC/TLT
- Todd looses two ships thanks to SGA

INFECTION
+ Atlantis gets a hive ship
+ knowledge about the new retrovirus’s effect on Wraiths

- Todd looses his entire crew and ship

EATG
+SGA gets warned
+SGA gets two ZPMs

-Todd gets imprisoned and threatened to kill

I summarize: out of 10 events, Todd only gets equal value out of two and nothing out in 5 encounters. Do you REALLY believe that after the events of INFECTION, Todd would place his live into the hands of Atlantis again??
I don’t think so. He could have easily warned them and given them the ZPM’s without getting imprisoned, especially after the superhive didn’t pose an imminent threat to him and his alliance.
He got betrayed (or Atlantis tried to betray) a lot more from Atlantis than he did betray them and as I said before I don't consider MW or TLT betrayal. He worked with Atlantis repeatedly because TPTB wanted it in order for the plot to work. In reality Todd would have stopped working with them a long time ago. But I could imagine him exchanging information like in KINDRED I but surely never an alliance with that treacherous bunch of people.

One has got to wonder...

Hm, it can't be a permanent solution than because otherwise Todd wouldn't starve.

The Wraith are indeed (or were) formidable enemies - but they can't just be the only ones. That would be ridiculous at best.

Oh, I agree that only one enemy gets boring but one has to be the top shot and I always considered that to be the Wraith since they defeated the Ancients.

But there's no one stopping you from doing a reboot... I'd gladly read your take.

I certainly have some ideas but I think I lack the writing skills, so no reboot unfortunately.

[Skie]

Sorry have to do it in two posts, too long in one.

As far as our guys being 'the good guys', part of the narrative style we're using is character POV, so they're always going to be on their own side. I don't think anyone doubts that Atlantis has made mistakes and poor choices from an objective perspective, but for the expedition members, it was the best they could do.

Not always, or do you really consider their actions in CONDEMNED (a lot of innocent people got culled and criminals escaped), OUTCAST OR MC as the best they could do?

In the initial arguments by Shen and Strom in RTP I, they more than once point out to Woolsey that the battles won by Atlantis were more luck than skill. That was my contribution to recognizing that fact. (...) It's happened one to many times from both Rodney and John for it, in his mind, to be simple luck.

Well, the way Shen and Strom were portrayed you could also just see it as ignorance and that it was not really true what they said. Now we could argue but I just say it was simple luck that TPTB provided. 2x two hive ships conveniently explode, never any consequences when they get caught, their hive ship was heavily damaged in SoW but they still can outrun the other ship and destroy the cloning facility, Ronon with his superhero act in TLT ..., I could go on and on.
And sadly you did a bit the same with your second part when Atlantis launches the PJ to attack vulnerable parts of the hive ships. The Wraith have fought the Ancients for over 100 years, I'm sure they have developed some counteractions against cloaked PJ. And even if not, they KNOW Atlantis has cloaked PJ, they could simple have a swarm of protective Darts around their sensitive systems. Please, don't make the Wraith as dumb as TPTB made them. I hope, you give them a chance to show their ingenuity. I had hoped a bit you would let the Wraith make use of the Hoffan drug research Todd acquired or the PJ they got in CONDEMNED or at least put that experiment of PHANTOMS into good use because obviously the device worked well.

As far as the Wraith--I enjoyed them as an enemy, but I think how we approached them was trying to untangle all the knotted plotlines we had with them by Season 5. (...) But now, to keep everything flowing, we felt we needed to continue the evolution of the Wraith.

Yes, I can imagine that is some hard work to clean up the mess of TPTB.
Well, you could evolve them into the treated enemies they should have been as they were beings that rivaled the powers of the Ancients and they had never before encountered a race which had this ability.

As to Todd--honorable went out the window for me when he stole the ZPMs during the Replicator battle.

I'm sorry but why do you consider getting those ZPMs a betrayal? There was never an agreement about those ZPMs. They agreed to defeat the replicators together and that's what happened. What would have really been betrayal, if they had some other hive ships in store, which did not participate in the battle, and went with them to the meeting point and attacked the humans but they DID NOT DO THAT. It's not Todd's fault if Atlantis never thought of the opportunity to acquire some ZPM's. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't consider Atlantis taking some ZPM's and eventually use them against the Wraith as betrayal, would you? No I think the viewers would congratulated them for this brilliant move. It was a temporary alliance they both knew that and you would be naive to think this alliance would hold because as Todd agreed with Sam, in the end they will be enemies again. Both sides knew and accepted that fact.

