Game of Thrones Books (Spoilers for everything)

[Cold Fuzz]

I just finished A Dance with Dragons earlier tonight. I have a headache now.

Goodness so much happened in this book. I liked it a whole lot better than A Feast for Crows, thats for sure. The pacing in Feast got tedious for me, to be honest. Without Tyrion, Dany, and Jon at the forefront, that book took me forever to finish. This one though, I enjoyed a lot.

Spoiler:

Daenerys: This is the greatest setback she's faced since losing Drogo back in book 1. Meereen was a total cluster****, as I suspected it would be. But given how Varys is making out Aegon to be an apparently good ruler, Dany's role is clear. She's not a ruler. At least, not yet anyway. That's Aegon's turf. She's shown inherent skills at fighting, conquering, and the ways of war. This has been shown again and again throughout the books with the victories she's amassed against adversaries like the Qartheen warlocks, outwitting the Yunkish slavers at Astapor, and even at the very beginning of her story, standing up against Viserys and executing Mirri Maz Duur. If she musters what's left of the people loyal to her, including the Ghiscari loyal to her at Meereen, she'll give Aegon some heavy reinforcements when he take's Storm's End. I think the Unsullied and all of her troops would daunt even the fiercest knights in Westeros.

But to do all of this, she needs to somehow get back to Meereen from Drogon's lair. With Jhaqo's khalasar at the very end, it's going to be a difficult journey back. I wish there were a map of the Dothraki Sea and the surrounding lands so we could get an idea of where everything is. The map of Slavery's Bay is nice but I was hoping for something more comprehensive showing Essos.

I thought hallucinations/epiphanies Dany had at the very end were incredibly compelling. I can empathize with what happened to her actually since I nearly died in the Utah desert over 4 years ago due to dehydration and heatstroke. GRRM got that part down very well.

Jon: He ain't dead. I refuse to believe he's dead. Having said that, I think the next thing up North is the Wall. It's coming down. No doubt about it in my mind now. With Jon and his plan to ally the Night's Watch with the Wildings against the Others out of the way, some fool is going to blow the Horn of Winter and everybody's pretty much going to be screwed. But I think that's going to be necessary. The Others approach from the Wall with the North in disarray while Aegon and Dany approach from the South. Inevitably ice and fire are going to meet up... and have an interesting party.

My favorite moment: This will seem vindictive to some but Cersei being utterly humiliated and broken in public was by far the most satisfying thing for me to read in the past 5 books. With so many people suffering due to her machinations, not the least of which would be Sansa and the Starks, I felt no pity for her whatsoever and honestly I'd probably be one of the people throwing food at her given what she's said and done.

Tragic moment: Quentyn. *shakes head and sighs* Dude, you are NOT the blood of the dragon. The only reason Dany ever got away with whipping Viserion or Rhaegal was because the dragon brood thought of Dany as their mother in an instinctual way. They'd never tolerate anybody but her doing that. But... *sigh*. Dany needs that dragon horn or she'll never keep the brood in line.

Wishlist: Theon (I refuse to call him Reek) and/or some of the Starks flaying Ramsay Bolton and the rest of his damned house.

Predictions: I picture Arya growing in strength and beginning to exhibit supernatural abilities superior to her siblings. Killing the insurance dude was slick, but I think she's destined to pull off much bigger hits in the future. As for the whole Azor Ahai prophecy, I think that it refers to not just Aegon, but applies Dany too and perhaps their entire family. Given how their sigil is a 3-headed dragon, I wouldn't be surprised if there's another Targaryen floating around out there somewhere.

[Shylodog]

Spoiler:

Predictions: I picture Arya growing in strength and beginning to exhibit supernatural abilities superior to her siblings. Killing the insurance dude was slick, but I think she's destined to pull off much bigger hits in the future. As for the whole Azor Ahai prophecy, I think that it refers to not just Aegon, but applies Dany too and perhaps their entire family. Given how their sigil is a 3-headed dragon, I wouldn't be surprised if there's another Targaryen floating around out there somewhere.

Spoiler:

At a guess, I'm going to say Tyrion as another Targaryen. Tyrion or Jon, but I'm less inclined to believe it's Jon. Unless Jon's mother was actually a Targaryen and we haven't been told yet. Even King Robert hadn't a clue who Jon's mother was. But Tyrion has been explained to exhibit a certain Targaryen trait: he has one violet eye. It would also explain why his father loathed him so much. Tywin would have been far too proud to accuse his own wife of adultry, and who's to say he didn't actually kill her when the child was born?

