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Thread: Why would anyone want to ascend?

  1. #21
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    What's the Ancients number 1 rule? No ascended being shall help a lower being ascend. The Ori never broke that rule, all the evidence we have says that Oma Desala interfered in the lower plains and broke the rules far more than the Ori ever did, which indirectly led to the deaths of millions of people . . . and everyone thinks that she's just tops.
    Helping someone ascend isn't against the rules. Ascension only seems to have one rule, you can not interfere in the lower planes of existence. There is of course a line and the Ori danced on that line's grave when they ordered the construction of ships, the formation of an army and decided on a Milky Way purge.

    That's not to say the Ancients were any different because helping those unable to ascend could be considered interference. The real issue is when is it considered interference. Daniel tried to stop Anubis from killing everyone on Abydos but Oma stopped him before he took action. Anubis killed everyone on Abydos but Oma saved them all because she'd already taken them through the ascension process.

    So it's really a matter of catch 22. Can't stop Anubis to save the people on Abydos, yet they were saved because Oma helped them ascend.

    Quote Originally Posted by D Toccs View Post
    Earth had absolutely no proof at all that the Ori were lying.
    The only evidence ever given that the Ori didn't ascend people was the word of Orlin. That may have been enough for Earth and it may be enough for us the viewers, but it is by no means a convincing argument to make.

    Going around telling people the Ori are lying because an Ancient told them as much, is equivalent to saying, "Your gods are bad, because our gods say so".
    It was never about who said what, but who did what. Saying the Ancients told them something gave a bit of credibility, although I do admit I am not sure why. It's not like anyone knew the Ancients were still around, had ascended, could help others ascend or would lift a finger to help even if the universe decided to implode.

    However SG1 has experienced ascension. They saw the monk on Keb ascend, they saw Orlin ascend, they saw Daniel ascend, they saw Skaara ascend and it was all the same pretty light show. Not once did a Prior ascend, not once did an Ori soldier ascend. SG1 knew they didn't ascend people, Orlin just explained why and as it so happened, turned out to be the truth when Adria returned, after she also ascending in the same pretty light show as before. Now Prior's deciding to go KFC on themselves looks cool, but doesn't have the same effect.

    Saying the Ori are bad because the Ancients told them is no different to what the Ori did to their followers, as the Ori said the exact same thing about those living in the Milky Way and any non Origin follower in general.



  2. #22
    First Lieutenant D Toccs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    Helping someone ascend isn't against the rules. Ascension only seems to have one rule, you can not interfere in the lower planes of existence. There is of course a line and the Ori danced on that line's grave when they ordered the construction of ships, the formation of an army and decided on a Milky Way purge.

    That's not to say the Ancients were any different because helping those unable to ascend could be considered interference. The real issue is when is it considered interference. Daniel tried to stop Anubis from killing everyone on Abydos but Oma stopped him before he took action. Anubis killed everyone on Abydos but Oma saved them all because she'd already taken them through the ascension process.

    So it's really a matter of catch 22. Can't stop Anubis to save the people on Abydos, yet they were saved because Oma helped them ascend.
    I think you've really misunderstood all the ascension stuff. Ascension itself comes with absolutely no rules.
    The non-interference rule is of the Ancients making and they enforce it on every ascended being within their sphere of influence. Helping a lower being ascend is the highest violation of the non-interference rule, that is why Oma was being punished in the first place because by helping people to ascend she inadvertently ascended someone as evil as Anubis.


    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    Saying the Ori are bad because the Ancients told them is no different to what the Ori did to their followers, as the Ori said the exact same thing about those living in the Milky Way and any non Origin follower in general.
    Exactly, that is my point. That Earth trying to convert people away from Origin is the same thing as Priors trying to covert people to it. Both of them are just pushing their own beliefs.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Is there any proof ever given that being "Ascended" is really all that great of a situation?

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  4. #24
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Flyattractor View Post
    Is there any proof ever given that being "Ascended" is really all that great of a situation?
    Immortality, super powers,invisibility, able to enter people's dreams, ability to travel across the universe with minimal effort, better understanding of everything. The real problem is the non interference rule but it makes perfect sense to have it.



