What is the best/most powerfull Ship Class in the Stargate?

[lordofseas]

We didn't see much except for a few shots.
We know the Asgard could eventually make weapons capable of penetrating Ori shields, where previous weapons couldn't.
I really meant O'Neills with APBWs.
From what was seen it's impossible to get any accurate gauge of how strong the shields on the ship in Camelot were.

Except that they managed to sustain more hits than the Korelev.

We do.
In the episode every character that mentions the Hive and ZPM, says a ZPM or the ZPM, not ZPMs.
Here's a link to the Stargate Solutions transcript of EATG:
http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.co...%22_Transcript

That's an assumption. We never see how they learn information like this.

Travelers could resist Asuran weapons, Ancient ones have never been shown to impact Traveler shields.

Asuran weaponry is identical to Ancient weaponry, although outdated. Just like everything else in their society.

[Ouroboros]

The hive had one ZPM. There's nothing in the episode to suggest it had more than that. There's no assumption necessary at all. It's right there in the dialog. They talk bout "A" ZPM not ZPM(s).

It couldn't be simpler.

The assumption only comes into play on the part of people wanting to imagine more zpms into it because they can't believe it could be as powerful as it was with only one.



I wonder if an O'neill would get a performance boost from having a ZPM, or if their own power generators are already as good or better.

[lordofseas]

The hive had one ZPM. There's nothing in the episode to suggest it had more than that. There's no assumption necessary at all. It's right there in the dialog. They talk bout "A" ZPM not ZPM(s).

It couldn't be simpler.

The assumption only comes into play on the part of people wanting to imagine more zpms into it because they can't believe it could be as powerful as it was with only one.

I wonder if an O'neill would get a performance boost from having a ZPM, or if their own power generators are already as good or better.

...except that the hive got to Earth far more quickly than they anticipated. Atlantis and Earth were working with the time frame of a single Zero Point Module, proven by the dialogue that you so cite from above. Wraith hyperdrives are similar to Ancient hyperdrives, seeing as the Wraith were able to upgrade their hyperdrives using Ancient data (See Aurora, No Man's Land), and that Ancient Hyperdrives are also directly linked to how much power is pumped through them (see First Strike, Lifeline, and Enemy at the Gate). Seeing as McKay would be able to extrapolate the time it would take to cross the void, assuming that it would be with only 1 ZPM, it makes sense that at least more than 1 ZPM would be on board.

[Ouroboros]

...except that the hive got to Earth far more quickly than they anticipated. Atlantis and Earth were working with the time frame of a single Zero Point Module, proven by the dialogue that you so cite from above. Wraith hyperdrives are similar to Ancient hyperdrives, seeing as the Wraith were able to upgrade their hyperdrives using Ancient data (See Aurora, No Man's Land), and that Ancient Hyperdrives are also directly linked to how much power is pumped through them (see First Strike, Lifeline, and Enemy at the Gate). Seeing as McKay would be able to extrapolate the time it would take to cross the void, assuming that it would be with only 1 ZPM, it makes sense that at least more than 1 ZPM would be on board.

They had no real idea of the extent to which the ZPM had boosted the hive's abilities. This is all over the episode. They get surprised by the dramatically increased firepower, surprised by the ability to see through ancient cloaks, surprised by the ability to pick up transmissions from another galaxy. It's not much of a stretch that they would likewise be surprised by the hyper drive speed as well.

They underestimated the thing for the entire episode.

The only reason it didn't all end with a huge pile of burnt corpses was because the plot just forcibly didn't allow the Daedalus, Apollo, Sun Tzu and Atlantis itself to pay the full price of those underestimations as they were all fed to it piecemeal.

This does not mean that the hive must have had more ZPMs than the dialog actually says though, just that the Atlantis team and Earth scientists underestimated just how drastically a ZPM power source would improve a Wraith ship's performance. Something that's not too surprising considering the fact no one had ever tried doing it before, and the unusual biomechanical nature of the Wraith's tech base in general that would make it difficult to predict based on passed experience with more conventional fully mechanical ships.

