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Thread: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

  1. #21
    Major Sealurk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Okay, just watched it again.

    So, unless I'm hearing it wrong, the Doctor definitely knows a lot more than he's saying with regards to the situation in this episode, even more than usual. The Doctor talks about a crossroads, about making the right decision, and about the Flesh being just the early stages of the technology. So presumably this is another point in history that's in flux and can have a massive impact on the future, and he knows how it originally turned out and decides to undo it.

    They're mining acid and shipping it to the mainland. Why? Is this just a MacGuffin and convenient obstacle, or is it going to end up being very important to the plot?

    I'm liking Amy less and less.

    I wonder if mention of Rory remembering his time as living plastic will come up in the next part, since it could well be relevant to the Ganger's situation.

    Did the Doctor deliberately create his duplicate, perhaps to reach out to the Gangers and the humans, show them they can co-operate? It only appears after he ducks into the chapel with the Flesh and uses his sonic on it for quite some time, then simply leaves. Or is it a byproduct of him trying to do something else with the Flesh?

    So, Cleaves' crew aren't military, but contractors for the military - so what is the military's interest in the Flesh, or the acid? An ability to field armies where combat losses aren't nearly as bad because the original operator remains, or something even more sinister? The hardwiring of the minds and personalities of the operators by the electrical discharge (especially with Buzzer's mention of the Isle of Sheppey incident) - is that entirely accidental?

    Liking the episode a bit more now, but it still feels a little too drawn out.
    Last edited by Sealurk; May 22nd, 2011 at 01:46 PM.
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  2. #22
    Second Lieutenant sparklegem's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    General Review

    I enjoyed this episode, and enjoyed it even more the 2nd time around because there is so much stuff to analyze. Loved how Rory was influenced by his previous experience as an Auton. I love the Doctor in arbiter mode. At the same time, this is a story element that I am actually particularly fond of, but I like to be challenged by it, and I really wasn't here. When you do a very common scifi idea like this, you typically need to add something to it, some original character moments, to make it a particularly engaging episode, and I do feel Rebel Flesh ended up being a tad too formulaic. For a two-parter, I didn't feel like there was that much going on in this half in terms of fleshing out (no pun intended) characters, etc.

    The majority of the characters didn't have much personality. And it seems like the story was checking off boxes: person we think is real is actually a copy--check; the copy bemoans their stolen life--check; the copy tries to convince the original that they are just as much themselves--check; etc.

    Not to mention that this seemed very similar to last season's two parter (though admittedly, The Hungry Earth put more focus on exploring our moral standing as human beings and how our choices represent us, which is more than I can say for this episode) : two parties are in contention with each other, the Doctor tries to sit them down and have everybody work out a compromise, it goes pretty well until some moron kills one of the other party, and then they declare war.

    As for the ganger!Doctor, I am SO TORN. On the one hand, I LOVE it when a situation screws with my favorite characters on an existential/body horror-ish level (things like Human Nature and Midnight were pure crack for me). On the other hand, I HATE two-copies-of-the-same-character storylines because 9 times out of 10 I find the endings contrived and unsatisfying. It is so damn predictable when all of a sudden the clones of the heroes get conveniently killed 1/2 an hour later even though their real counterparts have been worming their way out of danger for 4 seasons, or some contrived reason is given for them never being able to visit their 'old lives'. *fumes* So, given the lack of originality in this episode, I don't have high hopes for how this is going to pan out, even though I am going to enjoy the ride immensely.

    I also loved how, even though the Doctor is a peace-maker and not speciesist in principle, he was unnerved on a personal level by his own ganger.

    ---------------------------------------

    Things to Analyze, Discuss

    Okay, if you skipped my review above, that's cool, but here I'd like to talk about some things that merit further discussion and analysis, because this whole episode is really about all these secrets that the Doctor is keeping, which are driving me crazy.

    1)
    So, unless I'm hearing it wrong, the Doctor definitely knows a lot more than he's saying with regards to the situation in this episode, even more than usual.
    Oh, absolutely. This episode drove me insane all of yesterday. What is he hiding?!?!

    2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?

