Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

[JackNapper]

TPTB have state that Matt is the 11th Doctor in mini-docs.

I think regens have to be complete transformation and that they are conscious choice. I'm sure there may be some explanation like the process must go to completion or something.

As for Time Lords dying and regenerating over and over that has to do with the time lock. They are forever trapped within a single point or small period or something. Just like Capt Jack can't die because he's "fixed".

[SeaBee]

Here's a little question for clouding the issue with.

In 1965 and 1966 two Doctor Who movies were released, both involving the Daleks, in which The Doctor was played by Peter Cushing. Several others were planned but never made, and his character also appeared in several comics and books, the latter used to reconcile the film continuity with that of the series.

Does he count as a Dr. in his own right? If he does he makes the latest reincarnation the 12th.

And to add further confusion the Daleks portrayed in the poster advertising the first film were used as the basis for the latest version of them.

[SaberBlade]

Cushing is just a bigger named actor to play First for movies. He's no more an official Doctor than Richard E. Grant, who voiced/looked like the character for BBC webisodes a few years back.

[DigiFluid]

Peter Cushing doesn't count as an official Doctor. Those movies are adaptations of the First Doctor stories "The Daleks" & "The Dalek Invasion of Earth".

It's a little like the James Bond movie "Never Say Never Again". It's re-adaptation of "Thunderball" and not counted as part of the franchise proper.

[Billz]

Here's a little question for clouding the issue with.

In 1965 and 1966 two Doctor Who movies were released, both involving the Daleks, in which The Doctor was played by Peter Cushing. Several others were planned but never made, and his character also appeared in several comics and books, the latter used to reconcile the film continuity with that of the series.

Does he count as a Dr. in his own right? If he does he makes the latest reincarnation the 12th.

And to add further confusion the Daleks portrayed in the poster advertising the first film were used as the basis for the latest version of them.

Seeing as how Peter Cushing's Doctor was actually portrayed as a human scientist (his character name was actually Dr Who ), he doesn't count as an official "regeneration". Those movies are fun though.

A full regeneration only counts when the physical body is changed due to cell's reorganizing themselves. Since the 10th Doctor's first regeneration was only to heal himself and then syphoned off into 'Handy', it doesn't count as a full regeneration.

Ergo, Matt Smith is the 11th Doctor. Not the 12th Doctor.

Case closed. Thanks for playing.

[Clem]

Technically speaking, the "Journey's End" regeneration did create new life - the Human Doctor. It did it's job, just not in the traditional way. Personally, i think it should count. Purely numerically, Ten is the Tennant Doctor, Eleven is the Tennant Human Doctor, Twelve is Smith. Of course that doesn't stop Smith calling himself the Eleventh incarnation, because he is. Confusing i know, but it's all technicalities.

You know, i think it would be rather interesting if Smith's Doctor was faced with the fact he could be on his last regeneration. Because we all know what happens then - The Valeyard.

Maybe the Dream Lord is the beginning of that persona...

[Lairston]

Didn't they say that they were going to forget about the 13 regenerations? I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

[Billz]

Didn't they say that they were going to forget about the 13 regenerations? I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere.

I think I remember hearing something about that actually, but more along the lines of altering the regeneration rule slightly instead of forgetting about entirely.

Technically, it could be done seeing as how the Doctor is the last "known" Time Lord, meaning that there is no other of the species (High Council or Lord President) around to enforce the 13 lives rule, allowing the Doctor to have as many more lives as he wants, given that he works out to add more lives aside from the canon 2 that he has remaining (2 and a half lives if you count the Valeyard ).

[Ekras]

I think I remember hearing something about that actually, but more along the lines of altering the regeneration rule slightly instead of forgetting about entirely.

Technically, it could be done seeing as how the Doctor is the last "known" Time Lord, meaning that there is no other of the species (High Council or Lord President) around to enforce the 13 lives rule, allowing the Doctor to have as many more lives as he wants, given that he works out to add more lives aside from the canon 2 that he has remaining (2 and a half lives if you count the Valeyard ).

The Valeyard can't happen because of the Time War. My guess is the Dream Lord is the altered-timeline version of him.

[Puddle-Jumper]

But it has never been confirmed or denied that this is the case.

It has been confirmed, several times
The BBC call him the 11th doctor, including writers and producers.. his first episode was called the 11th hour, and I think in one episode he was referred to as the 11th doctor.

[vp1398]

And also, in 'The Lodger' when he played football, he chose number eleven.

[Billz]

Hell, he even called himself eleventh in "The Lodger" aswell. What more proof do you need?

[SaberBlade]

He's definitely 11. The 11th regeneration (instead of 10th, since the 10th regeneration was used on the Metracrisis Doctor) and the 11th unique persona the Doctor has taken.

He's like a 12th Doctor because he's only got one regeneration left then will be unable to do it again without some major rewrites or MacGuffin plot device designed to give him more.

[Pharaoh Atem]

Hell, he even called himself eleventh in "The Lodger" aswell. What more proof do you need?

thank you!!!!

[Nth Chevron]

Bear in mind there is a *possible* connection between the Doctor and the Other, who along with Rassilon and Omega constructed Time-Lord society to what it was when the Time-War began.

Omega is trapped in the AM universe, Rassilon is back in the Time-War - the Other hasnt been seen/known/heard for god knows how long.

I think it might get revisited, but i dont see how with the Time-War still ongoing.

Another theory been drawn is the Doctor and the Red Guardian of Justice.

N.C

[katatonos]

Even if he is the 12th Doctor, he said 12 because he though that 13 doctors was a funny number. There is no merit to it beyond that. The Doctor lies remember.

[cosmichobo]

Ok, so when I saw the episode in question, yes, I was appalled at first (wasting a regen), but the way I took the Doctor's explanation/excuse was, before he actually reached the point of regeneration, he stopped it (siphoning it off), and, as such, he did not "regenerate"... and thus, did not use one of his actual regenerations...

I am assuming this is how the writers will deal with it... Unless one of them thinks up a storyline revolving around this very dilemma...

[Crazedwraith]

Well since he specifically said he used up all the energies of a regeneration and siphoned them off into his hand. Then they're obviously not in his body anymore and he can't use them again. So yes, strictly speaking I think he used up a regeneration there.

In my mind, technically, david tennant was the tenth and eleventh doctors. But since he didn't change bodies, the Doctor from his own perspective doesn't see it that way.

Of course, they're just going to handwave or outright ignore the regeneration limit when they get there anyway, so it doesn't really make much difference. And wouldn't blame them if they never brought up Journey's End existence every again. I'd very much like to be able to forget it.

[cosmichobo]

If the writers want a plotline to follow for a season... rather than the convoluted rubbish they've done this and last year, they could do it revolving around the Doctor knowing he's dying... his end is nigh... no more regenerations... but then finds a potential answer... and has to go on something of a quest to achieve it...

To me, the regen limit has always been a physical limit, not something "imposed", but simply a part of the regenerative process... So, the Time Lord's demise doesn't change the limitation...

[FennerMachine]

Didn't Rassilon impose the regeneration limit millennia ago?
It is supposed to be a limit of the symbiotic nuclei that enables activation of TT capsules & regeneration.