In any case though "superhive" is not a class of ship since only one was ever built, so it's ineligible for this contest from the get go.

[lordofseas]

They had no real idea of the extent to which the ZPM had boosted the hive's abilities. This is all over the episode. They get surprised by the dramatically increased firepower, surprised by the ability to see through ancient cloaks, surprised by the ability to pick up transmissions from another galaxy. It's not much of a stretch that they would likewise be surprised by the hyper drive speed as well.

They underestimated the thing for the entire episode.

The only reason it didn't all end with a huge pile of burnt corpses was because the plot just forcibly didn't allow the Daedalus, Apollo, Sun Tzu and Atlantis itself to pay the full price of those underestimations as they were all fed to it piecemeal.

This does not mean that the hive must have had more ZPMs than the dialog actually says though, just that the Atlantis team and Earth scientists underestimated just how drastically a ZPM power source would improve a Wraith ship's performance. Something that's not too surprising considering the fact no one had ever tried doing it before, and the unusual biomechanical nature of the Wraith's tech base in general that would make it difficult to predict based on passed experience with more conventional fully mechanical ships.

In any case though "superhive" is not a class of ship since only one was ever built, so it's ineligible for this contest from the get go.

It's a crap episode. No need to discuss ZPMs here.

Back to topic. Best class: Daedalus class.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Except that they managed to sustain more hits than the Korelev.

From a different weapon, which were the pulses shot from the Ori Motherships, these weapons took multiple (although rapidly fired and delivered quickly) shots to down a Ha'Tak, visually we don't really see that many more pulses hit the Asgard's vessel than were shown to down the Ha'Taks.
We never see the main beam weapon of the Ori motherships actually hit the Asgard ship.
What we do see is brief and in no way gives us a clear impression of how much stronger the Asgard's vessel was compared to everything else, not in the same way 304s can be compared to Ha'Taks in shield strength.

We never see the Asgard ship get destroyed, I think someone in the episode after Camelot says something along the lines of "the ori ships cut through all of the fleet", which would have to mean the Asgard ship was destroyed, but no specific details were given, so all we can say is we don't how strong it was in comparison to the other ships there.

That's an assumption. We never see how they learn information like this.

No it is not, diologue is clear and they got their information from Todd here it's in the transcript link I posted above:

TODD
Well, he acquired a rare and powerful piece of technology— one with which I believe you are quite familiar…

INT—MCKAY'S LAB

[Woolsey and Sheppard's team congregate in McKay's lab.]

MCKAY
A ZPM? Are you kidding me?

Asuran weaponry is identical to Ancient weaponry, although outdated. Just like everything else in their society.

While the Asurans architecture and designs may look similar or even like a carbon copy of Ancient tech that doesn't mean they aren't different on a fundemental level.
Still the fact remains that it's never been stated that they are identical, of course it's not been said that they aren't.
I will say that Ancient Auroras have been shown to destroy a Hive and Wraith Cruiser with ease, the Asurans for whatever reason seemed to have trouble destroying the Hives in BAMSR, yet they had more ships which only makes sense if their tech is inferior, the difference is clear when we also look at the episode The Queen (season 5 of SGA), since a PJ can fire no more than 10 Drones on a widespread area that wasn't being hit by Hive weapons (not from what I recall) the Ancient tech has to be better.

[lordofseas]

From a different weapon, which were the pulses shot from the Ori Motherships, these weapons took multiple (although rapidly fired and delivered quickly) shots to down a Ha'Tak, visually we don't really see that many more pulses hit the Asgard's vessel than were shown to down the Ha'Taks.
We never see the main beam weapon of the Ori motherships actually hit the Asgard ship.
What we do see is brief and in no way gives us a clear impression of how much stronger the Asgard's vessel was compared to everything else, not in the same way 304s can be compared to Ha'Taks in shield strength.

We never see the Asgard ship get destroyed, I think someone in the episode after Camelot says something along the lines of "the ori ships cut through all of the fleet", which would have to mean the Asgard ship was destroyed, but no specific details were given, so all we can say is we don't how strong it was in comparison to the other ships there.

Last I checked, the Odyssey was part of that fleet, and it wasn't destroyed.