  5. #25
    Major Infinite-Possibilities's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    The Ancients (or at least "The Others") not only don't care what happens to the entire galaxy at all, they've actively destroyed an entire civilization in order to teach one of their own a lesson, so most of them are pretty bad.

    That doesn't mean that being an ascended being in and of itself is bad though. Daniel and Oma were not like them, they were just restricted by the Others' rules.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

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  6. #26
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    The Ancients (or at least "The Others") not only don't care what happens to the entire galaxy at all, they've actively destroyed an entire civilization in order to teach one of their own a lesson, so most of them are pretty bad.

    That doesn't mean that being an ascended being in and of itself is bad though. Daniel and Oma were not like them, they were just restricted by the Others' rules.
    They didn't destroy a civilisation just to teach one of their own (Orlin) a lesson. When Orlin talks about what had happened, he says the race he gave that technology decided to use it for conquest. Chances are that Orlin would have been punished like Chaya, as she decided to protect a race from the Wraith as he decided to protect a race from the Goa'uld. So in the end, he could have been stuck on that world (like he was) defending them himself. It wasn't until they wanted to conquer others that The Others took action to restore the balance.

    So in the end, what The Others did was for the best.



  7. #27
    Staff Sergeant sholva1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    the immortality

  8. #28

    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    The Others aren't really moral or immoral, it's like us looking at at a group of say Hunter gatherers and they also posses the belief that they don't have a right to interfere with lower plains.

    The knowledge of the universe and the power are plenty of reason I'd want to ascend.

  9. #29
    First Lieutenant The Urban Spaceman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?


    Why would anyone want to ascend?
    For the x-ray vision.
    Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.



  10. #30
    Airman Anoobian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devlin Kyle SG-9 View Post
    Horsecrap! The Ori are exploiting the same knowledge that the Ancients developed for ascension and using it to lie to, and enslave other beings. 1) those with power have an absolute DUTY to help others with that power. 2) esp in this case, because the Ori could not be doing what they are doing without Ancient knowledge.
    Just my interjection here. People with power having a duty to help others is something that's taught, not necessarily true. The whole compassion for others and how you treat other people are all morals imposed by society. It doesn't mean its true.

  11. #31
    Chief Master Sergeant Dr. D.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devlin Kyle SG-9 View Post
    The Ancients/Alterans are a bunch of ***holes and aren't much better morally than the Ori. They have all that power and just sit back and do NOTHING while the galaxy burns in S9 and 10.

    If being ascended means being what they are...I'll pass.
    There's a fair share of ascended Ancients, particularly the collective group known as The Others, who can be seen as complete jerks. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that they're as far off as the ascended Ori. The big issue with the non-interference is not a jerk thing but, rather, letting events take place through as close as possible to a natural order. There were obviously exceptions to that - like when they turned a blind eye to SG-1 sending the Sangraal through to the Ori - but, for the most part, the Ancients have always done a pretty good job of staying out of the way and letting the lower lifeforms do their own thing.

    It sounds like you are addressing 2 topics:

    1) the moral ambiguity of ascended beings, and
    2) why anyone might want to ascend.

    Would I want to ascend? Yes! Of course. If given the option, it would be a fantastic next step. Passing from one life to the next would be great. Really, the question should be:

    Why would anyone not want to ascend?

  12. #32
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Well, I'd ascend even if I couldn't interfere, mainly because of the amount of knowledge and wisdom blablabla I will gain. Even Rush wants to ascend.

  13. #33
    Lieutenant Colonel rushy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    On second thought, because the Others are ascended and I want to finally meet Ben Linus.

  14. #34
    First Lieutenant Brother Freyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Also, you and other like-minded ascendeds could break away from the main group, adopt a distant galaxy of your own, and make your own rules (or lack thereof).

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by caribsci View Post
    Oh and another thing.......earth been hiding the stargate program from its own ppl...but want to go to other worlds and ask others to disclose their program to the entire populace......how is that right?
    Well said.

