Drones and Shields

[Thermi]

Why couldn't they fight off the hives then? If they had the capability to make unlimited quantities why'd they abandon the city instead of driving off hives and flying away? I'll concede they are good weapons and every one of our 304s needs 50 or 60 to deployed in case they get into real trouble but uberbeams (if we can keep them in action) are the way to go. The supply of drones is limited anyway and since they must be reserved for a true emergency they really aren't on the table to talk about with regards to standard weaponry.

On the other hand if you deployed a squandron of drones for use as reusable kinetic weapons against darts then these could be used as escort to protect tactical nukes from dart pilots and all of a sudden the war against the wraith becomes quite winnable.

If you remember rightly (first epp of Atlantis. The hologram room thing) the ancients could win every fight against the wraith in orbit, but there was a never ending stream of enemies. When they killed one another two would appear, and because of this the ancients decided to abandon the city because they saw no end to the war, because of the wraith's numbers

[thekillman]

hives require more drones than ha'tak.

also jack commanded the drones to hit critical systems.

APBW's are equally uber as Drones.

drones do not ignore all shields

[morrismike]

If you remember rightly (first epp of Atlantis. The hologram room thing) the ancients could win every fight against the wraith in orbit, but there was a never ending stream of enemies. When they killed one another two would appear, and because of this the ancients decided to abandon the city because they saw no end to the war, because of the wraith's numbers

People tend to rewrite their own history to put themselves in a better light.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

People tend to rewrite their own history to put themselves in a better light.

How exactly did the Ancients put themselves "in a better light" with the comment made by the hologram Melia?
The Ancients lost the war!
As far as that statement goes it's backed up by evidence seen throughout the show.

Everyone who's seen The Seed knows how the Wraith can make ships with ease.
The Wraith could place dozens, if not hundreds of Pathogen infected hosts on virtually every habitable planet in the Pegasus galaxy that the Ancients weren't inhabiting, come back in the time it takes to grow an army, do it all over again and have a fleet to hit the Ancients at every corner of the galaxy.
Even the best shields and weapons (I'm not implying the Ancients had these with their tech) in the Universe couldn't hold that off forever.
IMO it's amazing the Ancients lasted as long as they did.

[tinerin]

Everyone who's seen The Seed knows how the Wraith can make ships with ease.
The Wraith could place dozens, if not hundreds of Pathogen infected hosts on virtually every habitable planet in the Pegasus galaxy that the Ancients weren't inhabiting, come back in the time it takes to grow an army, do it all over again and have a fleet to hit the Ancients at every corner of the galaxy.
Even the best shields and weapons (I'm not implying the Ancients had these with their tech) in the Universe couldn't hold that off forever.
IMO it's amazing the Ancients lasted as long as they did.

One thing you're forgetting is that the Ancients were initially winning the war...It was because of the Ancients' arrogance and the Wraith's patience that the Wraith were eventually able to get enough ZPM's to power their cloning facility and that was the turning point in the war. and it's not like they could make an unlimited number of ships...at the time we arrived in Pegasus, there were only about 60 hive ships and there's nothing to indicate that any hives were lost since the Ancients left...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

One thing you're forgetting is that the Ancients were initially winning the war...It was because of the Ancients' arrogance and the Wraith's patience that the Wraith were eventually able to get enough ZPM's to power their cloning facility and that was the turning point in the war. and it's not like they could make an unlimited number of ships...at the time we arrived in Pegasus, there were only about 60 hive ships and there's nothing to indicate that any hives were lost since the Ancients left...

I'm not forgetting anything, I never said that the Ancients weren't winning the war before the Wraith turned it around.
Whether or not the Ancients were arrogant is a matter of opinion, although there's nothing that suggests they thought themselves to be better than they actually were, just that they worked with what they had, which would have been a limited number vessels.
I also never said the Wraith's numbers were unlimited, but the very mention that the Ancients saw no way to win the war and the fact that Hive's and Cruisers appear to be grown in such a simple way points towards them being able to easily replace any losses they would have incurred in battles with the Ancients.