Because I think he knows its to his benefit to take the gamble.

As I pointed out before, those benefits were marginal to say the least.

It's half and half though, isn't it? There's a lot of luck, but there's also a lot of brilliance. Carson doesn't deny luck as an explanation with his response, he merely adds that ingenuity played a part too. At least, that's my interpretation.

It's probably about 90% luck and 10% achievement the way TPTB wrote the plot. And the funny thing is, the Wraith never have luck. Just look at Todd, he gets betrayed three times by one of his underlings (MW, SoW, EATG), that's quite some bad luck and oh, in SoW and EATG it helped Atlantis a lot, funny isn't it.

It depends on what you mean by team. Todd specifically betrayed Teyla by setting her up to be a wraith queen without telling her, which resulted in him taking over the position when she returned to Atlantis. He saw an opportunity to get into a position of authority, and took it.

He didn't tell her that they would kill the queen but he probably knew that the primary would never accept the plan. And he didn't tell Atlantis because they would probably think it's too dangerous and maybe didn't believe him because they don't know anything of Wraith society (sadly never really explored). His plan was very risky for himself because if it failed his life would be at stake like Teyla's, that is not really betrayal. And he wouldn't be the head of the alliance but Teyla and Teyla uses this fact to threaten him later. And look what Teyla did, she betrays him a lot more by killing all those Wraith which are her subjects. Pretty stupid move considering they want an alliance with the Wraith, not very convincing if you kill them right in front of Todd. Probably that is why Todd was very reluctant afterward to agree to the retrovirus.

Same as when he assisted them with the replicators - he wouldn't have come up with the plan to steal the ZPM's in the spur of the moment. He'd have had time to think about it first, and come up with a plan. Once again, he was doing something that Atlantis had thought was helping, but he did it for his own reasons.

No, he couldn't have come up with it because his original plan was to deploy the virus against the replicators but thanks to Atlantis some part was missing and that's probably why it didn't work. And it wasn't his plan to attack the planet of the replicators and use the hive ships to assist them that was Sheppard. So he really helped them and had no hidden agenda. After he knew the plan he saw the opportunity to act but it's not his fault if Atlantis didn't think of it and it would certainly be dumb to tell them "Oh guys, BTW did you think about taking some ZPMs?". And he pointed out in SoW that he wanted to use the cloning facility to wipe out the other Wraiths. Of course he could have lied but I got the impression he was sincere when he said that.

As for the feeding, I can tell you it has been discussed, although I'm unsure if it will be brought up at any point. We do know he can survive for a few months, as he did before he was allowed to eat the guy from Miller's Crossing. Again, in this situation, he helped, but did it for his own reason - food.

Excuse me but the reason why he was starving was Atlantis. I think it's only fair in his point of view to provide him with food because Atlantis KNEW EXACTLY what they got themselves into when they took Todd prisoner. That move still doesn't make any sense to me. They just could have taken him to another planet through the gate, question him and then release or kill him without risking to reveal the location of Atlantis or maneuvering themselves into the dilemma of how to feed a Wraith.
According to INSTINCT "It feeds three, four times a year, takes two or three people each time." Sorry, but I'm not going to buy that he simply hold out 9 months without feeding. Hope, you have a better explanation.

I don't think anyone could argue that Todd isn't capable of helping Atlantis, it's more than nobody can be sure of his motivations until the other shoe drops.

Well, same with Atlantis. Didn't they twice suggest to betray him after they had an agreement in THE SEER, oh yes they did!

Also, it took longer than just nine months for the Gennii to make him lose hope, Todd wouldn't help Rodney in the lab without getting something (even getting shot) out of it.

Completely agree with you.

[Southern Red]

They call me the "showrunner" for lack of a better term. Chief editor, general manager, breaker of ties and maker of the hard decisions would all also work.

I'd first like to thank everyone for the thoughtful and in depth comments and responses to comments and most of all, thanks to those who are reading our project.

The best thing about fanfic is that it can be whatever you want it to be. Our group spent more hours than we can count deciding just how we wanted to focus our writing and in what direction we wanted to take every aspect of our virtual season 6. The first decision, and the one that drives our project, is the choice to stay as closely aligned with canon as we can manage. This was a sometimes painful process because there were things on screen that we would gladly have ignored. McKeller, comes to mind. But we can't pick and choose, so McKeller stays. We have advisers from all sections of fandom--techies, shippers, non-shippers, and those who just want a good story with lots of humor and action. But, in spite of all that, some people are not going to find our stories to their liking. Fine. There are a ton of other virtual seasons out there. Maybe one will appeal to those fans. And if you have what you think is a better idea than all of us, go for it. Do your own season.

