Originally posted by morrismike
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So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done
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Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 11 April 2011, 03:34 AM.sigpic
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Originally posted by Cold Fuzz View PostNeville Chamberlain wasn't shades of gray. He was simple appeasement. You want shades if gray in WWII? That's firebombing Dresden and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or are you going to be unreasonably black and white and label the Allies as evil as the Goa'uld for actions that were tactically harsh but arguably necessary in those three cities?
That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.
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Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View PostNot to drag the thread offtopic, but Chamberlin's appeasement is a perfect example of a shade of grey, as it was cover for a massive British rearmament program. Chamberlin was flat out lying when he said stuff like "peace in our time" and sacrificed countries like Czechoslovakia in order to give Britain the time needed to build up its military. Not a very nice thing to do, but if he hadn't done it we'd have been fighting the Germans with World War 1 vintage kit.
That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.sigpic
Poppy Appeal
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Originally posted by blackluster View PostEarth alone is inhabited by over a billion people. Every person's life on Earth is at risk since one has no idea how far the Alliance is willing to go to enforce their ideals. Earth's allies are also at risk since there is no guarantee that the Alliance will follow a diplomatic course in every case.
I'm not sure where you came upon the idea that people are only serious if they send zealots. That is rather ridiculous.
People keep saying this has parallels to present day events. Last I looked it was religious fanatics who blew up buildings nearly ten years ago with planes. If you want me to draw parallels with current events and the LA, then why not go all the way?
The Alliance is coldly calculating, but their manpower is of value. Attacking your enemy and persevering your trained soldiers is a mark of intelligence, not lack of resolve. Sending soldiers to needlessly die in war is an act of desperation. The Alliance are in no such position.
lol, well your lack of imagination is hardly something worth discussing...
Earth adopting an isolationist policy must certainly be an opinion in the room in any HWC briefing. In fact, I think it has even come up in SG1 with a senator proposing the complete removal of the stargate because it brings nothing but trouble. The problem in this case is that some of those human populations have things we need to defend ourselves, such as Langara.So while the 'screw them and let them take care of themselves' viewpoint may have good reasons going for it, it doesn't work in every case.
Interestingly enough though, Earth has actually been doing this in isolated case as brainwashed Telford pointed out. The catch 22 of that is, that it has been driving more and more human populations into the arms of the Lucian Alliance as Earth is portrayed as a heartless superpower who just leaves people to die when it suits them. Sure, it is true in isolated cases, but there in lies the complexity of this kind of political situation. It mirrors the kind of conflicts we see today and it sure be clear to everyone that there is no easy solution. The problem in itself produces lots of intrigue and drama, which makes it ideal to incorporate into a tv show.
Earth was perfectly willing to slit the throats of the Langarans in order to dial Destiny. That should play over real well with any other allies it has left...if any.
lol, don't you get it yet? This is one of the major reasons why Earth engaged in the covert operation. That is the big mystery in all this. What is the Lucian Alliance now in the position to offer a sovereign world that could make them think about betraying Earth after everything we've been through together? When you ponder on that for a moment, it would make any strategist very concerned. Everyone has a price as the saying goes, and if the Alliance have somehow managed to meet that price, Earth has some very serious problems.
I'll restate this again.... Covert operation by Earth using the stones to do some spying on the Langarans. I can totally see that happening. Hijacking the gate and forcibly dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with combating the LA "threat" in the Milky Way....which is why this episode stinks and is like the title of the thread says..."the most underhanded thing we've ever done".IMO always implied.
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Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View PostNot to drag the thread offtopic, but Chamberlin's appeasement is a perfect example of a shade of grey, as it was cover for a massive British rearmament program. Chamberlin was flat out lying when he said stuff like "peace in our time" and sacrificed countries like Czechoslovakia in order to give Britain the time needed to build up its military. Not a very nice thing to do, but if he hadn't done it we'd have been fighting the Germans with World War 1 vintage kit.
That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.
Originally posted by morrismike View PostOne needs to look no further than 20th century Germany to see how much "evil" potential there is in the human race.There is a lot of good in us but the evil is just below the surface. I'm sure that Neville Chamberlain was fond of the "shades of gray" argument back in the day.
