Vows (201)

[GateWorld]

DOLLHOUSE SEASON TWO VOWS EPISODE NUMBER - 201 Picking up a few months after the first season finale, Echo, who now sporadically remembers past "imprints" due to Alpha’s machinations, weds a wealthy and charismatic British businessmen tied to one of Agent Ballard's open FBI cases. Dr. Saunders struggles with being an Active and makes Topher the target of her aggression, and Boyd mixes business with pleasure in a risky venture. Meanwhile, Adelle makes Ballard an offer he can't refuse. (FOX) VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >

[Sp!der]

i am surprised, nobody seen this yet?!

[ZeroPoint]

I have it on Tivo, but haven't watched yet.

I was as surprised as you, but at about 3AM my time when I checked here. It's been 12 hours since air time in the US.

Where are all the people who would post during the commercial breaks?

[ShadowMaat]

I've been debating whether or not I felt like posting any comments about the premiere. Guess I may as well. *shrug*

I liked Paul Ballard for most of last season. He was a bit one-dimensional in his focus but I thought his heart was in the right place... until I saw how he treated his girlfriend after realizing she was an Active. And everything after that made me like him less and less. The premiere has me convinced that he's just as much of a monster as anyone in the Dollhouse organization and while he might like to think his motives are pure, I don't think they are. I agree with Boyd's dislike of Echo's assignment and I think Adelle hit the nail when she told Ballard he "got rid" of November so she wouldn't be getting in the way of his pursuit of Echo. He isn't a good guy, he just THINKS he is. He's actually a bit of a creep.

I have mixed feelings about the Whiskey/Topher stuff. On the one hand it was a lot of fun to watch. I laughed at Topher's girly scream and freakout over the rats and I loved the whole freaky seduction thing- as well as the revelation that Topher didn't program her to hate him- but on the other hand... She's obviously unstable and getting progressively worse, possibly even dangerous, and no matter how guilty Topher may feel over what happened to her I don't think that's an adequate reason to keep her around. I know they need a good, dedicated doctor, but Whiskey is swimming in the deep end of the crazy pool and I don't think that's good for anyone.

I didn't like the Whiskey/Boyd stuff in Epitaph One and now that we're witnessing the beginning of it I like it even less. I also think there may be something to Whiskey's suspicions about his sudden interest.

I did, however, love Victor's brief appearances. I'm glad they decided to save him, although given Adelle's interest in him I suppose it isn't a surprise. Loved her fondling his face (and his kinda calling her on it, however innocent that may have been) and the little bit at the end with Sierra doing basically the same thing? Very sweet. I'd rather see more of them than Echo, whom I've never really warmed to, despite the layers they're adding on with her kinda remembering things.

[12OzMouse]

Just being honest, I'm pretty confused. Who was actually the client in this episode? Ballard's kicked out of the FBI, but yet he's involved with this whole sting thing. Seems like either I've forgotten a lot since season 1 or I'm just completely lost here...

[ShadowMaat]

Just being honest, I'm pretty confused. Who was actually the client in this episode? Ballard's kicked out of the FBI, but yet he's involved with this whole sting thing. Seems like either I've forgotten a lot since season 1 or I'm just completely lost here...

Ballard was the client. It was part of his deal with Adelle to not tattle on what they were doing. "Give me Echo so I can bring this bat turd down" sorta thing. His superiors may have fired him, but as far as HE is concerned, he's still FBI and will do whatever it takes to help them out.

[12OzMouse]

Thanks, that helps. I guess I need to go back and watch that episode from last season cause I can't seem to recall much of that now other than him giving freedom to November rather than Echo.

After the DVD release and watching the un-aired pilot and Epitaph One, I was feeling pretty good about the show. But last night's episode was just strange, IMO. I mean if a person was new to the show, they would be totally lost. If they had given 30 seconds worth of recap as a preface to the show, it might have helped a bit. I'm afraid this year is going to be another ratings struggle, it started out the season at the bottom and the target audience is going to get split next week for sure. But, dvr numbers are starting to carry more weight these days, so we'll just have to see how it all shakes out....

[Siglavy]

I liked Paul Ballard for most of last season. He was a bit one-dimensional in his focus but I thought his heart was in the right place... until I saw how he treated his girlfriend after realizing she was an Active. And everything after that made me like him less and less. The premiere has me convinced that he's just as much of a monster as anyone in the Dollhouse organization and while he might like to think his motives are pure, I don't think they are. I agree with Boyd's dislike of Echo's assignment and I think Adelle hit the nail when she told Ballard he "got rid" of November so she wouldn't be getting in the way of his pursuit of Echo. He isn't a good guy, he just THINKS he is. He's actually a bit of a creep.

It will be interesting to see where they take Ballard's character. Now that he's Echo's handler, TPTB are probably going to put in a romance between the two of them. I'd rather not see it go that direction. I still like him, but less now that we've seen he's willing to set aside his morals to attain his goal. We still don't really know much about his true motives. At least Topher shows some remorse, even if it's only towards one or two people.