One thing I can promise you is that our episodes will be exciting and the adventure will continue. I've just finished editing the most amazing space battle I have ever seen and have seen old characters that were formerly wallpaper taken in an exciting and dominant direction. In the coming days and weeks, you will get the answers to some of your questions and will see the Pegasus natives take a larger role in the protection of their galaxy as they come to understand the place and importance of the Ancient city and the 'Lanteans.

As for Todd, he's not going away any time soon. In fact he's going to be up to his old tricks shortly and once again Teyla will have to revisit her Wraithy side. Todd will forever and always be scheming and playing a strategy game with John Sheppard. It's fun for him and he expects to win. We'll just see about that. The feeding question has been discussed in length all across fandom with little resolution. I think it's one of those things we have to handwave, just like how everyone speaks English. If someone has heard an official explanation, I'm sure they will tell us, but as far as I know, there has never been a believable one. Besides, some things we just don't want to think about.

So stay with us. Be patient, and hopefully, you will be surprised and delighted.

Skie, I didn't see your two in depth posts before I wrote the above. You obviously want a more Wraithcentric season. That is not what we envision. To us, the Wraith are the bad guys and we agree with Ronon and Teyla that they are never to be trusted too far. That is canon and how we chose to view them. Your ideas are very interesting and I think you need to get a team together and make your vision a reality. Find good writers that agree with your ideas and make a plan. We'll look forward to your finished product.

[gateraid]

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that, I was a tad worried.



As said above I can understand your decision but it wouldn't be turning characters upside down but the logical consequences of many of their immoral actions.



That is what I meant, sorry, should have been more clear. But Atlantis behaves as if they own the city, which they do not. Look how they got pissed when they didn't get the ZPM in BROTHERHOOD, they had no legal right to it yet they behaved as if was their property. Yes, they were tricked by Sanir (I think that was her name) but they also tried to trick her by claiming they were the Ancients or at least their descendants, which they are not.

Actually, they are. The human race, as it stands today, is the next evolution of our (the Ancients) form. This is in the show, and is canon. In fact, it is the whole premise of the show, and how the people of Earth can operate the city via their ATA gene. But you're right in that they deliberately omitted the fact that they'd only recently begun to inhabit the city, at least in the first seaon of the show

Athosians: Do you really call that an alliance? They more or less got shoved out of the city, they never really contacted them after they lived on the new planet. For me, an alliance produces benefits for both groups and leads to exchange of knowledge and information, did we see that with the Athiosans? Nope.

The Athosians chose to leave the city, and maintained their connections as they provided food in exchange for protection, and the ability to use the stargate in the first few years. They could have gone to another planet, but chose to stay with Atlantis. I'm not saying Atlantis was getting much (or giving much) out of this relationship, but were it not for Teyla, these people would've likely been somewhere else.

Kids-planet: again no alliance here, they so nicely gave them back THEIR ZPM and even suggested later to steal it from them.

Rodney took it without permission, and replaced it. He even fixed the system and prolonged its life. But agreed, there wasn't an alliance with planet kid-kill

Travelers: They just kept an open relationship and got in contact with Atlantis when they needed something (Altantis couldn't even contact them), not what I would call an alliance.

Kinda how like NZ (where I'm from) pretty much keeps to itself, but if it were invaded would likely have the inreasonable expectation that it's friend, the United States, would do something to help (with it's bigger firepower)

BAMSR: This was a temporary alliance.

The only one of its kind at that stage, and it yielded massive results, far greater than anything the Coalition had achieved by the end of the show

Yes, because the alliance was already established and we just hear from its existence in this episode:

KELORE: This is Shiana of the Tribes of Santhal ... (he looks at the older man) ... and Dimas of the Free Peoples of Riva. We speak on behalf of the Coalition.
KELORE: The Coalition grows in strength and influence every day.

And this is also an interesting little conversation:

WOOLSEY: We've been content to keep to ourselves up until now, but if it's a choice between getting pushed out of the game and taking a more active part, well that's no choice at all, is it?
WOOLSEY: On top of that, I had to commit Atlantis to a much larger day to day participation in the politics of the Pegasus galaxy.
WOOLSEY: Can't wait to explain that in my report!
SHEPPARD: Yeah. Well, what's the point of being out here if we're not gonna try to make a difference, right?

