The Civilian Coup'd'ta was wholly unjustified.

[meo3000]

Great post OP!

Trying to refute this argument is like throwing away 15 years of SGC protocoles out the window. We cant do that just because we feel an urge to sympathize with the civilians.

[jelgate]

Also lets not forget Wray was complicit in the plot to frame Young so she knows fine well he had just cause to deal with Rush yet now she claims his actions are the reason for the mutiny.

Thier is no proof that Wray knew about Rush framing Young for murder

[Sami_]

Thier is no proof that Wray knew about Rush framing Young for murder

Rush: The colonel is dangerous
Wray: We need to do something about that
Rush: I tried
Wray: I know

- Space

[jelgate]

Rush: The colonel is dangerous
Wray: We need to do something about that
Rush: I tried
Wray: I know

- Space

That is no clear indication that Wray know about the framing of Young. Its quite vague actually. For all we know maybe Rush meant the events on the planet

[Lahela]

That is no clear indication that Wray know about the framing of Young. Its quite vague actually. For all we know maybe Rush meant the events on the planet

Or Rush told her about things after he came back to ship.

[jelgate]

Or Rush told her about things after he came back to ship.

Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

[Lahela]

Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

Oh, I don't know. Perfect way to get her onside.

[Fridgefiend]

Its a possibility but I highly doubt it. It doesn't fit with Rush's character

I'd say that after the events on the planet a few people figured it out. Greer seemed to have a suspicion and I'd bet that Wray thinks she knows why Young left him there.

[jelgate]

Oh, I don't know. Perfect way to get her onside.

But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

[Lahela]

But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

That's true. I find her difficult to read, which I guess is the point. But if she does know, then she's certainly only heard one side of it, so...

[jelgate]

That's true. I find her difficult to read, which I guess is the point. But if she does know, then she's certainly only heard one side of it, so...

...so we go back to favoriter hobby of blaming Rush

[Lahela]

...so we go back to favoriter hobby of blaming Rush

What else would you do here?

[jelgate]

What else would you do here?

Tease you with countdowns

[Lahela]

Tease you with countdowns

Well yeah, there is that.

[Sami_]

But Wray doesn't sound like the kind of person who would go along if she knew Rush was just as gulity as Young in the Justice ordeal. Coupled on the way she says, "You shouldn't have left him on that planet." to me points that she wasn't completely complict on the truth of what was going on

I'm sure in Wray's eyes there is a big difference between framing someone (for reasons she agrees with) and murdering them.

Wray doesn't seem like a particularly moral character to me either, I'm not sure why you'd give her so much credit.

I'm pretty sure Wray knew during the events of Justice that Young would not have shot Spencer and that he was being framed and when Rush didn't come back from the mission with Young I think shes smart enough to put two and two together.

Sure we don't have a written confession that Wray knew but I think when you step back and just remember we're watching a tv show and don't try to second guess every little indication the writers give then its fairly obvious what conclusion you should come to.

[major davis]

Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

I totally agree. I feel exactly the same way. Great argument and great thread!

[FallenAngelII]

on Earth, the military is under civilian leadership, and Young is under THIER leadership. The chain of command goes to Earth, not someone who stages a coup on the Destiny

No... that's not the situation on the Destiny. Civilian leadership have granted Young command. He answers to them, but it's still him who commands the ship. The civilian leadership can only relieve him of his post should they choose to.

Not that I disagree about the attempted murder part, but for the sake of arguments: Treason is punishable by death in Camille's "Civilian dictated" societies.

Only during times of war in most civilized countries in the free world (such as Sweden). And what did Rush do that is tantamount to treason?

Also, if Young thought he was doing the right and legal thing, he wouldn't have lied about it.

[s09119]

Camille's argument was that the military was "refusing to submit to civilian leadership like free civilized nations".

There are several flaws with this argument:

1. The military ARE under civilian rule. They are United States Armed Forces personnel under the Constitution of the United States of America.

2. Destiny is not a nation or society. It is the evacuation site for a base run by the US military.

3. The Scientists and few civilians (with the exception of Camille) on Destiny are employees of the US government, many via the US Military, and under said nation's protection. This is the same situation as on the military research base that contacted Destiny to begin with, from which they evacuated.

4. Camille is a Civilian Oversight representative, not a Civilian leader like the Senator was, and thus has little actual authority.

5. None of the civilians have any qualification for any sort of actual leadership.

Camille's argument utilized a total distortion of reality to make a case for the organized military force on the ship to yield in subservience to a rag-tag group of civilian refugees.

This argument was unfounded, endangered the crew, and instigated a violent confrontation.

If they were on Earth or Icarus Base, you would probably be correct. But the gravity and extreme unpredictability of their situation negates your argument; the US government has no way to enforce whatever decisions it may make provided Colonel Young simply disagrees, and the same is true for the IOA with Wray. Thus establishing an independent governing body to oversee Destiny is the logical choice.

[An-Alteran]

An-Alteran,



Which is why Col. Young has been picked up and held pending Courts Martial for attacking Col. Telford? It may be true but it has serious practical limitations.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. That is a bit cliche, but it is reality.
Young, faults included, is the best they have. The next best are butter-bar lieutenants.

