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    The Greater Good

    Okay, so, we have Young simultaneously torturing Telford (in Rush's body) while the new villain does the same to Rush. By the end of the show, he's trying to suffocate him. The newly found adherence to Rush's moral code aside, Young seems to be repeating the same kind of actions that cast him in such a negative light in "Justice." Granted, there IS a greater good to fight for here. And granted that Rush might agree, if not for the fact that he's being forced to betray Destiny while Young is getting revenge for what was done to Icarus base?

    Does gambling with the lives of the eighty crew members, including his own unborn child, really justify the means to the end here? Does torturing a man, and in the process harming and possibly killing another man who placed his trust in you unflinchingly (this episode, at least) really help the people who died in the attack of the base? I'd say closing up a leak in the SGC is vital, but Young had already accomplished that by the end of the episode.

    And if your answer to all of this is "Yes, Young is right," then, how is it that Rush is wrong for using the exact same sort of reasoning to gamble with the lives of the group that went through the stargate? Or are both right? How far is going to be too far?
    Last edited by Daro; 21 May 2010, 08:53 PM.

    #2
    He was wrong. As soon as Telford admitted he was the spy and made his speech, it was quite obvious that there was nothing to be gained, they should have disconnected him and let the LA deal with him.

    Perfecto!

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      #3
      Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
      He was wrong. As soon as Telford admitted he was the spy and made his speech, it was quite obvious that there was nothing to be gained, they should have disconnected him and let the LA deal with him.
      But that would leave Destiny completely open to invasion. Without the coordinates of the planet, Earth can't attack and prevent them from dialing in. And with the limited amount of soldiers and ammunition the crew has, they'd eventually be overrun and the ship would be lost.
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        #4
        Originally posted by s09119 View Post
        But that would leave Destiny completely open to invasion. Without the coordinates of the planet, Earth can't attack and prevent them from dialing in. And with the limited amount of soldiers and ammunition the crew has, they'd eventually be overrun and the ship would be lost.
        and the LA doesn't know how to use the ship and what if the smurfs return?
        https://twitter.com/#!/Solar_wind84

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          #5
          Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
          He was wrong. As soon as Telford admitted he was the spy and made his speech, it was quite obvious that there was nothing to be gained, they should have disconnected him and let the LA deal with him.
          I agree without Rush the Alliance is stuck in the Milky way. Is actually Young's actions that lead to the season finale cliffhanger because with Rush they effectively manage to get to the Destiny with the second Icarus gate.
          .
          The world hath known no greater love than this, to give one's life for his friends. John 15:34

          The banning of images in SIGs suck.

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            #6
            Young is right because the Destiny is in clear danger because of what the Lucian Alliance know due to Telford, and now Rush. The safety of the ship and it's crew supercede any of Young's personal beliefs, Rush's life comes second. If Young can get the location of the LA from Telford they can save Rush and stop the LA from threatning the Destiny. Young doesn't have the time for a nice interrogation and he doesn't have the chemicals to drug him, the only thing Young had was appealing to Telfords honor, that didn't work which left physical force the only option left.

            Kiva is wrong because she has access to drugs, she has the time for a long interrogation, and her people are in no immediate danger. She just uses torture because she finds it quicker and more effective, and judging by how long it took Rush to break she was sadly right.
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              #7
              Originally posted by Pharaoh Atem View Post
              and the LA doesn't know how to use the ship and what if the smurfs return?
              We don't know how to use the ship, either xD

              That's not the point though. Their intentions aside, we know they're going to try and take the ship. To prevent that, Young needs to know where they're based out of so Earth can stop them.
              Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!
              Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"

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                #8
                What the alternative? Just let Telford rot and let the Lucian Alliance further infiltrated Earth and cause problems
                Originally posted by aretood2
                Jelgate is right

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by s09119 View Post
                  But that would leave Destiny completely open to invasion. Without the coordinates of the planet, Earth can't attack and prevent them from dialing in. And with the limited amount of soldiers and ammunition the crew has, they'd eventually be overrun and the ship would be lost.
                  They can't get there without Rush. But even if Young didn't know that, you can't torture people. I mean IRL the whole water boarding thing happened and proponents said, "well they're terrorists, they'd do worse to you" etc, but that's supposed to be what separates the good guys from the bad guys. IRL or in tv.

                  It's really interesting how this show has had its two lead protagonists venture very far into villain territory at different stages. Definiyely part of what makes the show so good, imo.