Atlantis seems not very willing to join with the other PG natives let alone building an alliance and Shepp only halfheartedly agrees to his own statement.

Err, if it was so powerful, how come we never heard about it until that episode? Atlantis has teams going through the gate to other planets every day - were the natives keeping the coalition under wraps.

Atlantis had been making alliances in some fashion for years - look at the Coup episode. The premise of Lorne's death was that they'd been there so many times (assisting them) that it could not have been the locals who killed them. As it turned out, it was the Genii, another coalition member.

Yes, Todd knows that as long as the Wraith need to feed on humans they will be enemies. He doesn't hide this fact but acknowledges it to Sam in BAMSR. And he DID call Shepp brother in CG, why would he do that if not to implicate that he trusts Shepp and doesn't want to betray him. I never figured out the sense behind the treatment of Todd in THE SEER, which was their first encounter after the events in CG. Why so distrustful, when Todd showed nothing but honor and even gave Shepp back his life, which was not part of the bargain.

Well, as for beneficial working relationship:

CG:
+ shepp escapes alive
+ gets back his years

+ Todd escapes alive

SEER
+ SGA gets warned
+ SGA gets the virus (small part missing)

-Todd looses his hive ship
-Todd is imprisoned

Todd's actions threatened to reveal the location of Atlantis, hence why there was heated debate in the control room between Carter and Woolsey about the right course of action

MC
+ McKay’s sister gets saved
+ have the programming of shutting down the earth made nanites

(+) Todd gets feed (but only because they needed him at exactly that moment and it is Atlantis fault that he is starving)

They could always have given him the retrovirus, he'd been able to chow down on meat and three veg at will after that.

BAMSR
+ SGA gets help for the programming
+ SGA defeats the replicators

+Todd gets his freedom (but only because they need the ships)
+ replicators destroyed
(+) Todd gets ZPMs (but not thanks to Atlantis)


SOW
+ SGA knows now about the cloning
+ SGA destroys the cloning facility with Todd’s help

+Todd escapes with SGA’s help (after they threaten him to kill)

KINDRED I
+SGA gets the location of one of Michael’s facilities

+ Todd gets the research on the Hoffan drug (but did he get all? We never see if SGA kept their part of the bargain)

QUEEN
+SGA gets control over the alliance with Teyla

+ Todd becomes head of the alliance
- Todd looses ships and soldiers

Todd never said that he wanted to take over the Alliance. It was obvious that this was a power play on his part - it wasn't as if Teyla was going to stick around to run the show.

FC/TLT
- Todd looses two ships thanks to SGA

Right after he took over the Deadalus. He also tried to ram it into the planet with everyone on board, which was only prevented with the help of one of Atlantis's friends, the Travellers.

INFECTION
+ Atlantis gets a hive ship
+ knowledge about the new retrovirus’s effect on Wraiths

- Todd looses his entire crew and ship

I hope they prove as nourishing as the farmers who grew them. Yummy, yummy, I've got a farmer in my tummy.

EATG
+SGA gets warned
+SGA gets two ZPMs

-Todd gets imprisoned and threatened to kill

He only gaave them the ZPM's when they twisted his arm, and because it was the only way to stop the other hive.

And sadly you did a bit the same with your second part when Atlantis launches the PJ to attack vulnerable parts of the hive ships. The Wraith have fought the Ancients for over 100 years, I'm sure they have developed some counteractions against cloaked PJ. And even if not, they KNOW Atlantis has cloaked PJ, they could simple have a swarm of protective Darts around their sensitive systems. Please, don't make the Wraith as dumb as TPTB made them. I hope, you give them a chance to show their ingenuity. I had hoped a bit you would let the Wraith make use of the Hoffan drug research Todd acquired or the PJ they got in CONDEMNED or at least put that experiment of PHANTOMS into good use because obviously the device worked well.

But they've know Atlantis has cloaked vessels for 10,000 years, yet never made any preventative moves during battle. Even the Asurans, who built their own cloaked vessels, cannot detect the cloaks. The wraith didn't even have shields, after all those years. I'd have thought that would've been their priority.