However this idea that humanity is as evil as the Goa'uld... no. That kind of evil is a different order of magnitude, and is even quantifiable: Because of their racial memory, every Goa'uld born is evil. That's certainly not the case with humans. There has been only one exception to the Goa'uld racial memory: Egeria. After her, the Tok'ra became a separate race. Whereas with humans, a complex set of circumstances determine where a person will be on the spectrum of good and evil. And I say spectrum of good and evil because there is no person currently alive that is completely good or completely evil. So the idea that a newborn human will be as evil as a newborn Goa'uld symbiote is entirely inaccurate.
Anyways, like F.O. Bennett, I can't really devote any more time to this thread and the other Seizure thread as real life calls.Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 11 April 2011, 10:37 AM.sigpic
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Originally posted by LoneStarPeople keep saying this has parallels to present day events. Last I looked it was religious fanatics who blew up buildings nearly ten years ago with planes. If you want me to draw parallels with current events and the LA, then why not go all the way?
But they do want to be taken seriously don't they? A major failed attack on Earth doesn't get you youtube videos to use for recruitment. Not to mention the loss of a cargo ship and the materials they used to build the bomb. See this is where I don't buy all this puffing up of the LA into more than they actually were...a loose organization of drug dealing thugs. To these people, I doubt one measly pilot was considered to be more of a priority than the mission itself.
Nice underhanded comment rather than actually commenting on what I wrote.
You going to tell me that the LA is more powerful than one single Ori ship?
Yeah, and I addressed that if you'd go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say completely pull back from everywhere.So what if it does? They live on other planets far, far away from Earth. And more than likely they live on those nice quaint little planets with the Medieval village sets...which are oh so threatening. The Gou'ald in the Milky Way generally made sure that civilizations they conquered were not powerful enough to fight back.
Earth was perfectly willing to slit the throats of the Langarans in order to dial Destiny. That should play over real well with any other allies it has left...if any.
Oh, I get it just fine. Are you just going to throw several SG-1 episodes of backstory dealing with Langara out the window when new episodes concern them and require an understanding of who they are? I'm not.
I'll restate this again.... Covert operation by Earth using the stones to do some spying on the Langarans. I can totally see that happening. Hijacking the gate and forcibly dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with combating the LA "threat" in the Milky Way....which is why this episode stinks and is like the title of the thread says..."the most underhanded thing we've ever done".
-One is an internal political aspect, as the visit from the senator and scientist goes, the Destiny mission has become about a bit more than the people stranded there.
-The other is willing informants. Currently, Earth's ability to impede Lucian Alliance activity has essentially failed. So far the Alliance has managed to launch a rather successful counter-intelligence campaign against Earth, even achieving the unthinkable of brainwashing and turning an Airforce Colonel, a very high ranking officer who has given them goodness knows what already. Earth's sources of intelligence seem wholly ineffective in even stopping cloaked Tel'taks from coming and going from our atmosphere. Given this alarming position, Earth has a gift in a number of Alliance Traitors who they can draw info from. That is an information source that given the current state of affairs is desperately needed.
-Another reason is technology acquisition. So far the Lucian Alliance are able to successfully jam Asgard beaming and sensor technology which was supposed to be years ahead of the Goa'uld tech that the Lucian supposedly just stole and don't understand. The Alliance are learning at a very alarming rate, neutralizing several of the core technologies that gave Earth an edge in most space conflicts. Letting the Alliance acquire Destiny is a disaster waiting to happen as they seem to have some background info on the ship that Earth doesn't, even with the Atlantis database. If they are able to acquire any sort of technological edge through the Destiny's technology, Earth would be at a major disadvantage.
The above are just some superficial reasons why the defense and proper running of Destiny are important, but personally I think there is much more to it in terms of the Langaran capability, convincing them that the LA method is doomed to fail (Earth couldn't be sure if Destiny was one of the chips in the LA offer to Langara) and also preventing the destruction of a primary naquadah source.
The problem is multifaceted, which is why I have no problem suspending disbelief when it comes to the desperation HWC showed with regard to making sustainable contact with Destiny.
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Originally posted by morrismike View Postno risk??????????????
The last two planets that dialed destiny are dead. McCay has demonstrates awful judgement in these situatations. We are fortunate the asgard are no longer around or our actions would have consequences.
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Originally posted by Python View PostExactly. I was totally expecting the planet to blow. I can't see how anyone would have thought there wasn't a good chance, given McKay's track record and 9th chevron's history of doing so. This episode was a pile of crap.
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Originally posted by morrismike View PostWasn't France busy preparing a big parade in Paris for the Nazi arrival?
