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    In Young we trust

    I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

    Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.

    The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. Civilians (at least those from a democratic societies like in the west) don't like to live in an autocratic society because unless we make the choice to give up our democratic rights to be part of the military it makes us feel vulnerable and out of control. This impulse is ingrained in us our whole lives by the example of "reigns of terror" and all the other nasty things that other autocratic societies have done and suffered and how they have ultimately failed.

    What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.

    The problem occurs when the power is inherited, and instead of being given to the one who can do it is given to the son of the one who can do it (did you know that the Roman Emperor Nero was the son of a much loved and respected general? His is an extreme example). Or when the society grows so large and the civilians vastly outnumber the military and so they are not represented.

    This is where BSG and SGU are different. BSG had a huge civilian population and so required a democratic system. There are less than 80 people on Destiny, at least a 3rd of them military, in a position where one person must be in charge - there is no time to vote on all decisons.

    And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

    Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?

    I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.

    The way I see it, Young has made 3 mistakes. He slept with a subordinate officer, he balked at sacrificing Rush (as he saw it - if he had known it was Telford I think he would have done it with the knowledge that Telford had volunteered to endanger himself when he joined the airforce) and he marooned Rush. The thing with Rush though I even can explain - the guy pretty much told him "I am never going to stop trying to undermine/kill you". As I say the safety of the crew requires that one person be in command and anyone who goes against that is endangering everyone. That is after all what mutiny IS and why it is so harshly punished. I have always seen Young like the Captain of an old sailing ship. These guys would be referred to as "Master After God" because of the power they had, and needed. They were out of touch with their superiors for months at least with hundred(s) of people to look after and the need to survive all sorts of things, including enemy action.

    Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

    I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.
    40
    Col Everett Young
    50.00%
    20
    Dr Nicholas Rush
    7.50%
    3
    Camille Wray
    7.50%
    3
    Lt Matthew Scott
    0.00%
    0
    Eli Wallace
    7.50%
    3
    Lt Tamara Johanson
    7.50%
    3
    Col David Telford
    20.00%
    8
    "The laws of favours are amongst the most fundamental in the multiverse. The first law is: nobody asks for just one favour; the second request (after the granting of the first favour), prefaced by ‘and can I be really cheeky…?’ is the asking of the second favour. If the aforesaid second request is not granted, the second law ensures that the need for any gratitude for the first favour is nullified, and in accordance with the third law the favour giver has not done any favours at all, and the favour field collapses." - Terry Pratchett.

    #2
    I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.
    The whole post is a good point, but first off I'd like to address this last part: Do you mean in a "Oh, I don't want to disagree with the guys that run this place on the podcast" way or a "Please don't rip me apart general Gateworld population for disagreeing with the podcast" or...? 'Cause if it's either of those two or something similar, just know that people are allowed to have opinions different than people in high positions.

    I think Young's mistakes and flaws as leader are evident, but damn it all if he's not the best for the job in my mind. I'd rather him than Wray (Simply because I doubt she has the control to handle things in a crisis and the military doesn't respect her) and Rush (Because seriously, he's basically as crazy as Young but in a "hey, as long as it benefits me!" way instead of Young's "whatever I can do to keep as many of us alive" way", barring a few exceptions on both sides).
    ~ When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take back the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that BURNS YOUR HOUSE DOWN! ~

    ~ Burning people! He says what we're all thinking! ~

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
      The whole post is a good point, but first off I'd like to address this last part: Do you mean in a "Oh, I don't want to disagree with the guys that run this place on the podcast" way or a "Please don't rip me apart general Gateworld population for disagreeing with the podcast" or...? 'Cause if it's either of those two or something similar, just know that people are allowed to have opinions different than people in high positions.
      I don't like to disagree with D+D because they consistently provide the viewpoint that I agree with the most, and often come up with ones that I haven't thought of. I suppose it's not technically that I hate to admit it, but that I don't like finding that I am on a different side in this arguement.
      "The laws of favours are amongst the most fundamental in the multiverse. The first law is: nobody asks for just one favour; the second request (after the granting of the first favour), prefaced by ‘and can I be really cheeky…?’ is the asking of the second favour. If the aforesaid second request is not granted, the second law ensures that the need for any gratitude for the first favour is nullified, and in accordance with the third law the favour giver has not done any favours at all, and the favour field collapses." - Terry Pratchett.