He didn't tell her that they would kill the queen but he probably knew that the primary would never accept the plan. And he didn't tell Atlantis because they would probably think it's too dangerous and maybe didn't believe him because they don't know anything of Wraith society (sadly never really explored). His plan was very risky for himself because if it failed his life would be at stake like Teyla's, that is not really betrayal. And he wouldn't be the head of the alliance but Teyla and Teyla uses this fact to threaten him later. And look what Teyla did, she betrays him a lot more by killing all those Wraith which are her subjects. Pretty stupid move considering they want an alliance with the Wraith, not very convincing if you kill them right in front of Todd. Probably that is why Todd was very reluctant afterward to agree to the retrovirus.

The retrovirus was never actually implemented. Todd handwaved it afterwards, saying they'd need time to accept him first. That's along the lines of what politicians say when they don't really want to do something.

No, he couldn't have come up with it because his original plan was to deploy the virus against the replicators but thanks to Atlantis some part was missing and that's probably why it didn't work. And it wasn't his plan to attack the planet of the replicators and use the hive ships to assist them that was Sheppard. So he really helped them and had no hidden agenda. After he knew the plan he saw the opportunity to act but it's not his fault if Atlantis didn't think of it and it would certainly be dumb to tell them "Oh guys, BTW did you think about taking some ZPMs?". And he pointed out in SoW that he wanted to use the cloning facility to wipe out the other Wraiths. Of course he could have lied but I got the impression he was sincere when he said that.

You seem to be taking him at his word a lot, or giving him the benefit of the doubt, yet not willing to do the same for Atlantis.

Excuse me but the reason why he was starving was Atlantis. I think it's only fair in his point of view to provide him with food because Atlantis KNEW EXACTLY what they got themselves into when they took Todd prisoner. That move still doesn't make any sense to me. They just could have taken him to another planet through the gate, question him and then release or kill him without risking to reveal the location of Atlantis or maneuvering themselves into the dilemma of how to feed a Wraith.
According to INSTINCT "It feeds three, four times a year, takes two or three people each time." Sorry, but I'm not going to buy that he simply hold out 9 months without feeding. Hope, you have a better explanation.

No, they couldn't take him to another planet. He already knew the location of Atlantis, that was how he found them.

[Choo1701]

*** JAZZ HANDS!!! ***

Sorry...its just theres a WWWWHHHHOOOOLLLEEEE lot of words going on here and, you know

...

...

carry on.

[JT-2]

I hope they prove as nourishing as the farmers who grew them. Yummy, yummy, I've got a farmer in my tummy.

I'm loving this series. Even things I wasn't a fan of on the show (Keller, Larrin) have been well written.

[Skie]

Actually, they are. The human race, as it stands today, is the next evolution of our (the Ancients) form. This is in the show, and is canon. In fact, it is the whole premise of the show, and how the people of Earth can operate the city via their ATA gene.

SOME of Atlantis have the ancient gene as have some PG natives. And that is because some Ancients mixed with the local population but neither are real descendants. Apparently the Ancients "died out" because their culture was lost but as Atlantis stayed in PG, I think it's legal to assume that it belongs to the PG natives.

The Athosians chose to leave the city, and maintained their connections as they provided food in exchange for protection, and the ability to use the stargate in the first few years. They could have gone to another planet, but chose to stay with Atlantis. I'm not saying Atlantis was getting much (or giving much) out of this relationship, but were it not for Teyla, these people would've likely been somewhere else.

They did not really chose to leave the city, they were accused of collaborating with the Wraiths in SUSPICION and that's why they left. If this incident wouldn't have happened, they would still be on Atlantis. But I agree that it could have been an alliance but TPTB choose to completely forget about the Athosians and therefore for me it doesn't feel like one.

The only one of its kind at that stage, and it yielded massive results, far greater than anything the Coalition had achieved by the end of the show.

Yes but again, only temporary. The Coalition doesn't have to yield great results in the beginning, the important thing is that they tried to unite all the PG races under one banner, something that Atlantis never tried to do. That's something I don't understand because obviously Atlantis wanted to help so why not a coordination of the resources, attack forces, strategies, etc.

Err, if it was so powerful, how come we never heard about it until that episode? Atlantis has teams going through the gate to other planets every day - were the natives keeping the coalition under wraps.

Ask TPTB.

Atlantis had been making alliances in some fashion for years - look at the Coup episode. The premise of Lorne's death was that they'd been there so many times (assisting them) that it could not have been the locals who killed them. As it turned out, it was the Genii, another coalition member.