    Also another option for the ancients. They could simply have nullified the Priors powers and then when they tried to preach, they'd simply look like fools and get themselves kicked back to their home galaxy.
    From what i gathered, most of a prior's powre came from their staffs,and some was internalized.. So how would the ancients have nullified them?

    Earth had absolutely no proof at all that the Ori were lying.
    The only evidence ever given that the Ori didn't ascend people was the word of Orlin. That may have been enough for Earth and it may be enough for us the viewers, but it is by no means a convincing argument to make.

    Going around telling people the Ori are lying because an Ancient told them as much, is equivalent to saying, "Your gods are bad, because our gods say so".
    Agreed in some sense.. We also got clarification from Adria as well as Daniel.

    Just my interjection here. People with power having a duty to help others is something that's taught, not necessarily true. The whole compassion for others and how you treat other people are all morals imposed by society. It doesn't mean its true.
    Very true.. And even not all earthen culturs have a part in it about those with the power to help must.

    Also, you and other like-minded ascendeds could break away from the main group, adopt a distant galaxy of your own, and make your own rules (or lack thereof).
    Do we even know if they can go galaxy to galaxy?

  16. #36
    First Lieutenant Brother Freyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    Do we even know if they can go galaxy to galaxy?
    That's a good question, but I think the answer is yes. A final confrontation was anticipated between the ascended Ori and the ascended Ancients, diverted only because of Merlin's weapon. For such a battle to occur, one of the two groups would have to travel to the other group's galaxy. Also, Ganis Lal (Lao?) appears to SG-1 in 3 different galaxies: Milky Way, Pegasus, and the Ori home galaxy.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Maybe she "Tied herself" to Jackson? Much like Obi wan did it with Luke.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Vala gave the answer in the last season : improving ourself could be the life's sense, and I'm agree with that, since that's what everything in the universe tend to do. And ascending totally responds to this definition.


    On the other point, I'm totally agree with the autor of this post, most of the Anciens were totally stupid (they really don't reflect what I consider a "superior intelligence"), by doing nothing while Oris were interfering in the inferior world. The fact that happens in a galaxy or another one has no value, distances don't count about this question, the only one is : inferior vs superior world. If one interfere, their rule is overrided, and must be fixed.
    Oris did that by giving powers to inferior beings.

    For the ones who speak about similarities between Oris and an the Earth's attempt to convert :

    - Oris know they're lying, and they do that for their benefit.
    Tellurians think (and know) they're true, and do that by altruism.
    - Oris kill people who don't believe in them, they deny the right of free-will.
    Tellurians just report what they know, then let people choose what they'll believe in.
    - Oris are wrong, claiming they're gods.
    Tellurians are right, the truth is that Oris are powerful, but not gods, like the Ancients are.
    And they just say that, it's not like they would say Ancients are gods.
    - Fondamentally, Oris have a religious behavior ("here is the truth, you MUST believe it")
    Tellurians have rationnel behavior ("here is what I think, and to underpin that, here are the proofs I've").
    - Oris can't proove they're right
    Tellurians can. Proving Oris are wrong, by bringing out that no superior being appears while Oris' believers die.
    Proving Ancients are true, by bringing out superior beings appear while some individual, spiritually very advanced (while not believing in Oris) die, as that happened during the story.

  19. #39
    First Lieutenant siles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    Ascension would be the ultimate goal for someone more interested in knowledge than action

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Why would anyone want to ascend?

    It's worth considering that we don't have all of the information; we don't know the exact reasons for why the ascended beings did what they did, or, rather, didn't do what they didn't do. It's generally poor judgment to judge someone without hearing their side of the story.

    So perhaps the ascended beings have a really great reason for their inaction and if we could ascend us, they'd share the reasons and we'd go "Oh yeah, right- lol I can totally see why you didn't do anything there! Boy what a terrible idea that would've been, eh?"
    They figured he was a lazy, time-wasting slacker. They were right.

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