      Comment


        #4
        You'll have half the forums agreeing with you, and the other half...not so much.

        I, for one, am in reasonable agreement.

        Comment


          #5
          I want this on my money instead of "In God We Trust"
          Originally posted by aretood2
          Jelgate is right

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by bobsuncorp View Post
            I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.
            I don't listen to the podcast but yes, I'd have to agree that Young gets more than his fair share of the grief, more so on the forums than on the Destiny.

            Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.
            Every time I hear the "military dictator" thing I'm torn between cringing and swearing at my monitor. I think some things just get repeated for the sake of being repeated. With the existence these people on Destiny are living, decisions occasionally have to be made fast, with no screwing around. When you're being attacked, there's no time for a committee or for everyone to sit around and discuss your feelings. That comes after, when you are safe. And yes, if it really was a military dictatorship, even a fraction of the crap that has happened would be less likely to happen. Especially after "Divided".
            The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't.
            It's funny because despite all the caterwauling about Young not being fit for leadership, the entire ship definitely sees him as the leader in a way they would never see Wray or Rush (at this point I don't know which is worse) or the gods forbid, brainwashed Telford or even Kiva.

            What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.
            As a species, we're tribal, and that only deepens when we are essentially a hunter-gatherer society, which the Destiny is at this moment. If the Destiny is ever secure enough or has enough people to be self-sufficient and they don't face mortal danger every day, I can see that changing. All it took was a month on the Faith planet to show that, when not faced with threat, that the military steps back. This isn't the action of a dictatorship. They need leadership. They need a chief, a head man, and Young fulfils that at the moment.

            And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

            Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?
            When Wray was in a position of leadership, her hands were shaking within a day and she was manipulated by others. Maybe she's toughened up since then but is this really the time to test it. I think Wray works quite well when she works WITH Young, as what happened in the first part of Air, when Young stated that she knew these people and that he needed her to talk to them and keep things positive, and again in the Incursions, when they worked side by side regarding Kiva. Rush, in his conversation with Chloe after her father died, can definitely say the right things and I believe that he believes them.But he also says other things that lead me to believe that if Rush thought it would be a benefit for someone to sacrifice themself (or be sacrificed as the case may be) that he would do it. Wanting Young to round up the civilians on the Faith planet at gunpoint is a good example of Rush saying one thing - get rid of the military - and doing something else - wanting to use the military to round up the civilians. I strongly believe that Rush has some purpose for this in mind; it's just that I don;'t know what it is, so I don't trust it. Maybe no one on Destiny should either.

            I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.
            Spare me from perfect Because he's flawed doesn't make him any less heroic, in fact, in the Joseph Campbell sense, it makes him more of one. Despite what a gagillion comic books might have told us, heroes aren't perfect and every hero has blood on his hands and has done some dark things just to get to where he is. And yep, he yells a lot, he's volatile, but he's also probably used to dealing with military more often than civilians, especially in a state of war, which is a fair description of what they're in.
            Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

            I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.
            I agree that Young has definitely been right. There are personal failings (marooning Rush, impregnating TJ) that he regrets and that he would believe he's wrong on, but yes, his other decisions have, in the end, been proven right. Greer trusts Young to do the right thing. That might be hard sometimes, but it seems to me that a good deal of what's been presented on Destiny is about trust and I think the writers are setting things up this way to make people question that. Then when he's proven to be right, it's a "you should have trusted him" sort of moment. Young is earning OUR trust just as surely as he's earning the Destiny's trust.
            In Young I trust too.