But we never see the results of those "alliances". TPTB only made them up, when it suited their purpose. If it's an alliance, I want to see some exchanges, the team mentioning them before and not only in the episode they need them.

Todd's actions threatened to reveal the location of Atlantis, hence why there was heated debate in the control room between Carter and Woolsey about the right course of action.

Err, hello, Atlantis got themselves into it. If they hadn't taken Todd as prisoner in the first place, they wouldn't have found themselves in this situation. I'm sure you would pad Shepp's shoulder if he had taken precautionary measure like a tracking device before he went of to a meeting with Wraiths.
Right course of action?

SHEPPARD:How ‘bout this: we play along. We wait for them to transmit the programme to Rodney's computer, then blow ‘em out of the sky.
CARTER: Betray them before they have a chance to betray us.
DEX: They're Wraith. Anyone gonna lose any sleep over this?
(John shrugs.)

and later after they transmitted the virus

SHEPPARD: I can go down to the Chair Room and finish this off right now.
CARTER: Can't risk it, John.

Yep, really the good guys here.
Mind you, I would understand their actions more, if they dealt with a totally unknown Wraith BUT Shepp has worked with Todd and Todd kept is part of the bargain in CG, he even gave more than necessary by restoring Shepp's years.

They could always have given him the retrovirus, he'd been able to chow down on meat and three veg at will after that.

I'm going to quote Micheal here from MISBEGOTTEN:
MICHAEL: What I am is not a disease you can cure.
MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death? And if I do remember and revert back to my true nature, what will happen then?

And he got the answer right at the end of the episode, a nuke.

Todd wanted to work together with him, not being changed into another being. Would you want that? Nice choice you give him, especially since this situation would have been totally avoidable.

Todd never said that he wanted to take over the Alliance. It was obvious that this was a power play on his part - it wasn't as if Teyla was going to stick around to run the show.

Ok, that's true. But I disagree with Teyla not being able to control the alliance, otherwise what would be the point of her threat and why would Todd be so upset about it and flexing his hand. And he did agree to use the retrovirus in the end.

Right after he took over the Deadalus. He also tried to ram it into the planet with everyone on board, which was only prevented with the help of one of Atlantis's friends, the Travellers.

Well, imagine yourself in this situation. You just lost two of your ships, all you have is Shepp telling you that it wasn't them (which is not even true since Jack and McKay activated the device, and Shepp knew they got kidnapped, so just add two and two together). So, would you believe Shep after the incidents in THE SEER, MC, SoW and the KINDRED? If the humans had lost two ships and having the threat of loosing even more ships, most viewers would applaud that they took over the hive ship and try to ram the planet. And would they try to negotiate with the Wraiths, I don't think so, they probably would just say that they can't trust Wraiths.

I hope they prove as nourishing as the farmers who grew them.

And? That's like saying to a vegetarian eating corn, "hope you enjoy it as much as the cows I eat". It's natural for the Wraiths to feed on humans, just how it is.

He only gaave them the ZPM's when they twisted his arm, and because it was the only way to stop the other hive.

Well, sorry, he had no obligations to give them the ZPMs. It's not really his problem when the super hive attacks Earth, is it? Because after INFECTION I would have surely seen the alliance as dissolved.

But they've know Atlantis has cloaked vessels for 10,000 years, yet never made any preventative moves during battle. Even the Asurans, who built their own cloaked vessels, cannot detect the cloaks. The wraith didn't even have shields, after all those years. I'd have thought that would've been their priority.

Again, ask TPTB what they were thinking. IMO, it doesn't make sense how they could defeat the Ancients, when they were unable to improve their technology. And don't get me started on the cloning issue. The American natives never defeated the Spaniards even with their overwhelming numbers.

The retrovirus was never actually implemented. Todd handwaved it afterwards, saying they'd need time to accept him first. That's along the lines of what politicians say when they don't really want to do something.

Yes it was, see INFECTION.

You seem to be taking him at his word a lot, or giving him the benefit of the doubt, yet not willing to do the same for Atlantis.

Nope, I'm taking Atlantis by its word, see the talking about betrayals above. We have seen in CG that Todd honors an agreement.

No, they couldn't take him to another planet. He already knew the location of Atlantis, that was how he found them.

Wrong, he didn't know the location of Atlantis because he didn't find them. He let the natives of one planet deliver a message where to meet. His hive found them because he had implanted himself a tracking device as precautionary measure, and as we saw, it was the right thing to do.