No it is not, diologue is clear and they got their information from Todd here it's in the transcript link I posted above:

1. We don't see Todd say it outright.

2. Todd told the truth off and on during that episode. Anything he said is circumspect, unless proven or contradicted by the show.

While the Asurans architecture and designs may look similar or even like a carbon copy of Ancient tech that doesn't mean they aren't different on a fundemental level.
Still the fact remains that it's never been stated that they are identical, of course it's not been said that they aren't.
I will say that Ancient Auroras have been shown to destroy a Hive and Wraith Cruiser with ease, the Asurans for whatever reason seemed to have trouble destroying the Hives in BAMSR, yet they had more ships which only makes sense if their tech is inferior, the difference is clear when we also look at the episode The Queen (season 5 of SGA), since a PJ can fire no more than 10 Drones on a widespread area that wasn't being hit by Hive weapons (not from what I recall) the Ancient tech has to be better.

The Asuran Auroras are inferior to the Lantean Auroras. Natural progression of technology, especially in wartime.

[webxro]

While the Asurans architecture and designs may look similar or even like a carbon copy of Ancient tech that doesn't mean they aren't different on a fundemental level.
Still the fact remains that it's never been stated that they are identical, of course it's not been said that they aren't.
I will say that Ancient Auroras have been shown to destroy a Hive and Wraith Cruiser with ease, the Asurans for whatever reason seemed to have trouble destroying the Hives in BAMSR, yet they had more ships which only makes sense if their tech is inferior, the difference is clear when we also look at the episode The Queen (season 5 of SGA), since a PJ can fire no more than 10 Drones on a widespread area that wasn't being hit by Hive weapons (not from what I recall) the Ancient tech has to be better.

Ok do i need to post that part of the BAMSR when a 302 destroys a Aurora with 2 missiles .

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Last I checked, the Odyssey was part of that fleet, and it wasn't destroyed.

The Ori ships destroyed the Korolev with relative ease, there's only one reason Odyssey was left alive and that's so the message could be passed on of how strong the Ori were.
I'll refer back to my previous point, we didn't actually see the ship blowing up or when it happened, there's no information on how many shows of whatever weapons (main beam or pulses cannons) were the final killers of the Asgard vessel.
Basically we know nothing apart from that Asgard ship took what looks like more pulse shots than the Ha'Tak.
TBH I don't even know why you're arguing against this, I never said I thought the Asgard ships were weaker than Ha'Taks or anything else, I think I actually said with APBWs I think they'd be better than 304s, since they are entirely Asgard made and not just a few parts tacked on to a less advanced races ship hull

1. We don't see Todd say it outright.

Well he said "he aquired A rare and powerful piece of technology", he didn't say that Wraith had aquired several, there's nothing ambiguous about Todd's statement.

2. Todd told the truth off and on during that episode. Anything he said is circumspect, unless proven or contradicted by the show.

I thought you may say something like that.
There's nothing about that episode that suggests there was any more than one ZPM, there's no statement by any other character on the show or any set piece that suggests more than one ZPM being used in the Hives construction.
Todd didn't have any reason to lie to the Atlantis team, he was behind bars and would be risking his own life if the ship were to destroy Daedalus, if more ZPMs were present on that ship it would have been mentioned at some point, it would have been a part of the plot that was pointed out, it wasn't and diologue is the only source of info about the number of ZPMs in use on that ship, with nothing else contradicting it.
Since no previous Hives have been shown to use a single or multiple ZPMs there's no other benchmark for what they can do to a Hive.

The Asuran Auroras are inferior to the Lantean Auroras. Natural progression of technology, especially in wartime.

That's what I'm saying, the Lantian ones are better, more capable warships.
I don't recall it being said that the Ancients gave the Asurans designs or lower level versions of their own tech and built it into their programming or anything like that, which would allow them to make perfect copies of the older versions of Ancient tech.
As far as I'm aware the Asurans were intended to be a nano weapon, one that infected the Wraith anything Wraith related, I don't think they were designed to be humanoid or made to make technology like the Ancients had.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Ok do i need to post that part of the BAMSR when a 302 destroys a Aurora with 2 missiles .

