Future of the Tok'ra

[escyos]

Now that the galaxy is free of the Goa'uld and the Ori whats to become of the Tok'ra.

We know that they have a city on the surface but what now?
- They can create a working civilization now, build new technologies, create art and music and anything they want.

The only problem is zero population growth. Cloning may be a possibility but they may feel that it is a little impersonal. I see the only possibility as them create Harcesis children but this may also be bad as the child would grow up with the memories of atrocities that the Goa'uld however they may also choose to have children with ordinary humans or maybe find a way to remove or block the Goa'uld memories.

[LtKatia]

Now that the galaxy is free of the Goa'uld and the Ori whats to become of the Tok'ra.

We know that they have a city on the surface but what now?
- They can create a working civilization now, build new technologies, create art and music and anything they want.

The only problem is zero population growth. Cloning may be a possibility but they may feel that it is a little impersonal. I see the only possibility as them create Harcesis children but this may also be bad as the child would grow up with the memories of atrocities that the Goa'uld however they may also choose to have children with ordinary humans or maybe find a way to remove or block the Goa'uld memories.

The best would be if they could figure out how to make someone a queen - perhaps clone a queen and stick the memories of a Tok'ra in her. There should be something useful in the stuff the Asgard left the Tau'ri - perhaps the Tok'ra scientists can do something with that.

That is also good because if they get a queen, they do not need to clone any others and get the problem the Asgard got. She can just spawn more Tok'ra (including other queens). Perhaps they saved a cell-sample from Egeria and can clone her? That would be great!

And I don't think it would be a problem that the kids have the Tok'ra genetic memories, if they chose to have harcesis children. The Tok'ra symbiotes already have this memories and it is not making them evil, because of the changes Egeria did. They could perhaps even get hosts that way now, when there are no danger from the Goa'uld.

[gkyun]

The best would be if they could figure out how to make someone a queen - perhaps clone a queen and stick the memories of a Tok'ra in her. There should be something useful in the stuff the Asgard left the Tau'ri - perhaps the Tok'ra scientists can do something with that.

That is also good because if they get a queen, they do not need to clone any others and get the problem the Asgard got. She can just spawn more Tok'ra (including other queens). Perhaps they saved a cell-sample from Egeria and can clone her? That would be great!

And I don't think it would be a problem that the kids have the Tok'ra genetic memories, if they chose to have harcesis children. The Tok'ra symbiotes already have this memories and it is not making them evil, because of the changes Egeria did. They could perhaps even get hosts that way now, when there are no danger from the Goa'uld.

I had the same thought. Cloning Egeria shouldn't be a problem, assuming thye've preserved the symbiote. Ba'al had done the same to himself God knows how many times anyway.

One slight issue regarding the Tok'ra rebuilding their civilisation, though, is that other races like the Jaffa or even the Tau'ri may have mixed feelings about this. Tok'ra are essentially Goa'uld without their evil traits, so it's arguable whether they would present a threat if/when they have reached sufficient numbers to rival that of the Goa'uld back in their heyday.

[webxro]

If they make a queen , they could create new people and become something like the trill .

[escyos]

The best would be if they could figure out how to make someone a queen - perhaps clone a queen and stick the memories of a Tok'ra in her. There should be something useful in the stuff the Asgard left the Tau'ri - perhaps the Tok'ra scientists can do something with that.

That is also good because if they get a queen, they do not need to clone any others and get the problem the Asgard got. She can just spawn more Tok'ra (including other queens). Perhaps they saved a cell-sample from Egeria and can clone her? That would be great!

And I don't think it would be a problem that the kids have the Tok'ra genetic memories, if they chose to have harcesis children. The Tok'ra symbiotes already have this memories and it is not making them evil, because of the changes Egeria did. They could perhaps even get hosts that way now, when there are no danger from the Goa'uld.