            Originally posted by jelgate View Post
            I want this on my money instead of "In God We Trust"
            I'd be willing to pencil that in
            sigpic


            SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

            Comment


              #7
              It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by KEK
                It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.
                This basically reflects my sentiments. The problem is that for all the good decisions he makes, they tend to be small ones. When it comes to the really big ones that really count at the end of the day, Young comes up short. For the most part the crew has been rather forgiving of him with the exception of Rush who, seeing the situation in its entirety, realizes that Young has been very close to getting everyone killed a large number of times since 'Air'. That insight culminated in the events which lead to his marooning. Although, Young's incompetence has been somewhat mitigated since then since he is spending less time trying to crucify Rush for everything that goes wrong. At least then he has shown the fruits of some epiphany that making his decisions in a silo is not the way to go.

                For me that was sufficient character growth on his part that makes me think he isn't a completely lost cause as far as leadership goes. Ideally, I feel he should be walking the line he had somewhat been keeping to which balances his military experience with Rush's technical and practical mind and Wray's morality. It might not always come up with the ultimate answer but it's a damn sight better than what he was doing before.

                Granted, he had some shockers in the last two eps. showing some worst case scenarios to his decisions becoming reality which is a bit of regression. Like I said though, if he is able to survive this catastrophe, the ground work has already been laid from before in terms of rectifying his leadership style. Realistically one wouldn't expect him to get the hang of properly fusing Wray and Rush's inputs overnight, but like I said, he has shown enough I think to indicate that he isn't a complete lost cause. He just has to make sure he moves forward, not backward and attempt to keep showing confidence as difficult as that may be.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by KEK View Post
                  It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season. He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive. The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.
                  I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

                  Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

                  Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                    I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

                    Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

                    Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.
                    Strain does show and should show (it was a shame about Petraeus. Of all the things the guy is going to be fielding questions over and I see that one moment as being something a lot of people may question him on) and I agree that this is a reality check, Stargate wise.

                    I'm hoping to see a slightly different outcome than the two extremes you've painted however. I'm hoping that he gets the help he needs from his fellow survivors. Sure, Young needs to take the reins but the other survivors need to do their part and stop sabotaging his efforts. I'm really hoping that Wray will continue to work with him, or at least not undermine him. I don't see Wray as being an effective leader but I think that between the two of them, they may do a better job and that it may remove some of the strain off Young as well and give him whatever help he needs.
                    sigpic


                    SGU-RELATED FANART | IN YOUNG WE TRUST | FANDUMB

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
                      I disagree, I think a major plot point is that Young, a good leader has been under intense pressure and has been pushed to breaking point. Young is in many ways a reality check for characters in the Stargate franchise, he is a realistic portrayal of what will happen to an officer if they are placed under enough strain. Stargate’s military characters in the past have ridden the perfect train too much, the ones at the SGC never crack under pressure, never suffer from PTSD despite having seeing years of intense combat.

                      Look at General Petraeus who collapsed in a Senate hearing recently. Now compared to Hammond his job is easy, Hammond essentially was tasked with defending the entire earth for 7 years. Never saw him falter and it simply isn’t that realistic. People crack under pressure, not everyone but many do, especially from the strain of combat and command. Young is Stargate balancing the books as it were.

