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Thread: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

  1. #1
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    This has actually bugged me ever since i saw 'The Journey's End' the first time but I only recently bothered thinking about it in-depth.

    Back in 'The Journey's End' when The Doctor is shot by a Dalek he regenerates but instead of changing his form he uses the energy to repair his body then directs the excess energy into his hand so he doesn't need to change.

    The exact quote he explains it with:
    'I used the regeneration energy to heal myself but as soon as that was done, I didn't need to change, I didn't want to, why would I? Look at me. *adjusts tie* So to stop the energy going all the way I siphoned off the rest into a handy biomatching receptical, namely my hand, my hand there, my handy spare hand.'

    It was first stated in The Deadly Assassin that a Time Lord can regenerate twelve times before dying (thirteen incarnations in all). - "The Deadly Assassin". Robert Holmes, David Maloney. Season 14. British Broadcasting Corporation. 1976.

    Does this mean that the Doctor is infact on his 12th incarnation?
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  2. #2
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    It's a common point of discussion, but general consensus is no. Matt Smith is the Eleventh Doctor.

  3. #3
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    But it has never been confirmed or denied that this is the case.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    I do have to admit i would like it to be the case that it didn't count as a regeneration.
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    I always hated that saying...

  5. #5
    Beyond Loch Ness Aurora24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    I don't think it counts as a regeneration, because the Doctor didn't actually change. He was able to control the energy and stop himself from actually dying and changing somehow by siphoning off the excess energy. I'm not sure exactly how that works. Has anything like that been done before? I've only seen up the Tom Baker Doctor in terms of Classic Who, as well as all of the new series'. My thoughts are that as long as the same actor is playing the Doctor it doesn't count as regenerating.


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  6. #6
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Ten was shot, fatally wounded and the regeneration took place. It doesn't matter than he never transformed, he still regenerated. Since he never transformed, he's still Ten and Matt is still Eleven because that's what matters, the actual transformation.

    Ten using a regeneration to heal himself and then storing the energy in his old hand doesn't make him Eleven, it keeps him Ten but wastes a regeneration so what Doctor he is has nothing to do with what number regeneration took place. If that were the case, the First Doctor would just be "The Doctor", the Second Doctor would be 1st, Third Doctor would be 2nd, Fourth Doctor would be 3rd and so on. In fact, if it were the case, Matt would still be number 11 because it was the 11th regeneration used.

    It does screw things up, because 12 regenerations mean 13 Doctors. Since 10th used up a regeneration to heal himself then dumped the rest of the energy, he did use up one of those regenerations so the next Doctor will be the last unless he's given more regenerations (which can happen, just look at the Master but it took the Time Lords to do it, so doubtful it will). Should Eleven copy what Ten did, then he'll be the last.

    It could have been an easy fix. If the Doctor ever needed to regenerate he could have used the energy stored in the hand to give himself back that regeneration but since it created "DonnaDoctor" (since Donna herself was the DoctorDonna), unless they bring back David Tennant, fatally wound him and use the regeneration to channel energy into Eleven (or a future Doctor) while keeping enough to heal himself.

    But when all is said and done, Matt is the Eleventh Doctor because he is the 11th incarnation. He is also the 11th regeneration (instead of 10th since David's Doctor used it to heal himself in Journeys End) and the next Doctor will be the last without some sort of drastic action.



  7. #7
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    If that were the case, the First Doctor would just be "The Doctor", the Second Doctor would be 1st, Third Doctor would be 2nd, Fourth Doctor would be 3rd and so on.
    That makes zero sense, Saber.

  8. #8
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Matt is definitely the 11 Doctor, but I do kinda think that technically he is the 12th. What does that mean? I have no idea.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    I'd bet the writes don't count it.. it'd just speed up the time in which they have write themselves out of the 12th regeneration limit

  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant Rodney_Mckay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    To agree with a post above, Ten did use up a regenertion, but only used it to repair his body. But it doesn't make Matt Smith the 12th Doctor as Ten was still.... Ten, afterwards.

  11. #11
    Colonel nx01a's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    There will be 13 Doctors and 12 regenerations and that hand almost-regeneration thing will be forgotten.
    I see it as 10 drawing on energies that would normally go to power the regeneration process but diverting them elsewhere without actually going through the regeneration process. Regeneration may be the change process itself, not the energy used to fuel it.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    You know I anticipate that we'll end up seeing more than just 13 Doctors. At least I hope so. There are oh so many reasons why they could expand the cycle given how many times it has happend to the Master. Granted I know it takes some of the poetry out of his life but there are always other ways to end the series. Not that I think it should ever be ended. Time and space are limitless so we've only just scratched the surface of potential stories.
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  13. #13
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    That makes zero sense, Saber.
    The guy who created thread wants to know if Matt Smith is 12th because 10th used two regenerations, so essentially David Tennant was the 10th (first regeneration that created him) and 11th Doctor (second regeneration that just healed him).

    What I am trying to point out is, if this were the case, then all Doctors would be based on which regeneration number was used. So William Hartnell wouldn't be the First Doctor, the First Doctor would be Patrick Troughton since he was the first regenerated Doctor. So the Second Doctor would be the First, the Third Doctor would be the Second, Fourth Doctor would be the third and so on.