Just my educated guesses at this point.

[Cold Fuzz]

Spoiler:

At a guess, I'm going to say Tyrion as another Targaryen. Tyrion or Jon, but I'm less inclined to believe it's Jon. Unless Jon's mother was actually a Targaryen and we haven't been told yet. Even King Robert hadn't a clue who Jon's mother was. But Tyrion has been explained to exhibit a certain Targaryen trait: he has one violet eye. It would also explain why his father loathed him so much. Tywin would have been far too proud to accuse his own wife of adultry, and who's to say he didn't actually kill her when the child was born?

Just my educated guesses at this point.

Spoiler:

I would say that Tyrion has more chance of being a Targaryen (or at least partially if your theory is correct) than Jon. Jon is definitely not a dragon: He has no immunity to fire and I don't remember anything describing any Targaryen traits.

[VampyreWraith]

Regarding Tyrion, Jon, and Arya, along with some stuff from ADwD and some speculation.

Spoiler:

Aerys did have a thing for Tyrion's mother so it is possible that he might have gotten her pregnant(by rape or consent).

I still think that Jon might by Lyanna's child by Rhaegar. I've thought that pretty much since I read the part in the first book when Ned remamber(or dreams about?) finding his sister dying. There were three(?) Kingsguards outside the tower, and Lyanna made Ned promise her something. Ned claiming her child(by Rhaegar) as his bastard(by some random woman) would have kept him safe from Robert. Either way Jon is a Stark and of the north, and thats just as good(or better) than being a dragon.(imo)

As of now I don't quite believe that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryan. Just because he's got the right coloring, and Vary's says he's Aegon, doesn't sell me on him being the real Aegon yet.

I love Arya, and I love her training with the Faceless Men. For some reason I can see her meeting up with Dany while she(Dany) is on her way to Westeros. Either as an assassin on her way to give Dany the gift, or as herself trying to get back to her remaining family after leaving the Faceless Men. I guess I just want her to run into Dany(or someone with at dragon) so she can try to warg into a dragon. I wonder if she can do that, or maybe Jon can(if he's not dead, and I really don't believe he is)

[Shylodog]

Spoiler:

...I wonder if she can do that, or maybe Jon can(if he's not dead, and I really don't believe he is)

Spoiler:

This is my thought. We know that Targaryan's can be burned (Viserys), but none can warg so far as we know. We know Jon can warg, so that could be important in controlling the dragons. But only if he's of the blood.

[Cold Fuzz]

Regarding Tyrion, Jon, and Arya, along with some stuff from ADwD and some speculation.

Spoiler:

Aerys did have a thing for Tyrion's mother so it is possible that he might have gotten her pregnant(by rape or consent).

I still think that Jon might by Lyanna's child by Rhaegar. I've thought that pretty much since I read the part in the first book when Ned remamber(or dreams about?) finding his sister dying. There were three(?) Kingsguards outside the tower, and Lyanna made Ned promise her something. Ned claiming her child(by Rhaegar) as his bastard(by some random woman) would have kept him safe from Robert. Either way Jon is a Stark and of the north, and thats just as good(or better) than being a dragon.(imo)

As of now I don't quite believe that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryan. Just because he's got the right coloring, and Vary's says he's Aegon, doesn't sell me on him being the real Aegon yet.

I love Arya, and I love her training with the Faceless Men. For some reason I can see her meeting up with Dany while she(Dany) is on her way to Westeros. Either as an assassin on her way to give Dany the gift, or as herself trying to get back to her remaining family after leaving the Faceless Men. I guess I just want her to run into Dany(or someone with at dragon) so she can try to warg into a dragon. I wonder if she can do that, or maybe Jon can(if he's not dead, and I really don't believe he is)

Spoiler:

If Arya joins up with Dany, which is something I've wanted for a long time, I'm also hoping that Arya will pull off a few hits for Dany while in Essos. I think Arya's supernatural abilities will definitely get Dany's attention. Ser Barristan may be the Queen's Hand but Arya could be the Queen's... dagger. When Arya reaches her full potential with the Faceless Men, she could probably cripple the Sons of the Harpy and similar organizations with a few well-placed kills. Being the personal assassin of the Targaryens would definitely curry a lot of favor for the Starks. I'm picturing a Stark/Targaryen alliance (with Jon in the picture too) in the future.