                      Now whether Young in season 2 pulls himself together remains to be see. I think it will go one of two ways, either we’ll get ruthless Young, realisinjg that he must act and that hesticancy was caused this mess in the first place or he will remain broken and there will be a significant power void left on the ship.
                      I wouldn't dispute that he wasn't a great leader in the past, only that he isn't any more. Why else would they have him turn down the job, or make constant references and examples of him not having the stomach for this, and being indecisive? I'm not saying he's a clueless "foxhole norman" type character, only that he's broken, and tired, and not fit to lead any more.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        I wouldn't dispute that he wasn't a great leader in the past, only that he isn't any more. Why else would they have him turn down the job, or make constant references and examples of him not having the stomach for this, and being indecisive? I'm not saying he's a clueless "foxhole norman" type character, only that he's broken, and tired, and not fit to lead any more.
                        The thing is I believe the possibility remains for Young to be a good leader. But it’s do or die time. 2 things could happen, if we rule out him being killed. He could pull himself together, realise his hesitancy has caused problems and take a much more ruthless approach. Or if he fails to take action, someone else will lead the counter attack against the LA, at which point he’s lost command anyway.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by bobsuncorp View Post
                          I feel that Young gets way too hard a time both on Destiny and on the forums and even (much as I hate to admit it) on the podcast.

                          Wray calls him a military dictator. Yes he is military, yes he is in command, that is not the same thing. When the civilians in Faith said they wanted to leave the ship, he let them. If he had truly been a military dictator he would have done what Rush suggested and rounded them up at gunpoint. He wouldn't be watching the civilians through the kino talking about how unhappy they are with him he would have had them rounded up and imprisoned at least.

                          The civilians are unhappy with him because he is in charge. They see him as the focus of their unhappiness, everything that goes wrong, the reason they are lost, alone and in danger is HIS fault when anyone who looks at the situation logically has to see that it isn't. Civilians (at least those from a democratic societies like in the west) don't like to live in an autocratic society because unless we make the choice to give up our democratic rights to be part of the military it makes us feel vulnerable and out of control. This impulse is ingrained in us our whole lives by the example of "reigns of terror" and all the other nasty things that other autocratic societies have done and suffered and how they have ultimately failed.

                          What everybody forgets though is that if the autocrat is a good man (and I haven't heard any of Young's dissenters call him bad or evil) and if there is an emergency, temporary situation comprising of a very small society (less than 100 people) then autocracy is the only way to go. Civilisations always begin that way after all, and the fact that they survive long enough to change is proof of how effective they are.

                          The problem occurs when the power is inherited, and instead of being given to the one who can do it is given to the son of the one who can do it (did you know that the Roman Emperor Nero was the son of a much loved and respected general? His is an extreme example). Or when the society grows so large and the civilians vastly outnumber the military and so they are not represented.

                          This is where BSG and SGU are different. BSG had a huge civilian population and so required a democratic system. There are less than 80 people on Destiny, at least a 3rd of them military, in a position where one person must be in charge - there is no time to vote on all decisons.

                          And who else wants command? Rush (the guy who is truly to blame for stranding them all on Destiny) or Wray (who was so bad at her job that she got stuck in the back end of nowhere).

                          Does anyone really think that Wray would be better at running the ship than Young? Or that Rush would put the welfare of the crew above his thirst for knowledge and exploration?

                          I will admit that Young is not perfect. He clearly has some issues, whether from PTSD from losing those 37 people under his command or from the subsequent lack of confidence in himself is not clear. But he stepped up. He has the experience to save lives and if he has difficulty treating the civilians as civilians rather than soldiers (he does yell a lot) he obviously does not value their lives any less. On several occaisions he has been willing to sacrifice himself for those under him, and not just those in uniform.

                          The way I see it, Young has made 3 mistakes. He slept with a subordinate officer, he balked at sacrificing Rush (as he saw it - if he had known it was Telford I think he would have done it with the knowledge that Telford had volunteered to endanger himself when he joined the airforce) and he marooned Rush. The thing with Rush though I even can explain - the guy pretty much told him "I am never going to stop trying to undermine/kill you". As I say the safety of the crew requires that one person be in command and anyone who goes against that is endangering everyone. That is after all what mutiny IS and why it is so harshly punished. I have always seen Young like the Captain of an old sailing ship. These guys would be referred to as "Master After God" because of the power they had, and needed. They were out of touch with their superiors for months at least with hundred(s) of people to look after and the need to survive all sorts of things, including enemy action.