Yeah and a battered and bruised orion is holding back fire from a Hive or two on power reserves, there's no indication that the Asuran's ones can even come close to this.
I wouldn't even be surprized if Atlantis could easily pwn Asuras with a decent sized drone salvo.
Basically I think the Asurans are sheeps in wolves clothing, all style and no substance in anything but maybe ZPMs.

[webxro]

The Ori ships destroyed the Korolev with relative ease, there's only one reason Odyssey was left alive and that's so the message could be passed on of how strong the Ori were.

2 ships firring simultaneously in a single place it's easy , yes they could destroy the Ody , but not like a leaf in the wind

I'll refer back to my previous point, we didn't actually see the ship blowing up or when it happened, there's no information on how many shows of whatever weapons (main beam or pulses cannons) were the final killers of the Asgard vessel.
Basically we know nothing apart from that Asgard ship took what looks like more pulse shots than the Ha'Tak.
TBH I don't even know why you're arguing against this, I never said I thought the Asgard ships were weaker than Ha'Taks or anything else, I think I actually said with APBWs I think they'd be better than 304s, since they are entirely Asgard made and not just a few parts tacked on to a less advanced races ship hull

Three letters ZPM , that's the thing ,and the 304 is smaller and maneuverable

Well he said "he aquired A rare and powerful piece of technology", he didn't say that Wraith had aquired several, there's nothing ambiguous about Todd's statement.

it could mean more , you are going on semantics , how many things did Todd omit to tell

That's what I'm saying, the Lantian ones are better, more capable warships.
I don't recall it being said that the Ancients gave the Asurans designs or lower level versions of their own tech and built it into their programming or anything like that, which would allow them to make perfect copies of the older versions of Ancient tech.
As far as I'm aware the Asurans were intended to be a nano weapon, one that infected the Wraith anything Wraith related, I don't think they were designed to be humanoid or made to make technology like the Ancients had.

Probably the Asurans copied that from the ancient database before they where attacked by the ancients

[lordofseas]

The Ori ships destroyed the Korolev with relative ease, there's only one reason Odyssey was left alive and that's so the message could be passed on of how strong the Ori were.
I'll refer back to my previous point, we didn't actually see the ship blowing up or when it happened, there's no information on how many shows of whatever weapons (main beam or pulses cannons) were the final killers of the Asgard vessel.
Basically we know nothing apart from that Asgard ship took what looks like more pulse shots than the Ha'Tak.
TBH I don't even know why you're arguing against this, I never said I thought the Asgard ships were weaker than Ha'Taks or anything else, I think I actually said with APBWs I think they'd be better than 304s, since they are entirely Asgard made and not just a few parts tacked on to a less advanced races ship hull

Really? Because the message would have been more effective if they obliterated everything it their path. It would have fit more accordingly with their beliefs, conform or die. Destruction of their entire fleet instead of decimation would have been much more effective.

I like being maniacal.

Well he said "he aquired A rare and powerful piece of technology", he didn't say that Wraith had aquired several, there's nothing ambiguous about Todd's statement.

Todd also said he only received 3 Zero Point Modules from Asuras. Todd never lies. Never. Nope. Nada. Zippo. Zero. Donut-like number.

I thought you may say something like that.
There's nothing about that episode that suggests there was any more than one ZPM, there's no statement by any other character on the show or any set piece that suggests more than one ZPM being used in the Hives construction.

Except that their predictions were based on the idea that they only had 1 ZPM, and those predictions were WRONG.

Todd didn't have any reason to lie to the Atlantis team, he was behind bars and would be risking his own life if the ship were to destroy Daedalus, if more ZPMs were present on that ship it would have been mentioned at some point, it would have been a part of the plot that was pointed out, it wasn't and diologue is the only source of info about the number of ZPMs in use on that ship, with nothing else contradicting it.
Since no previous Hives have been shown to use a single or multiple ZPMs there's no other benchmark for what they can do to a Hive.

Todd has never had any reason to lie to Sheppard. Yet he has. Repeatedly.