I don't get the last point you've made, the fact that the Wraith have a certain number of Hives doesn't prove they haven't had any wars or battles in 10,000 years, we know there are technological societies in PG, since we know practically nothing about that history or very little about the Wraith Vs Ancients war means we can't fully judge the whole PG situation and have to just take canon on face value, the Ancients lost the war! they were only inhabiting Atlantis in the end after millions of years of placing stargates and human beings throughout the galaxy, then they face the Wraith, and a hundred years later it's just Atlantis (and probably a few Humans dotted here and there that replaced the numbers consumed by the Wraith), there's not a lot else to be said without a full detailed history from a little over 10,000 years ago being told.
The evidence we have at the moment doesn't really point to anything different than what Melia and Weir have both said though.

[Buba uognarf]

One thing you're forgetting is that the Ancients were initially winning the war...It was because of the Ancients' arrogance and the Wraith's patience that the Wraith were eventually able to get enough ZPM's to power their cloning facility and that was the turning point in the war. and it's not like they could make an unlimited number of ships...at the time we arrived in Pegasus, there were only about 60 hive ships and there's nothing to indicate that any hives were lost since the Ancients left...

The Asurans attacked the Wraith sometime in the 10,000 years after the Ancients left which I'm sure caused a lot of casulties.

The Ancients would have no reason to lie in the holographic recording either who were they trying to 'big themselves up to'?

[tinerin]

I also never said the Wraith's numbers were unlimited, but the very mention that the Ancients saw no way to win the war and the fact that Hive's and Cruisers appear to be grown in such a simple way points towards them being able to easily replace any losses they would have incurred in battles with the Ancients.

Well the fact that the Ancients were winning the war until the Wraith got the cloning facility running suggests that replacing Wraith ships isn't as easy as you make it seem...Also, we know that the pathogen eventually started stealing power from Atlantis (which had a ZPM) to increase its growth rate, so without a ZPM it could take a very long time to replace a ship...and if you want to "take canon on face value", all we know is that the pathogen originated from one of Michael's lab; it was never stated that that was the method that was used to build Wraith ships during the war with the Ancients...for all we know, building Wraith ships could have been a much slower and more complicated process back then...

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Well the fact that the Ancients were winning the war until the Wraith got the cloning facility running suggests that replacing Wraith ships isn't as easy as you make it seem...Also, we know that the pathogen eventually started stealing power from Atlantis (which had a ZPM) to increase its growth rate, so without a ZPM it could take a very long time to replace a ship...and if you want to "take canon on face value", all we know is that the pathogen originated from one of Michael's lab; it was never stated that that was the method that was used to build Wraith ships during the war with the Ancients...for all we know, building Wraith ships could have been a much slower and more complicated process back then...

The fact that the Ancients were winning does not in any way suggest the Wraith weren't able to replace their lost ships easily during the early half of the war, the Wraith ships are much less powerful than Ancient ones, they'd need high numbers to stay in the fight, for all we know the Ancients may have been able to construct more vessels, ZPMs and Drones faster at the beginning of the war, but as the Wraith gained more ground, with the Wraith taking out whatever production facilities the Ancients had the Ancients just couldn't keep up. which would seem the likely outcome since we've not seen more than a few Auroras and no replacement Ancient made stocks of Drones and ZPMs or other power sources, but many more Wraith ships.
I'd also like to point out that it's never been stated that the Ancients weren't losing ground at the beginning of the war, the hologram on Atlantis showed planets being lost, the Ancients held the galaxy in the beginning, but gradually over the hundred years the war went on for until eventually all that was left was Atlantis.


The Pathogen is the only method we know that can make a Wraith vessel, it was transforming Atlantis using any energy sources it could find to do so, so there's no reason to think that the Wraith's biological ships or their entire fleet isn't made in exactly the same way, until we're shown something different.
Taking canon on face value means that so far the Pathogen is the only means by which we know the Wraith can make their vessels.
I forget exactly how fast the Pathogen was going to transform Atlantis in The Seed, but I seem to recall months being said, using the Naqueda reactors as it's main energy source (before it got to the main power lines of the city which were connected to the ZPM), if that's the case or even if it took longer for the Wraith to make ships it doesn't go against the Wraith being able to make many vessels during the war, since they had less powerful ships they'd always need more ships than the Ancients, enough to be a significant threat to the galaxy.

[mirdin1992]

The ancient had Matter conversion technology, star in a bottle and Von Neuman machines and a buttload of WMD on a galactic scale. They didn't loose because they were too few of them, they lost because of their incompetence and their inability to get their faces out of their asses.