    3) When Amy, the Doctor, and father-guy go into the bathroom looking for Rory, Amy and father-guy confront the Doctor about knowing something about the Flesh. When the Doctor hesitates, spinning his wheels on what to say or deciding what he can hold back--the Doctor's gaze is specifically locked with Amy's, gazing at her with concerned intensity, even though father-guy is in the room too. Is the Flesh and what the Doctor is hiding with respect to the Flesh connected specifically to Amy? Or is the Doctor's fixated behavior toward her just because he's more concerned about being accountable to Amy and being questioned by her than by the other guy? I think it is significant enough a moment that it is the former.


    4)
    Did the Doctor deliberately create his duplicate, perhaps to reach out to the Gangers? It only appears after he ducks into the chapel with the Flesh and uses his sonic on it for quite some time, then simply leaves. Or is it a byproduct of him trying to do something else with the Flesh?
    When the Doctor is making his way back to the TARDIS, he stops into the Flesh making room for a second, sonics the Flesh pool for a second, leaves, and then the lips appear saying "Trust Me". He wasn't just passing through the room on his way to the TARDIS, though, because he leaves the same way he enters the room. So either he deliberately took a detour to poke at the Flesh again (did he deliberately create his ganger, and if so, why is he unnerved by it later ?), or he got lost and took the opportunity to reexamine the Flesh while he was there.

  3. #23
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    fyi, he didn't create granger doctor.

    While he's asking who it is, he's repeatedly saying things equivalent to "this is about to get a whole lot worse", and his pre-cog of a bad situation can easily be explained by him sensing another Time Lord (himself).

  4. #24
    Second Lieutenant sparklegem's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by jameshawking View Post
    fyi, he didn't create granger doctor.

    While he's asking who it is, he's repeatedly saying things equivalent to "this is about to get a whole lot worse", and his pre-cog of a bad situation can easily be explained by him sensing another Time Lord (himself).
    It's not even pre-cog really--in that scene the Doctor is reacting to ganger!Doctor vocalizing from the shadows: "Why? Why?"

  5. #25
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Ah, i must've missed that bit then.

  6. #26
    Second Lieutenant Professor_S's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Hm. I thought this was a decent episode. It's a pretty standard sci-fi trope - doppelgangers, that is - and plot wise, as has been said already, it didn't feel like there was anything extraordinary here. It's pretty standard fare. The characters were, as sparklegem said, rather two-dimensional; they were the standard personas one tends to get with a doppelganger story.

    That being said, Jennifer was interesting to me. Her behaviour was slightly odd from the start (when she was the only one in the room that *wasn't* a ganger) - she seemed uncomfortable with the whole process, even as we watched her go through the standard procedure for 'transferring' (though we learn that's not really what it is) her consciousness. I get the feeling that there's more to her story than we know right now. I also enjoyed the scene between Jennifer and Rory in what looked to be either her room or an exercise room; between the acting (on both actors' parts) and the music (did anyone else notice the score this ep? Really good!) it was a pretty captivating scene (albeit an expected one).

    I think it's brilliant that Rory is acting the way that he is - it seems to be driven by his own experiences as being a human that's other-than-human. I wasn't impressed with his character when he was first introduced, but as he becomes more complex, I find myself more interested in his story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo_Galilee View Post
    What the heck is it with the snow globe?
    Seemed to me that was how he was monitoring the sun-tsunami, but I could be wrong about that...

    Quote Originally Posted by sparklegem View Post
    <snip>

    2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?
    Yes!! I caught that too. I don't remember them coming into contact with the Flesh before that, though... (except, I guess Rory did.) hmm....

    3) When Amy, the Doctor, and father-guy go into the bathroom looking for Rory, Amy and father-guy confront the Doctor about knowing something about the Flesh. When the Doctor hesitates, spinning his wheels on what to say or deciding what he can hold back--the Doctor's gaze is specifically locked with Amy's, gazing at her with concerned intensity, even though father-guy is in the room too. Is the Flesh and what the Doctor is hiding with respect to the Flesh connected specifically to Amy? Or is the Doctor's fixated behavior toward her just because he's more concerned about being accountable to Amy and being questioned by her than by the other guy? I think it is significant enough a moment that it is the former.
    <snip>
    Oh good - I got this impression too. I noticed the look, and thought it was significant; but the moment was so fleeting, so when it never came up again, I figured I must've just read too much into the Doctor's expression. I'm so glad someone else saw this too! I really get the feeling that it's related to Amy somehow... I couldn't even begin to speculate on how, though...
    "We still commit murder because of greed and spite and jealousy, and we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything we've done. [...] Its not enough to survive... One has to be worthy of survival."
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  7. #27
    Second Lieutenant rien's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    What happened to the other gangers?