Until they get home in their own bodies its the only "society" they've got.

Which is true for any long range military operation. Changes nothing.
They are an isolated part of a larger society.

There are any number of very small subsitence level tribes around the world that aren't much larger than the Destiny evacuees that qualify as "societies".

They are not an isolated part of a larger national society. They are a tribe. Different cultural dynamic, fundamentally.

And? Most of these people aren't military and aren't subject to the UCMJ.

They are under the protection and payroll of the US Government, via the military.

They should be able to decide for themselves whats going to happen to them.

No they shouldn't. This is a military base of operations. Just as Icarus base was.
They are employees and refugees. They don't have that authority.
You have said nothing I haven't refuted in the opening post.

Wray, presumably, wouldn't be maintaining her authority with men and women with guns. If the other Civilians and military want her to step down from the leadership role I think she'll have to step down.

Irrelevant. I already defeated this argument in my OP.

So, only qualified people

Yes. Military base. None of the civilians have any leadership qualifications.
The Senator did, he was it.

Young is it.

as you choose not to define it

This is not an argument. Ad hominem. Nice try at snubbing though.

should have positions of authority and command in this very small society.

It is an isolated segment of a larger society under the Civilian authority of said Government.
You are using your conclusion (it is an actual independent society that should be under civilian rule) as a premise for your refuting argument.
That is circular reasoning.

Eli, no college degree and no military training, was handed a pistol and given charge of half the away team by Col. Young's nominal second in command.

That was a decision made by the nominal second in command. He had every authority to make it. Eli was the only one he could trust in his estimation.
You are free to disagree with the decision he had the authority to make.

You might say that exactly what will happen. I say, look you take what you've got some will step up some will not. That's what happens in these situations.

Employees =/= legitimate Civilian Government.

I do think she over stepped ignoring the biggest weapon the civilians have. The civilians possess the knowledge and skills that are allowing these people to survive. Rather than take drastic action they simply should have staged a work stoppage. If the military attempts to force them to work point out that the very reason the work stoppage is effective is why they can't kill someone to force them or others to work.

Yay! Then they all die.
Wonderful idea there. =)

The disrespect you have shown by your actions demonstrates no effort to actually give a real reply.

Young is dictator! His decision is final and it's the only one that matters. People can advise him, but in the end, his decision is the only one that matters.

Yeah, that is what a Colonel in the US Military is. That is his job description.
Your naiveté is palatable.

Colonel Young is the experienced ranking officer over everyone under his protection from the Icarus base evacuation. He was second in command of the mission. He is the only ranking military officer that got through the Stargate from the military base he was in charge over.

He is in charge. The Senator was his boss, but he died.

Also, hey, I'm pretty sure that U.S. Law states that murder is illegal. And he tried to commit that.

You are right. He was wrong. He knows that. Nothing anyone can do about that, including him.
He can't hand over authority to anyone else, he has to have it.

Don't forget that framing people for murder is illegal also.

Greer committed a few crimes himself on Icarus Base, but he's going unpunished.

They are not in a position to enact punishment.
They need him. Just like they need Rush. Just like they need Young.

Pistol-whipping a non-combattant who's just standing there is illegal, but I guess Young will let it slide for James for just that one time.

Mutineer = Combatant.
He was a combatant who refused to surrender when ordered and given the opportunity and stood up to Lt. James.

Why is everyone such wimps about getting punched? Geeze. Worse happens at High School.

It is not Civilian and they are not following anyone's law but Young's.

Your argument is baseless and irrational.

You didn't deserve to even be responded to since you ignored my argument that you were trying to respond to.

And what civilian would that be?

If you had actually read my argument in the opening post, you would have been able to answer that question yourself.

No... that's not the situation on the Destiny. Civilian leadership have granted Young command. He answers to them, but it's still him who commands the ship.

Yes... that is what a ship Captain does. That is what a military base commander does.

The civilian leadership can only relieve him of his post should they choose to.

Uh... yeah. They have not.

And what did Rush do that is tantamount to treason?

Mutinee maybe? Framing the ranking officer for murder to subvert his command, maybe?

Also, if Young thought he was doing the right and legal thing, he wouldn't have lied about it.

You are actually right there. He knew he was wrong.

If they were on Earth or Icarus Base, you would probably be correct. But the gravity and extreme unpredictability of their situation negates your argument; the US government has no way to enforce whatever decisions it may make provided Colonel Young simply disagrees, and the same is true for the IOA with Wray. Thus establishing an independent governing body to oversee Destiny is the logical choice.

The situation negates nothing. It is a military operation under military control, granted by their Civilian leadership in the US Government and overseen by an international coalition.

[s09119]

The situation negates nothing. It is a military operation under military control, granted by their Civilian leadership in the US Government and overseen by an international coalition.

You failed to address my point, though. Ultimately the only power on Destiny that matters is Col. Young, since he can decide to follow what Earth tells him to do or not without any consequence. Thus it really is a military dictatorship, and the civilians are completely justified.