And I would just like to point out it's McKay not McCay.sigpic
Poppy Appeal
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Originally posted by blackluster View PostBecause there is no point? I can't recall the Lucian Alliance ever being characterized as fanatic. Their political structure doesn't even seem to feature any kind of religion whatsoever, they are allies of convenience. Why go the suicide bomber route when it is completely unnecessary, both from an universe perspective and from a story telling perspective?
That failed attempt wasn't through any kind of skill or ingenuity on Earth's part, just dumb luck. If you find yourself unable to take undetectable nuclear attacks on your headquarters seriously, then I really don't know what to tell you.
My intent wasn't to be underhanded, just poking fun. Your opinion on the threat you perceive from the Lucian Alliance is entirely subjective, so there is no point debating it, not for me at least.
They're not more powerful, but they're proving themselves to be a damn sight more dangerous. Honestly, SGU's Lucian Alliance make the Ori look like simpletons. Considering the net achievement, the Ori were pretty much a joke when all is said and done.
You misunderstand. I was agreeing with your assertion and following it to a logical end where it is one of the opinions that I feel is a strong voice in Earth decision making. The point I was making is that it is one of many approaches and has its own benefits and drawbacks. The very nature of this kind of political situation is that there is no correct approach, the IOA is only left with bad choices and worse choices. Someone somewhere is guaranteed to lose.
I don't see how it contradicts canon so I don't know what you are talking about.
Earth knows Langarans were in contact with the LA. The UK and other allies talk to terrorist nations, but I'm not going to suddenly assume that the UK is in bed with Iran just because they exchange communications that I can't read. That is such a huge leap in logic.
Well, at least you conceded the covert aspect. The 9th chevron dial attempt is a convoluted issue by itself since one can fashion any number of reasons Earth would get more serious.
-One is an internal political aspect, as the visit from the senator and scientist goes, the Destiny mission has become about a bit more than the people stranded there.
As an example, the US is not going to put a priority on a manned mission to Mars over a military action on Earth. In SGU, Earth is willing to gamble the trust of an ally, the lives of millions, and a valuable resource (naquadria) on some mission to discover an ancient signal.
-The other is willing informants. Currently, Earth's ability to impede Lucian Alliance activity has essentially failed. So far the Alliance has managed to launch a rather successful counter-intelligence campaign against Earth, even achieving the unthinkable of brainwashing and turning an Airforce Colonel, a very high ranking officer who has given them goodness knows what already. Earth's sources of intelligence seem wholly ineffective in even stopping cloaked Tel'taks from coming and going from our atmosphere. Given this alarming position, Earth has a gift in a number of Alliance Traitors who they can draw info from. That is an information source that given the current state of affairs is desperately needed.
-Another reason is technology acquisition. So far the Lucian Alliance are able to successfully jam Asgard beaming and sensor technology which was supposed to be years ahead of the Goa'uld tech that the Lucian supposedly just stole and don't understand. The Alliance are learning at a very alarming rate, neutralizing several of the core technologies that gave Earth an edge in most space conflicts. Letting the Alliance acquire Destiny is a disaster waiting to happen as they seem to have some background info on the ship that Earth doesn't, even with the Atlantis database. If they are able to acquire any sort of technological edge through the Destiny's technology, Earth would be at a major disadvantage.
TELFORD (to Ovirda): The Lucian Alliance wants Destiny. They know that your facility can get them there, and you know damned well that they will not take "no" for an answer.
OVIRDA: There's an excellent argument to dismantle the facility altogether.
TELFORD: Don't think that that will stop them. They will move in faster. They will do anything to get to the Destiny, and won't give a damn if they blow up your planet in the process.
OVIRDA: Then don't let them.
WOOLSEY: If we were allowed to show you that Doctor McKay's dialling solution is safe ...
OVIRDA: Oh, that is the price of your protection from the Lucian Alliance?
WOOLSEY: As a life-long practitioner of diplomacy, you must understand that sovereign states act in their own interest.
OVIRDA: The defence of a supply line, for example.
WOOLSEY (holding his gaze): For example.
OVIRDA: If and when our scientists reach the same conclusion as Doctor McKay ...
McKAY: No-no-no-no-no-no. It could take months for them to understand the science.
OVIRDA: Then that is how long you will have to wait.
TELFORD: The Alliance won't be as patient.
OVIRDA: I have no choice but to hope that you are wrong. Good day, gentlemen.IMO always implied.
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