Give me the ancient repository in my head without exploding, a matter converter with a good computer system and a ZPM with highest stated yield(solar system busting at 50% or just the planet busting one) and the wraith will be gone in less than a year. No, make that a month.No, a week if I break in the time dilation machines.(and this is without using any biological weapons on them)

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The ancient had Matter conversion technology, star in a bottle and Von Neuman machines and a buttload of WMD on a galactic scale. They didn't loose because they were too few of them, they lost because of their incompetence and their inability to get their faces out of their asses.

Give me the ancient repository in my head without exploding, a matter converter with a good computer system and a ZPM with highest stated yield(solar system busting at 50% or just the planet busting one) and the wraith will be gone in less than a year. No, make that a month.No, a week if I break in the time dilation machines.(and this is without using any biological weapons on them)

Then how come that's what's been stated on the show?
They saw no way to win the war, they could defeat the Wraith in almost every battle, but could never defeat all of them.

BTW when has it been said that the Ancients who lived in the Pegasus galaxy had matter conversion tech?
I don't doubt that they had something similar to the Asgard's device, being that they were able to make devices like Stargates, but it's never been stated that the Lantians had such devices whilst in the Pegasus galaxy.

Simple devices like Aterro were never mentioned to be known to all Ancients as far as I'm aware so how exactly would you achieve this week extinction of the Wraith?
Neither have we seen something like Dakara present in the galaxy.
Obviously all the Ancients had to use was their ships, drones and cities, etc.

If the Ancients were incompetent then how come they managed to last for 100 years against the Wraith?
That's something we'd have no hope of doing in a similar situation, we'd be lucky to last a week, if not a day with 20 304s, maybe a few days if some people inhabited Atlantis.

The only reason Earth hasn't been wiped out is because it isn't in the Pegasus galaxy, if it was we'd have been wiped out a long time ago and I'm talking about with the tech we have now.
The only way any race would really be able to defeat with the Wraith is with preparation, numerical superiority and better technology.
Hindsight would help as well.


Anyway this is off topic now, we're talking about Drones and Shields, not the history of the Ancient Vs Wraith war and how to win from either side.

[mirdin1992]

Then how come that's what's been stated on the show?
They saw no way to win the war, they could defeat the Wraith in almost every battle, but could never defeat all of them.

Thats because of their stupidity. You don't fight a numerical superior force head on. You attack supply lines, factories and deprive them of resources.

BTW when has it been said that the Ancients who lived in the Pegasus galaxy had matter conversion tech?
I don't doubt that they had something similar to the Asgard's device, being that they were able to make devices like Stargates, but it's never been stated that the Lantians had such devices whilst in the Pegasus galaxy.

Maybe they did maybe they didn't. They still had planet kablooey in a bottle. With that amount of energy a ZPM could provide Earth power consumption for a million years and go for several more.

Simple devices like Aterro were never mentioned to be known to all Ancients as far as I'm aware so how exactly would you achieve this week extinction of the Wraith?

They had self replicating nanoprobes with ability to effect molecules, atoms etc. A means to get them to every planet in the galaxy at once. leave them there a while and you have a fully ancient planet with millions of ships and time dilation to it and voila. Instant army.

My favorite scenario in my head with ancient tech is to infect all the human population of pegasus with nanites. Wait for the wraith to munch down on them. Wraith get infected. When All/Most of the hive ships are infected give a command for the nanites to explode or more specifically to turn into a 'Exploding tumor ray' and watch the fireworks and begin the cleanup mission.

Neither have we seen something like Dakara present in the galaxy.
Obviously all the Ancients had to use was their ships, drones and cities, etc.

Ancient database on Atlantis has all knowledge of their the schematics for it must be somewhere in there, somewhere.

If the Ancients were incompetent then how come they managed to last for 100 years against the Wraith?
That's something we'd have no hope of doing in a similar situation, we'd be lucky to last a week, if not a day with 20 304s, maybe a few days if some people inhabited Atlantis.

My problem is that we do so well against them. A race with 50 million years of history that should have stomped on them from the first time they encountered them has no reason to be this incompetent in military tactics, weapons and common sense to loose to something while we beat a egomaniacal worms with a god complex, self-replicating lego blocks of doom, super advanced pan-dimensional energy beings and their followers and were well on our way to getting rid of the residential space vampires that done them in. Maybe humans especially Earth humans are just special.