                          Finally, if we discount the 3 mistakes I mention, EVERY decision Young has made has turned out to be right. Everyone was howling that Young was guilty of torture and murder when he spaced Telford, and yet he gained an ally and destroyed an enemy in one go.

                          I firmly believe that in giving up control of Destiny to LA he has them right where he wants them. He appears to have lost, and people are clamouring for his replacement, but have faith. He has an ace up his sleeve. Greer has the right attitude. In Young we trust.
                          Crosses right hand over heart reverently .

                          In Young we trust.

                          So ...say we all.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by KEK View Post
                            It's mind boggling to me that people are still defending him as a good leader. I think the writers have made it fairly obvious that he's a poor leader, it's like been like, uh, a major plot point of the entire first season.
                            I agree that it has been a major plot point, but that doesn't make it something we should take as gospel. I think the writers are creating an arc for his character, using the crew's feelings to portray a lack of confidence makes the viewer question his competence, and thus makes his "comeback" even more of an achievement. How many people honestly thought he had gone off the deep end when he put Telford through the wringer, yet he turned out to know something we didn't, and turned out to be right. It is an excellent storytelling device, and redemption of our heroes is always good to see, but they have to fall before they can get up. It just seems to me that no sooner does he prove himself than he is being ragged on for his next "mistake".

                            Originally posted by KEK View Post
                            He doesn't have the stomach for this, that's why he turned the command down in the first place, he makes poor decisions and the crew are losing confidence in him rapidly, and worst of all for a leader - he's indecisive.
                            For a military commander, questioning your own competence can be as dangerous as the lack of competence. The difference is that sometimes an emergency situation can force said commander to put their feelings aside, and because the skill set still exists, they can shoot from bad to excellent very quickly. Young turned the Destiny command down because as he said to O'Neill "I don't think it's still in me, Sir". In those circumstances sometimes it takes someone else to recognise the talent and convince the other of their competence. O'Neill believed in Young and still does.

                            Indecisive? One time he hesitated for a few seconds (and be honest if he had pushed the button straight away it would have taken 60 seconds to evacuate the gateroom and it took 5 seconds for the LA members to put on breathing apparatus and get the door openers in place) and now he is not fit for command?

                            Originally posted by KEK View Post
                            The final scene to me just shows that he's given up, he's exhausted and he's failed, he's accepted his fate and wants to retain what little dignity he can by not getting on his knees. I don't see how he can recover.
                            See I see something else, I see him about to put his plan into action. Again I go back to the ending where he was torturing Telford. The end of the episode ocurred before we found out what his plan was. That has happened again, its just we have to wait months instead of days before we find out what it is and that he didn't deserve the blame after all.
                            "The laws of favours are amongst the most fundamental in the multiverse. The first law is: nobody asks for just one favour; the second request (after the granting of the first favour), prefaced by ‘and can I be really cheeky…?’ is the asking of the second favour. If the aforesaid second request is not granted, the second law ensures that the need for any gratitude for the first favour is nullified, and in accordance with the third law the favour giver has not done any favours at all, and the favour field collapses." - Terry Pratchett.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tuvok View Post

                              So ...say we all.
                              So Say We All.

                              so say we all.

                              SO SAY WE ALL

                              So Say We All

                              SO SAY WE ALL!

                              SO SAY WE ALL

                              SO SAY WE ALL!

                              SO SAY WE ALL

                              SO SAY WE ALL!!

                              SO SAY WE ALL!!
                              "The laws of favours are amongst the most fundamental in the multiverse. The first law is: nobody asks for just one favour; the second request (after the granting of the first favour), prefaced by ‘and can I be really cheeky…?’ is the asking of the second favour. If the aforesaid second request is not granted, the second law ensures that the need for any gratitude for the first favour is nullified, and in accordance with the third law the favour giver has not done any favours at all, and the favour field collapses." - Terry Pratchett.

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