                  Perfecto!

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Daro View Post
                    Okay, so, we have Young simultaneously torturing Telford (in Rush's body) while the new villain does the same to Rush.
                    How was he "torturing" him? The only reason any physical interaction occurred between them was because Telford started a fight.

                    Originally posted by Daro View Post
                    By the end of the show, he's trying to suffocate him. The newly found adherence to Rush's moral code aside, Young seems to be repeating the same kind of actions that cast him in such a negative light in "Justice." Granted, there IS a greater good to fight for here. And granted that Rush might agree, if not for the fact that he's being forced to betray Destiny while Young is getting revenge for what was done to him.

                    Does gambling with the lives of the eighty crew members, including his own unboard child, really justify the means to the end here? Does torturing a man, and in the process harming and possibly killing another man who placed his trust in you unflinchingly (this episode, at least) really help the people who died in the attack of the base? I'd say closing up a leak in the SGC is vital, but Young had already accomplished that by the end of the episode.
                    Releasing Telford would have been gambling with the lives of the crew members. I think it seems clear to both Young and O'Neill that the Lucian Alliance are up to something relating to the Destiny. They need to find out what that is and the only way to do that is to get it out of Telford. Not to mention there's no evidence that Telford is the only leak in Homeworld Security. If he isn't then releasing him without finding anything else out leaves you with no way to identify any further leaks.

                    Originally posted by Daro View Post
                    And if your answer to all of this is "Yes, Young is right," then, how is it that Rush is wrong for using the exact same sort of reasoning to gamble with the lives of the group that went through the stargate? Or are both right? How far is going to be too far?
                    I think they're completely different scenarios tbh. Rush did what he did because he couldn't stand to lose the chance to unlock the ninth chevron, it was entirely self-serving and stranded everyone on the Destiny. Young is doing what he's doing in order to protect both the people under his command but potentially people back on Earth.

                    Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
                    He was wrong. As soon as Telford admitted he was the spy and made his speech, it was quite obvious that there was nothing to be gained, they should have disconnected him and let the LA deal with him.
                    How is it quite obvious there's nothing more to be gained?

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
                      They can't get there without Rush. But even if Young didn't know that, you can't torture people. I mean IRL the whole water boarding thing happened and proponents said, "well they're terrorists, they'd do worse to you" etc, but that's supposed to be what separates the good guys from the bad guys. IRL or in tv.

                      It's really interesting how this show has had its two lead protagonists venture very far into villain territory at different stages. Definiyely part of what makes the show so good, imo.
                      They'll get there eventually, I'm sure. If we could do it, there's a good chance they could, too. They have everything all set up, and with the proper power source, to boot. With or without Rush, they're a threat that needs to be neutralized.
                      Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!
                      Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Krazeh View Post
                        How is it quite obvious there's nothing more to be gained?
                        It was obvious he wasn't going to give them the planet's adress.

                        Perfecto!

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by RJLCyberPunk View Post
                          I agree without Rush the Alliance is stuck in the Milky way. Is actually Young's actions that lead to the season finale cliffhanger because with Rush they effectively manage to get to the Destiny with the second Icarus gate.
                          .
                          Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
                          They can't get there without Rush.
                          We have no evidence of that. On the contrary it appeared the Lucian Alliance were making fair progress towards managing to connect to the Destiny. Capturing Rush only sped up their timetable, they would have got there in the end tho without him.

                          Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
                          It was obvious he wasn't going to give them the planet's adress.
                          I disagree, I don't think that could be taken as an obvious point. And to be honest if all interrogations ended when it appeared "obvious" that the person in question wasn't going to say anything then they'd all end fairly soon and with little useful info gained.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Krazeh View Post
                            I disagree, I don't think that could be taken as an obvious point. And to be honest if all interrogations ended when it appeared "obvious" that the person in question wasn't going to say anything then they'd all end fairly soon and with little useful info gained.
                            Either way, venting the room's atmosphere is certainly torture, and torture is certainly wrong no matter the circumstance.

                            Perfecto!

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Major_Griff View Post
                              Either way, venting the room's atmosphere is certainly torture, and torture is certainly wrong no matter the circumstance.
                              Even if torturing one man yields information that saves the lives of millions?
                              Click the banner or episode links to visit the virtual continuations of Stargate!
                              Previous Episode: 11x03 "Shore Leave" | Previous Episode: 6x04 "Nightfall" | Now Airing: 3x06 "Eldest"

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