As for whether or not Young Griff is the real deal, it certainly wouldn't be the first time GRRM has used misdirection on us. However, I don't think Varys would lie at Kevan Lannister's final moments. I think the three-headed dragon applies to the Azor Ahai prophecy. Who the 3rd Targaryen is, I'm definitely itching to find out.

Spoiler:

This is my thought. We know that Targaryan's can be burned (Viserys), but none can warg so far as we know. We know Jon can warg, so that could be important in controlling the dragons. But only if he's of the blood.

Spoiler:

The Targaryens specialized in pyromancy and dragon sorcery. I think the warg abilities with the Stark children (including Jon) will catch the Targaryens' attention sooner or later. The question is, is Aegon III (Young Griff) immune to fire? I suppose that is the final definitive test on whether or not he is truly blood of the dragon.

[VampyreWraith]

Spoiler:

This is my thought. We know that Targaryan's can be burned (Viserys), but none can warg so far as we know. We know Jon can warg, so that could be important in controlling the dragons. But only if he's of the blood.

Spoiler:

Or he has some magical horn or something that can control dragons; I think Jon is a Targaryan though. I do wonder if Targaryans really are the only ones who can control dragons, or if its just easier for some of them since they can't get burned to a crisp during the training process.

Spoiler:

If Arya joins up with Dany, which is something I've wanted for a long time, I'm also hoping that Arya will pull off a few hits for Dany while in Essos. I think Arya's supernatural abilities will definitely get Dany's attention. Ser Barristan may be the Queen's Hand but Arya could be the Queen's... dagger. When Arya reaches her full potential with the Faceless Men, she could probably cripple the Sons of the Harpy and similar organizations with a few well-placed kills. Being the personal assassin of the Targaryens would definitely curry a lot of favor for the Starks. I'm picturing a Stark/Targaryen alliance (with Jon in the picture too) in the future.

As for whether or not Young Griff is the real deal, it certainly wouldn't be the first time GRRM has used misdirection on us. However, I don't think Varys would lie at Kevan Lannister's final moments. I think the three-headed dragon applies to the Azor Ahai prophecy. Who the 3rd Targaryen is, I'm definitely itching to find out.

Spoiler:

Personally, I wouldn't want Arya and Dany to become friends or work together towards a goal, until they are in Westeros(or at least on the way there). I can picture Arya having motives other than friendship, when she might try to "befriend" Dany at first, but then later(once in Westeros), they become friends and meet up with Jon. I can picture Tyrion coming over with Dany and Arya.

Varys probably wouldn't lie during Kevan's final moments, if he knew it was just the two of them(with no one else in hearing distance), but there are others around at the time; the childeren who later come in with daggers(when Varys whistled for them) to finish Kevan off. Even if they are all completely loyal to Varys(and not anyone else's little bird), he might want/need them to believe that the a long-thought dead Targaryan Prince, who has been trained to rule since childhood, and knows to put the needs of people ahead of his own, is on his way back to Westeros to claim his rightful place.

[g.o.d]

a possible cover for re-edition of the third book in the Czech Republic

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[magictrick]

Now that I've finished A Dance with Dragons, I was finally able to open up this thread again. Some interesting theories from everyone here. I just hope it doesn't take 5+ years until we see the next novel.

As for the book, I liked that it began the process of tying together a lot of different story lines. Everyone in the book started so far apart but as it progressed certain characters are coming closer and closer together.

Spoiler:

I found it interesting that GRRM chose to use a lot more POV characters this time around. Although some where only there for one chapter and not more, it was a welcome change because it allowed us to see what events are taking place pretty much everywhere.

I thought the Prince of Dorne story line was a bit rushed. I think he could have expanded on him and his story a bit more. It seemed like we got 1 or 2 chapters from him and then he died. I also thought his idea to conquer the dragons was extremely foolish.

The outcome with Jon I saw coming a mile away. I can't believe he didn't notice how badly he was antagonizing everyone around him with what he was doing. His ideas were good but he should have first realized what was going on around him. I don't want to say he had it coming, because I like the character. I'm sure he is still alive though, too much rests on his character right now for him to be killed off. I realize no character is safe in these novels, but his character has been developed for so long, I find it hard to believe GRRM would kill him off in that fashion.

I was also hoping to see more of Brienne and Jaime. What happened to Brienne? Last time I believe she was about to be killed by Catelyn.