The only problem is that Egeria had massive cellular degeneration so her cells would be unhealthy and unsuitable for cloning, now if they got their hands on another Goa'uld queen and wiped her memories they may be able to use Asgard tech to transfer a consciousness but I doubt that you would be able to come across a Goa'uld queen these days.

As for Harcesis children you have to remember that the child would have these memories which may make them mentally unstable. The memories that the Tok'ra have accumulated would still be horrific despite their history as they would also have memory from the Goa'uld that came before Egeria. Would you expose a young child to scenes of horrific murder?

However seeing as the Tok'ra have memory recall and *some* memory manipulation technology they may be able to alter the child so that the memories come out over time or even block most of them. Or maybe even find a way to combine the hosts genetic samples together without the genetic memory from the symbiotes.

[blueray]

i think the only way they could avoid having problems is if they mated with non-hosts. there kid would only be half tok'ra so many not have all the memories (other then maybe their parent).

as for cloning i'm not sure how that would work. i still don't get how baal did it to himself.

[garhkal]

Hows about they use the same tech they used on Ba'al to remove all their symbiots then that proceedure they had for weening Jaffa off tretonin.

[SF_and_Coffee]

Hows about they use the same tech they used on Ba'al to remove all their symbiots then that proceedure they had for weening Jaffa off tretonin.

Yeah, but then they're not Tok'ra anymore, they're just humans. The symbiotes are the Tok'ra. The human half are the hosts. Removing the symbiote would be killing the Tok'ra. Two minds in one body, remember? Two separate beings. So the trick is to find a way to preserve both beings, and allow the Tok'ra symbiotes to find a way to breed.

My understanding is that it is possible for a Goa'uld or Tok'ra queen to choose to produce "tabula rasa" offspring that do not carry the genetic memories normally carried by their species. Isn't that part of what Egeria did with her own offspring in "Cure"? So the trick would be getting hold of a Goa'uld queen who could be induced to spawn blank offspring, including another queen, who wouldn't carry the Goa'uld memories and philosophy, and who could then be raised in the Tok'ra tradition instead. Problem is, the only way the Tok'ra would or could probably do this without going against their own philosophy would be if they could find a queen who would do this willingly, unless she could be tricked in some way.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Maybe you could change the physiology of a normal Tok'ra to make it a queen.

[Snowman37]

Unfortunately, the Tok'ra will eventually die out unless they can find a Goa'uld queen willing to join the Tok'ra. If that doesn't happen, the next best option is to have harsesis children to pass on their legacy to. However, how long would that last? If a harsesis mates with a human, will he pass on his genetic memory? How many generations would this last before genetic dilution? Unfortunately, those are likely the only options.

[garhkal]

And as is, how many hosts are there for tok'ra?

[SF_and_Coffee]

And as is, how many hosts are there for tok'ra?

Potentially, an almost unlimited number. All it takes is a willing human, and as humans got to know the Tok'ra as a species, I think many might well be willing. Especially considering that being a Tok'ra host endows the human with perfect health, long life, lots of knowledge, and can cure chronic or even deadly diseases.

I'd do it in a New York minute.

[magictrick]

And as is, how many hosts are there for tok'ra?

That's not really a problem. Any human with an incurable disease will jump at the opportunity.

[kymeric]

Ohhhhh I like that idea of cloning a queen but erasing its memory. It would grow to maturity AFTER the guaolds fall and taught by the Tokra to be nice. Maybe they could splice some of their memories from after the split with the guaould?

[garhkal]

That's not really a problem. Any human with an incurable disease will jump at the opportunity.

Have we seen any humans from earth takin that choice, other than carters dad?

Heck, do we even know if any others have had it offered?

[SF_and_Coffee]

I think your second question answers the first. I'm not aware of the Tok'ra option having been offered to any other Tau'ri outside the Stargate program... is anyone else?