That's what I'm saying, the Lantian ones are better, more capable warships.
I don't recall it being said that the Ancients gave the Asurans designs or lower level versions of their own tech and built it into their programming or anything like that, which would allow them to make perfect copies of the older versions of Ancient tech.
As far as I'm aware the Asurans were intended to be a nano weapon, one that infected the Wraith anything Wraith related, I don't think they were designed to be humanoid or made to make technology like the Ancients had.

It doesn't need to be said, it needs to be thought out. Think logically, and take, for example, the microwave. Microwaves, 10 years ago, were much bigger, clunkier, and less efficient as they are today. Technology progresses with the needs of the society. Now, the Lantean/Wraith war existed for at least 100 years. Even if the Asurans were "sedated", in a sense, 10 years before the Ancients fled, the technology of the Aurora would have still advanced. Shield strength, sensors, they would have still been advancing up to the time they evacuated.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

2 ships firring simultaneously in a single place it's easy , yes they could destroy the Ody , but not like a leaf in the wind

They could have done the exact same thing to Odyssey.
If they'd wanted to it was dead in the water, not exactly hard for them to target.

Three letters ZPM , that's the thing ,and the 304 is smaller and maneuverable

And we know the Ori had ZPMs from which episode exactly?
I'm not saying they don't have some uber power source of their own, but you're making a massive assumption if you're stating their followers use the exact same power source as the Ancients did for their tech.
BTW we're talking about the differences between the Asgard ship, 304s, etc.
I'll say again though there's no proof of exactly how many shots from the Ori ships were enough to down the Asgard vessel, so there's little point in arguing differences except to say about what we know, everything else is speculation.

it could mean more , you are going on semantics , how many things did Todd omit to tell

No there's no indication it means anything more, it's pure speculation that any more were used.
If you're going to argue against what diologue states, then you need to provide proof that there's reason to believe there were more.
Todd perhaps telling porkies on a few occasions isn't a good enough reason when his life was at risk being on Daedalus.
Point to a part of EATG that proves there were more ZPMs on the Hive.

Probably the Asurans copied that from the ancient database before they where attacked by the ancients

Either that or they copied the look of the technologies and filled in blanks in their knowledge with their own ideas.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Really? Because the message would have been more effective if they obliterated everything it their path. It would have fit more accordingly with their beliefs, conform or die. Destruction of their entire fleet instead of decimation would have been much more effective.

I like being maniacal.

All people would get from that is "this is what the Ori claim they did", if people from Earth and the other few that survived both say they stood no chance it's far more effective in putting the fear into anyone who wants to stand against them, especially if the Asgard a race considered to be superior "gods" to the Goauld were swepped asside with ease.
Odyssey provides eye witness testemony for the Ori's power against space faring magic tech.

Todd also said he only received 3 Zero Point Modules from Asuras. Todd never lies. Never. Nope. Nada. Zippo. Zero. Donut-like number.

I never said he never lies, I said there's no indication he was lying here.

Except that their predictions were based on the idea that they only had 1 ZPM, and those predictions were WRONG.

Ermm, no they said the ship would eventually be nie on indestructible, that doesn't imply their predictions were wrong, they didn't know what to expect when Daedalus faced it, their tech just wasn't powerful enough from the beginning and considering Daedalus wasn't being powered off of a ZPM that's not surprizing.
The Hive then had further time to adapt to the greater energy levels.
I'd like to point out that we don't know how much weaker a Hive's standard power source is compared to the 304's reactors.

Todd has never had any reason to lie to Sheppard. Yet he has. Repeatedly.

When he's had a way out, he's also shown himself to be honerable at times too, like when he sucked out some life from Sheppard and then gave him back more years later when they first met.