    However it doesn't work like this, and it requires the person to transform to become a new number, but it doesn't change the fact that 10th used up a regeneration and there is only one regeneration left (until they write in a way for him to get more). Just because he didn't allow it to change him doesn't make it any less of a regeneration used before. So I'd expect them to cover his remaining regenerations soon, because it can't be ignored, they could have ignored the 8th but they didn't, so I doubt they'd ignore this.



  14. #14
    Major General Pharaoh Atem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    matt smith = Eleventh Doctor.

  15. #15
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    The guy who created thread wants to know if Matt Smith is 12th because 10th used two regenerations, so essentially David Tennant was the 10th (first regeneration that created him) and 11th Doctor (second regeneration that just healed him).

    What I am trying to point out is, if this were the case, then all Doctors would be based on which regeneration number was used. So William Hartnell wouldn't be the First Doctor, the First Doctor would be Patrick Troughton since he was the first regenerated Doctor. So the Second Doctor would be the First, the Third Doctor would be the Second, Fourth Doctor would be the third and so on.
    That still doesn't make any sense.... by the OP's logic:

    First Doctor = William Hartnell
    Second Doctor = Patrick Troughton
    Third Doctor = Jon Pertwee
    Fourth Doctor = Tom Baker
    Fifth Doctor = Peter Davison
    Sixth Doctor = Colin Baker
    Seventh Doctor = Sylvester McCoy
    Eighth Doctor = Paul McGann
    Ninth Doctor = Chris Eccleston
    Tenth Doctor = David Tennant
    Eleventh Doctor = David Tennant
    Twelfth Doctor = Matt Smith

    The first incarnation does not disqualify him from having a numerical prefix.

  16. #16
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    That still doesn't make any sense.... by the OP's logic:

    First Doctor = William Hartnell
    Second Doctor = Patrick Troughton
    Third Doctor = Jon Pertwee
    Fourth Doctor = Tom Baker
    Fifth Doctor = Peter Davison
    Sixth Doctor = Colin Baker
    Seventh Doctor = Sylvester McCoy
    Eighth Doctor = Paul McGann
    Ninth Doctor = Chris Eccleston
    Tenth Doctor = David Tennant
    Eleventh Doctor = David Tennant
    Twelfth Doctor = Matt Smith

    The first incarnation does not disqualify him from having a numerical prefix.
    It making no sense was my point. The thing that I was trying to point out, is if you base the numbers strictly on regenerations, the you end up starting to number the Doctors with Troughton because he was the first regeneration and Matt Smith still ends up as Eleventh.

    It just has to be accepted that RTD wasted a regeneration on Tennant during 'Journeys End', and there is only one left. It has to be addressed unless they work in a new story to give him more or work out a way to give him more from past events (like the complete psychic power of humanity being used to restore the Doctor and giving him a fresh set of 12). People would want to shrug it off as "oh, he never fully transformed so it doesn't count" and since even the first episode of the new season is called 'The Eleventh Doctor' it does show you need to transform fully to go up a number.



  17. #17
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaberBlade View Post
    It making no sense was my point. The thing that I was trying to point out, is if you base the numbers strictly on regenerations, the you end up starting to number the Doctors with Troughton because he was the first regeneration and Matt Smith still ends up as Eleventh.

    It just has to be accepted that RTD wasted a regeneration on Tennant during 'Journeys End', and there is only one left. It has to be addressed unless they work in a new story to give him more or work out a way to give him more from past events (like the complete psychic power of humanity being used to restore the Doctor and giving him a fresh set of 12). People would want to shrug it off as "oh, he never fully transformed so it doesn't count" and since even the first episode of the new season is called 'The Eleventh Doctor' it does show you need to transform fully to go up a number.
    For starters, no it doesn't. All you have to do is shrug it off for it not being a real regeneration, as it seems everyone (including the BBC) has. Second, the first episode of the new series is The Eleventh Hour, not The Eleventh Doctor.

  18. #18
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    I read Eleventh Doctor on TV, kid you not, but still, he's referred to as the Eleventh Doctor by the BBC so regardless of Tennant's regeneration history.

    As for Tennant's second regeneration, it can't just be shrugged off, because it turns into an easily abused "oh lets kill him off with a fake regeneration" event. He regenerated, the only difference was he had somewhere to put the excess energy before it changed anything more than his health condition. They can decide to completely ignore for now, but eventually they will have to explain it because he used 1 of the 12. The only real difference is they have to come up with an explanation for for more regenerations after Twelfth inside of Thirteenth. People would rather say "oh no, it doesn't sound" because it means we are left with two more regenerations, instead of one.



  19. #19
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    Honestly I think the 'dumping energy into the hand' explanation more than covers it.

    Consider the Master's 13th incarnation (the Peter Pratt/Geoffrey Beavers burnt-out one). In his final life, his physical being is charred and burned out, not withered out like an old man.

    The way I take that is that regeneration is not a finite number of things to be used up, but rather more akin to a 13oz glass. Once it's filled up, it won't take anymore and that'll be the end. But rather than use up another 1oz of that space, Ten dumped that extra 1oz into another glass.

    Thus he is Ten, not Ten/Eleven; and Matt Smith is Eleven, not Twelve.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Matt Smith, Actually the 12th Doctor?

    The Doctor did fight in the time war, and I think the time lords gave their soldiers more regenerations (to make them more effective in combat or something).

    That one Time Lady in "The End of Time pt 2" basically said that their people were forced to die, then regenerate only to die again, in an infinite cycle. That could mean that the Time Lords were granted unlimited regenerations, or at least more than the normal amount during the Time War.

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