But if this were real, rather than something dreamed up for a TV show, I'd take it. I'm middle-aged, with no strong ties to family or anyone here that I couldn't bear to stretch or sever, and I have various genetic risks in my family that hosting a Tok'ra would render immaterial, not to mention a genetic blood disorder that I'm already aware of having. And I'd be doing something meaningful, and have access to far more knowledge than I'll ever have here on Earth, even if I lived to be 200.

Surely there have to be a fair number of people like me on this planet, and this would be true in the SG 'verse as well. So as long as some sort of program could be put into place to find and recruit such people, the Tok'ra would have no problem getting hosts from Earth.

[Ibn Rushd]

The essential thing I disliked about the Tok'ra was that you became a hostage and had to give up your life. When watching the Tok'ra Parts 1 & 2 the first time, I wondered why Jacob had to leave right away. Couldn't Selmak have lived on Earth with him, and done normal human things?

I wouldn't want to give up my life, even if I had 5 more mins. to live because it wouldn't have been me afterwards.

[SF_and_Coffee]

The essential thing I disliked about the Tok'ra was that you became a hostage and had to give up your life. When watching the Tok'ra Parts 1 & 2 the first time, I wondered why Jacob had to leave right away. Couldn't Selmak have lived on Earth with him, and done normal human things?

I wouldn't want to give up my life, even if I had 5 more mins. to live because it wouldn't have been me afterwards.

Actually, the only reason that Jacob had to leave right away was because Selmak was an essential part of the Tok'ra group that was in the process of moving from one location to another. They kind of needed Selmak, and that meant needing Jacob, right then. But remember, Jacob was an Air Force general, so he was accustomed to having to heed the call of duty, rather than his own desires. It's probably part of what made him a good host for Selmak.

I don't think that hosting a Tok'ra would necessarily mean having to give up everything in your life, unless maybe your particular symbiote was a Council member or a very busy operative. And even so, the host would get some time to engage in activities of the host's choosing as well, I'm sure. We just never really saw any of that in the series, because it wasn't really the sort of scene that advanced the plot in any of the episodes, and an episode is only so long. Also, remember, there are a limited number of Tok'ra and they do have a job to do, so any human becoming a host would have to know that and be willing to participate. Blending isn't like getting a medical device implanted; you're blending with another individual being. You're still "you" afterward, but you're no longer alone, and you have to take that other being into account. Kind of like having a child, or maybe getting married -- it isn't just you alone anymore that you have to think about.

Not to massively plug my fanfic story or anything, but the one in my sig involves Tok'ra characters, and includes a fair bit of their interactions with their human hosts, including situations where they have in fact chosen to live intermixed with their human host's community and people, rather than off in a place that just has blended Tok'ra and no unblended humans. I wanted to show that possibility and that side of the equation, in ways that the show could not. I also know some other fic writers who have done similar things, and can make recommendations if you're at all interested. If you have specific questions, I'll direct you here, to a discussion of my story in particular, and here, to a recommendation list of Tok'ra stories in general. Both are Gateworld threads, and that first link goes to a post in which there is a sample of the type of symbiote-host relationship I envision. The character referred to as both "Frank" and" Neirin" is actually an unblended human living on a planet that has humans on it, who are in rebellion against their Goa'uld master. The rebellion is aided by a small group of Tok'ra -- a somewhat rogue group in that they favor a certain amount of direct action in tandem with humans, unlike the main, Council-led group. Cadogan is the human host to a Tok'ra named Sabar, and they live among Cadogan's people. Since almost no intelligent species short of a hive-mind is going to be completely monolithic in their thinking, it's my guess that if the Stargate 'verse were a real place, the Tok'ra would naturally have a number of members who are actually like this to some extent, and who would "march to a different drummer" so to speak.

[garhkal]

It does seem like the host is mostly ignored..

[SF_and_Coffee]

I think the host was ignored too much in the later episodes, but initially there seemed to be a fairly equal relationship between the two. I'd like to think that's how things really are.