Also I also don't like it when people use the 'Ancient/Lanteans weren't willing to commit genocide' argument. It just not healthy(for you) to advocate such a policy when the enemy shown its willing to do so to you and any human population that poses a potential threat. The only reason why they are not the only inteligent life in Pegasus is because they need the other for food and the other non-human aliens are hiding.

Anyway this is off topic now, we're talking about Drones and Shields, not the history of the Ancient Vs Wraith war and how to win from either side.

Still think most shield are useless against them maybe with few exception where they likely punch power is proportional how much power you give them.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Thats because of their stupidity. You don't fight a numerical superior force head on. You attack supply lines, factories and deprive them of resources.

It's easy to judge when we've seen basically nothing of the Ancient's wartime strategy.
The Wraith don't really have a need for factories, since their ships appear to be grown, they don't live on planets, pop out of hyperspace at will and grab Humans from anywhere in the galaxy, so the Ancients couldn't really do that to the Wraith.

Maybe they did maybe they didn't. They still had planet kablooey in a bottle. With that amount of energy a ZPM could provide Earth power consumption for a million years and go for several more.

Which they used to power their cities and some of their ships.

They had self replicating nanoprobes with ability to effect molecules, atoms etc. A means to get them to every planet in the galaxy at once. leave them there a while and you have a fully ancient planet with millions of ships and time dilation to it and voila. Instant army.

I'm pretty sure the Asurans came about towards the end of the war, maybe the Ancients planned on doing something like this, but the invention of them came too late, plus there's the fact the Asurans became an intelligent species that weren't willing to do everything for the Ancients.

My favorite scenario in my head with ancient tech is to infect all the human population of pegasus with nanites. Wait for the wraith to munch down on them. Wraith get infected. When All/Most of the hive ships are infected give a command for the nanites to explode or more specifically to turn into a 'Exploding tumor ray' and watch the fireworks and begin the cleanup mission.

This is one of those things that is easy to come up with when you're outside of the situation, but under pressure everyday of your life you may not be abe to think in the same way.
There's also no indication that nanites can be used as an explosive.

Ancient database on Atlantis has all knowledge of their the schematics for it must be somewhere in there, somewhere.

Until it's discovered or shown on the show we don't know whether it's in there, we don't know every piece of Ancient knowledge is contained in the database, not everything either discovered/invented by the Ancients prior to going to Pegasus.

My problem is that we do so well against them. A race with 50 million years of history that should have stomped on them from the first time they encountered them has no reason to be this incompetent in military tactics, weapons and common sense to loose to something while we beat a egomaniacal worms with a god complex, self-replicating lego blocks of doom, super advanced pan-dimensional energy beings and their followers and were well on our way to getting rid of the residential space vampires that done them in. Maybe humans especially Earth humans are just special.

How are we doing so well against the Wraith, we live in another galaxy and have almost lost the majority of our ships and homeworld to the Wraith on at least one occasion and we haven't gone into full all out war against them yet.
Humans aren't that special, most of the time we've just been in the right place at the right time.
The Ancients have saved our hides on more than one occasion with the technology they've left lying around.

Also I also don't like it when people use the 'Ancient/Lanteans weren't willing to commit genocide' argument. It just not healthy(for you) to advocate such a policy when the enemy shown its willing to do so to you and any human population that poses a potential threat. The only reason why they are not the only inteligent life in Pegasus is because they need the other for food and the other non-human aliens are hiding.

Personally I don't think the Ancients were bothered about wiping out the Wraith, I just don't it was possible to simultaniously deactivate every stargate in the galaxy in a simple fast way to prevent more Human lives from being lost before activating Atterro.
I think each Stargate in the galaxy would have to be deactivated by hand, if when the Ancients wanted to do this there weren't very many of them to travel everywhere needed by ship it may have taken too long and the risk of being stopped by the Wraith could have been too high.
If all the Stargates were deactivated then the Humans left over would have no where to run from the Wraith, so really using Atterro would have been a futile plan, since the Ancients would be doing that to then go on and wipe out all Wraith vessels so every Human left in PG could survive.

Still think most shield are useless against them maybe with few exception where they likely punch power is proportional how much power you give them.

No doubt, IMO they're one of the best weapons in the SGVerse, along with APBWs, Ori main beams (even though they seem to suck at hitting simple soil and small mounds of dirt and rock)and a few others.