I have mixed feelings about the Whiskey/Topher stuff. On the one hand it was a lot of fun to watch. I laughed at Topher's girly scream and freakout over the rats and I loved the whole freaky seduction thing- as well as the revelation that Topher didn't program her to hate him- but on the other hand... She's obviously unstable and getting progressively worse, possibly even dangerous, and no matter how guilty Topher may feel over what happened to her I don't think that's an adequate reason to keep her around. I know they need a good, dedicated doctor, but Whiskey is swimming in the deep end of the crazy pool and I don't think that's good for anyone.

I hadn't pegged Topher as the 'terrified of rodents' type, but it was pretty funny. The scene between Whiskey and Topher, while somewhat disturbing, really helped to make the characters more sympathetic. Poor Topher, his work is starting to come back to bite him in the behind. Whiskey managed to bring up a whole nother moral issue. You can't return the original persona without wiping the doll persona.

One question though, why in the world did they let the self-aware, glitching Whiskey out of the Dollhouse alone? I don't imagine that will end well.

I didn't like the Whiskey/Boyd stuff in Epitaph One and now that we're witnessing the beginning of it I like it even less. I also think there may be something to Whiskey's suspicions about his sudden interest.

I don't like the Whiskey/Boyd stuff either. I just don't buy Boyd being interested in Whiskey. If there is something ulterior motive there, they better start giving us a few hints.

I'd rather see more of them than Echo, whom I've never really warmed to, despite the layers they're adding on with her kinda remembering things.

Glitching/Remembering Echo is much more interesting than Tabula Rasa Echo, but I have to agree, I'd rather see more of the other characters. That may be part of why I liked the Topher/Whiskey stuff.

Overall, it was a good episode. Wish we'd seen more episodes like this in the first season, but we needed the setup into how everything functions before they started throwing wrenches in the works. I'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

[ZeroPoint]

Ok, finally watched it.

I don't hear much that Jamie Bamber (Lee Adama from BattleStarGalactica) is a guest on this one. Re-uniting with Tahmoh Penikett (Helo from BSG).

I really want to fast forward through anything that shows any imprinted active, since it's "an actor playing a part of playing an actor playing a part", which breaks fourth wall for me in a way I don't like. I think part of this is why some may want to see less of Echo/Eliza.

Whiskey/Topher had me eye rolling. Going through all that unnecessary dramatic interaction when either/both could resolve much more by discussing it over coffee while doing database search on why Whiskey was set the way she is.

I saw Whiskey/Boyd as a throwaway to prompt Whiskey/Topher and the exit.

The rat scene made me wonder if there is an in-story market for people that want fears or bad memories removed, in a faster or more thorough way than psychiatry. Being terrified of rats when daily working with a machine that could erase that fear, would be a bit frustrating.

How'd Whiskey get the car? All the preset fears, but still with a valid driving license and freedom to leave the building?

I'd also like to know more of the setup and functions of the Dollhouse, but too much definition limits future storylines or will be see as inconsistent with what was shown before.

[pisces27]

I hadn't pegged Topher as the 'terrified of rodents' type, but it was pretty funny. The scene between Whiskey and Topher, while somewhat disturbing, really helped to make the characters more sympathetic. Poor Topher, his work is starting to come back to bite him in the behind. Whiskey managed to bring up a whole nother moral issue. You can't return the original persona without wiping the doll persona.

I thought this was the best part of the show. Amy Acker did a great job, it's about time they did something with her character. My favorite line by Dr Saunders "My entire existence was constructed by a sociopath in a sweater vest. What do you suggest I do?"

Glitching/Remembering Echo is much more interesting than Tabula Rasa Echo, but I have to agree, I'd rather see more of the other characters. That may be part of why I liked the Topher/Whiskey stuff.

I don't find Echo that interesting and she's my least favorite character. Like you, I'm much more interested in everyone else.

I'm looking forward to more of Alexis Denisof.

[12OzMouse]

You know, I'd just like to comment on the media response to last nights ratings. Boy, they sure are quick to pounce on a wounded animal. Here we are at the first episode of the season and they are already starting a death-watch.

As much as I like Whedon, I'm kinda surprised with this episode. I've heard all of the comments he's made though the summer about this season, just doing what he wants with the show and casting who he wants to play the roles. I just hope he can wrap it up in 13 episodes, because unless he changes the product a little, it's never going to see a third.

Since I posted this morning, I've watched it again and for a casual fan, it really takes 2 viewings to understand what's happening. That's not going to cut it with your average viewer. I have to laugh at all the Sarah Conner fans that are gloating about last night's numbers, too. Oh well, hopefully next week's offering will change the complexion of things...

[Amalthea]

It wasn't a "wow" episode, but it did get the ball moving on a few things. I also think there is some deception going on on the part of Whedon. He's giving us information that we think will line up with what we saw in Epitaph One, but then it won't because that's what he does.