    After the solar storm when the cast divides into two groups, the 'real' people and the gangers, there is only one ganger for each 'real' person but earlier when the Doctor, Amy and Rory first arrived there were a couple of the 'real' people that had more than one ganger active. Hence why they get surrounded but multiple versions of the same people that are also strapped into the control machines.

    Jennifer only has the one ganger and the guy that fell into the acid in the opening scene only had one ganger who is now dead but didnt the rest have two each? Where did they go? Anyone think its possible that the leader lady who shot that ganger and started the conflict will turn out to also be a ganger?
    Quietly, so as not to alarm anyone, she began to go insane

  8. #28
    Lieutenant Colonel Teddybrown's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by sparklegem View Post
    2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?
    I noticed that too, i dont think its a continuity error, as Doctor Who always has a reason for everything! lol

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  9. #29
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by Galileo_Galilee View Post
    What the heck is it with the snow globe?
    I'm wondering whether it's going to be like Army of Ghosts/Doomsday where we get though almost the whole two parter before he says "And why is no-one going to ask me why I'm wearing 3D glasses?" and it turns out to be significant for the whole plot.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Fuzz View Post
    I was looking for the Eye-Patch Lady again and when she did appear, I thought, "What? That's it?"
    Yeah, I was expecting a little bit more. Does this mean the eye patch lady is separate and apart from The Silence?
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  11. #31
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    I thought the episode was fun but only "okay". Nice ending, two Doctors is always exciting!

    I'm a little puzzled in some ways by Rory's actions in the episode. Hope this doesn't create some friction between himself and Amy later on.

  12. #32
    First Lieutenant Nth Chevron's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Well you can see it in his eyes as a nurse that he cares about lost people like that, people in pain be it psychological or physical.

    Amy has the same kind of obsession with the Doctor that in a way goes above and beyond Rivers.

    N.C

  13. #33
    Lieutenant Colonel Teddybrown's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/ne..._Almost_People

    Lol, funny clip from The Almost People

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  14. #34
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nth Chevron View Post
    Well you can see it in his eyes as a nurse that he cares about lost people like that, people in pain be it psychological or physical.

    Amy has the same kind of obsession with the Doctor that in a way goes above and beyond Rivers.

    N.C
    Well yes I like Rory mainly because of his kindness and caring. But he has never gone out of his way to help somebody before like the way he did in this episode.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by Replicator Todd View Post
    Well yes I like Rory mainly because of his kindness and caring. But he has never gone out of his way to help somebody before like the way he did in this episode.
    You mean like him essentially getting fired in his first episode because of what he believed to be his patients?

  16. #36
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Decent episode- about the same as the first episode this season. So far with the 2 parters, the first episode has been dull- lets hope the second is as good as episode 2 was.

  17. #37
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by jameshawking View Post
    You mean like him essentially getting fired in his first episode because of what he believed to be his patients?
    Oh. Completely forgot about that...

  18. #38
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Ooo, apparently The Almost People will end with a game changing ending, and there will be some seismic scenes which changes everything for the Doctor...

    Minor spoilers for Episode 7 in the article
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/ne...etin_110525_02

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Heh, I can't be the only one who thinks the BBC spoiling things before they air are a TAD hypocritical given how much Moffat despised the fans spoiling things. I could have lived without knowing there'd be a cliffhanger this week, it risks the actual Ganger story losing it's own individual momentum since most people may tune in JUST for the cliffhanger

  20. #40
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    Default Re: The Rebel Flesh (3205)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post
    Heh, I can't be the only one who thinks the BBC spoiling things before they air are a TAD hypocritical given how much Moffat despised the fans spoiling things. I could have lived without knowing there'd be a cliffhanger this week, it risks the actual Ganger story losing it's own individual momentum since most people may tune in JUST for the cliffhanger
    I hear what you're saying--I commented in another thread about how how I'm rather angry about how spoilery the BBC description of episode 7 is. On the other hand, presumably the head-honchos have some control over what BBC releases, vs. fans who stalk filming locations and post unwarranted, moderated spoilers from any and all episodes.

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