It doesn't need to be said, it needs to be thought out. Think logically, and take, for example, the microwave. Microwaves, 10 years ago, were much bigger, clunkier, and less efficient as they are today. Technology progresses with the needs of the society. Now, the Lantean/Wraith war existed for at least 100 years. Even if the Asurans were "sedated", in a sense, 10 years before the Ancients fled, the technology of the Aurora would have still advanced. Shield strength, sensors, they would have still been advancing up to the time they evacuated.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but in order for it to be canon it needs to be at least implied, the fact that the two races tech look the same means nothing.
Again and just like with the Asgard ship in Camelot we don't know any details, it's that simple, I shouldn't have to say don't judge a book by it's cover.
Anyway it doesn't really matter how the technology came into existence, point is it looks similar but it's no where near as good, so we agree on that at least.

[lordofseas]

Baah, I don't want to derail the thread further. We'll probably never know, and we'll never be able to agree, so there.

Daedalus, post-Orilla = best ship.

[thekillman]

i disagree.

An O'neill, finished one day before Orilla was destroyed, would own a Deadalus Class of any type and form.

reason: it has everything that makes a Deadalus so powerful (asgard tech) and lacks everything that makes a deadalus weak (human technology).


it's one big piece of asgard engineering, with superior shields, bigger than a Deadalus, requires less crew, superior weapons (APBW tech, but then designed for the O'neill) plus it can carry MORE APBW's.

[Ouroboros]

I'd also pick the O'neill over the Daedalus for much the same reasons. The only reason the upgraded 304s are as good as they are is because of the Asgard tech they have.

It's silly to think that them having some Asgard tech would somehow make them better than state of the art Asgard warships built with 100% Asgard tech.

The Odyssey has the funny time dilation thing going for it but it's out of the running for the same reason the superhive is, there's only one of them.

[Hitokage]

I love Destiny but even that Asgard ships were not bad

[lordofseas]

i disagree.

An O'neill, finished one day before Orilla was destroyed, would own a Deadalus Class of any type and form.

reason: it has everything that makes a Deadalus so powerful (asgard tech) and lacks everything that makes a deadalus weak (human technology).


it's one big piece of asgard engineering, with superior shields, bigger than a Deadalus, requires less crew, superior weapons (APBW tech, but then designed for the O'neill) plus it can carry MORE APBW's.

Except, as far as we know, none existed.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

i disagree.

An O'neill, finished one day before Orilla was destroyed, would own a Deadalus Class of any type and form.

reason: it has everything that makes a Deadalus so powerful (asgard tech) and lacks everything that makes a deadalus weak (human technology).


it's one big piece of asgard engineering, with superior shields, bigger than a Deadalus, requires less crew, superior weapons (APBW tech, but then designed for the O'neill) plus it can carry MORE APBW's.

I think an O'Neill built from around Unnatural Selection with a few APBWs tacked on would be better than a ZPM powered 304.

Overall I think a ZPM powered Aurora built at the height of the Wraith vs Ancients war could possibly be the winner, then maybe the Super Hive, then an O'Neill with APBWs and finally a ZPM powered 304 with APBWs.
Only way to know for sure would be to see them in action.

Reason I think an Aurora would be so powerful is it uses more recent Ancient technology, is presumably built with a ZPM in mind, hadn't been sitting around doing nothing, unmaintained for several millenia, was likely designed to fight in a war, not just for a battle here and there and it wasn't only meant to be a place where people live that would occasionally need to defend itself.
In time Earth should be able to build something akin to an O'Neill, with all the Unending bells and whistles.

Really any one of these ships should be lethal in the right hands, and a battle between any of them would be pretty close IMO, except maybe with a massive drone dump from the Aurora, I think that would just swarm the battle field and not really give anyone much of a chance to fire more than a few shots.
One on one I think it's the Aurora ZPM powered that would win provided it's got sufficient ammo, otherwise and if they have enegy weapons it would be very close IMO.
The Ancients have never been shown to fire them from the Auroras we've seen, though I realise people have tried to point out cannons being placed all over the hull and Destiny did feature pulse weaponry, which proves the Ancient did at some point in time use them.
The unknowns of just how powerful such weapons may be with a ZPM powering the energy weapons grid of an Aurora makes it impossible to say who would win for sure.
Without drones it'd probably be the Super Hive, but I'm not sure and the Ancients and Asgard would never fight each other, so they'd probably gang up on the Wraith, with Earth joining in for good fun.