[fumblesmcstupid]

I'm trying to read Clash of Kings. Trying. I think I might wait for the last book to come out.

oops I just asked my brother when the books will be out.

He laughed at me.

*sigh*

[Morbo]

all the books are hard to read. so much detail. i mean, just about clothes alone. jesus.

i've read the first 2 books. took a break to read something that doesn't make me go crazy trying to remember everything and the thousands of characters.

[Skydiver]

I just accept that you can't remember. ALso yeah, some characters just vanish and only time will tell if they come back. Or, like Brienne, if we ever find out if Cat killed her or if she's still out there.

I'm wondering with Jon if he turns into a wight or something, or somehow finds his uncle and they go about fixing and doing things without the burdens of mortality and responsibilities. The missing uncle has been too important for too long to just be ignored.

I think GRRM has woven such a complex tale that it's simply hard to settle it all and write it all without getting lost.

[Morbo]

yeah i can only imagine the pegboard of character trees and timelines. must be as big as the side of a building.

[magictrick]

I just accept that you can't remember. ALso yeah, some characters just vanish and only time will tell if they come back. Or, like Brienne, if we ever find out if Cat killed her or if she's still out there.

This is answered in ADWD

Spoiler:

In Jaime's last POV she meets up with him and his crew and tells him she has something important to show him. Thus it looks like Cat spared her life.

[Cold Fuzz]

I just accept that you can't remember. ALso yeah, some characters just vanish and only time will tell if they come back. Or, like Brienne, if we ever find out if Cat killed her or if she's still out there.

I'm wondering with Jon if he turns into a wight or something, or somehow finds his uncle and they go about fixing and doing things without the burdens of mortality and responsibilities. The missing uncle has been too important for too long to just be ignored.

I think GRRM has woven such a complex tale that it's simply hard to settle it all and write it all without getting lost.

I think Coldhands is Uncle Benjen. He was running around riding an elk and I don't remember him taking off his hood so I'm pretty sure that Bran and company never actually saw his face. But that gathering with the greenseer in that forest area with that whole thing about the Old Gods? Really bizarre material there.

With Jon, I'm wondering is he'll somehow warg and permanently inhabit Ghost or another animal. It's possible that he could be revived somehow. He did have that vision of himself wielding a flaming sword a la Azor Aha. I think that was in Storm of Swords but I'm not sure at the moment as it's all starting to blur together. I don't think he's out of the picture just yet.

[Skydiver]

I don't think Jon is gone forever as well. ANd I agree, I do think Benjen is 'alive' just not in the normal way.
Its entirely possible that they need people to be intermediaries between the north and south of the wall, and both of them are destined to be ' halflings' for lack of a better term.

I do, if the series on HBO survives long enough to make it to the end of the books (and if George gets them written before they produce what does exist) see HBO to start rearranging things a bit. Why cast an actor for one single scene all season, like Brienne that is in one chapter....so some stories may be told differently.

I think I can also see Crows and Dragons (4 & 5) being squashed into one season because so much happens concurrently.....or it'll span over 2 seasons but be told chronologically rather than the way it is in the books.

[Horseslayer]

I just finished dance with dragons. Jon's last chapter in the book pissed me off. I mean WTH! Sometimes I want grab hold of g Martin and shake and scream at him. He better make up for it in the 6th book or he will lose a fan.

[g.o.d]

I just finished dance with dragons. Jon's last chapter in the book pissed me off. I mean WTH! Sometimes I want grab hold of g Martin and shake and scream at him. He better make up for it in the 6th book or he will lose a fan.

I don't think Jon's really dead. If he's really son of prince Rhaegar and Lyanna, I bet he's the new Azor Ahai (fire and ice in his veins).

Dragon has a three heads, it's Dany, Aegon and I believe the last one is Jon. So I don't think Martin is done with him. He'll bring him back somehow.

[Skydiver]

I tend to agree with your idea of Jon's lineage....Ned claimed him as his bastard to protect him and hide his identity.

I think by the end the three of them will unite the 3 major kingdoms, the north, overseas and Westeros. Could even extrapolate the whole 'holy trinity' thing....father(in this case mother), Son(of the dragon), holy spirit (jon being 'reborn or undead'

[ouldsayer]

Spoiler:

I know after The King Robert died, Joffrey is the king. I know in the third book he dies, and then what happen? What are the next kings in the novel? Until the end of the fifth book.
Thanks.