I'm not surprised that Dr. Saunders is unstable, for several reasons. One, she just learned that she's "fake"; Two, that she was "made" by someone she hates; Three, that she likes existing; and Four, I suspect she is inherently unstable, regardless of 1-3. By that I mean, the original Dr. Saunders was male- being male or female influences how we see the world, how we learn, how we interact, etc. Topher would have really had to wash the original Saunders' memories to dump "him" into a female active. That'd make anyone go a little nuts.

[sparklegem]

I have it on Tivo, but haven't watched yet.

I was as surprised as you, but at about 3AM my time when I checked here. It's been 12 hours since air time in the US.

Where are all the people who would post during the commercial breaks?

Well, for me anyway, I wanted to post something after the episode aired, but when this thread is locked even an hour after I've seen the episode, I lose interest.

I definitely enjoyed the episode last night. I feel like I need to watch it again to understand everything, though. It definitely had a different focus/feel to last season. Loved the Topher/Whiskey stuff. It shows that Topher does think about the implications of what he does to a certain extent. Whiskey just dove into the deep-end of crazy, though. I don't even recognize the Dr. Saunders personality in her anymore. Also really liked the scene between her and Echo.

[LoneStar1836]

It wasn't a "wow" episode, but it did get the ball moving on a few things. I also think there is some deception going on on the part of Whedon. He's giving us information that we think will line up with what we saw in Epitaph One, but then it won't because that's what he does.

Heh. I didn't buy the dvd set so I don't know what the heck went down in that episode. I wonder if that is a good or bad thing.

I liked last night's ep. Didn't wow me, but I thought it was pretty solid. Would need to watch it again probably.

Amy Acker did a great job. The Dr. Saunders/Topher bits were probably the most interesting part of the ep for me. And yes, Alexis Denisof. Saw his name in the credits so I was waiting to see who he would show up as.

I don't really like any of the characters with the exception of Victor. (And Mr. Dominic from last season whom they promptly shoved in the attic. He may have not been a "good" guy but I still liked to watch the character. ) Maybe if the show centered on Victor I might like it more or at least spread the wealth more. Echo does nothing for me. I mean I like the show (but don't love it like I do other Whedon shows), but I'm not really invested in the characters so honestly I don't give a flip what happens to them (especially the main character) which is a bad thing I'd think. I definitely watch this show more for the story than the characters.

[Amalthea]

Heh. I didn't buy the dvd set so I don't know what the heck went down in that episode. I wonder if that is a good or bad thing.

I liked last night's ep. Didn't wow me, but I thought it was pretty solid. Would need to watch it again probably.

Amy Acker did a great job. The Dr. Saunders/Topher bits were probably the most interesting part of the ep for me. And yes, Alexis Denisof. Saw his name in the credits so I was waiting to see who he would show up as.

I don't really like any of the characters with the exception of Victor. (And Mr. Dominic from last season whom they promptly shoved in the attic. He may have not been a "good" guy but I still liked to watch the character. ) Maybe if the show centered on Victor I might like it more or at least spread the wealth more. Echo does nothing for me. I mean I like the show (but don't love it like I do other Whedon shows), but I'm not really invested in the characters so honestly I don't give a flip what happens to them (especially the main character) which is a bad thing I'd think. I definitely watch this show more for the story than the characters.

Ohhh, you MUST and I do say MUST see it! There are non-DVD ways to go about it if you catch my drift. I promise it will change your mind about the characters.

[ShadowMaat]

Yeah, I definitely wish Joss wasn't obsessed with making Echo the center of EVERYTHING and that we could have some eps focusing on the OTHER dolls. And not just a throwaway ep or two created just to give Eliza a break.

[huntress]

Dollhouse is back and damn the first episode was goooooood! Looks like Joss listened to us fans we asked for more Whiskey and we got more Whiskey ;-) a LOT more Whiskey. IMHO Amy Acker should be turned into a regular and Dichen Lachman into a guest star. Her Sierra is so useless and even the few scenes with her in this episode could have been written out and no one would have missed them. The scenes between Whiskey and Topher were VERY interesting and I love it that Echo actually remembers now everything and that Paul is her handler now.

[12OzMouse]

Isn't Amy Acker the one that they only have for 3 episodes this year because she's on another show? I agree that her story line is one of the most interesting, but it's gonna end up to be disappointing if we've already seen 1/3 of her total performance this year...

[pjt]

I really liked the episode, and didn't find it that confusing, neither did it cause me any trouble that I wasn't sure at the beginning who the client was. I found it really clever that anyone would hire an active for playing a wedding with this many guests. And it turned out it was really a wedding. Well at least Jamie Bamber's character thought it was.
The Whiskey/Topher storyline was interesting, as was Boyd's interest in Whiskey, whether it's real or not.
As for Ballard, I presume season two is about him, and his obsession with Caroline.

So I don't mind it's sometimes a bit confusing, and not that straightforward, but this is Whedon. So I rather have this a complex show and maybe only have this season, than another one in a dozen show that's purposefully made for "everyone", just to last more.

[Ian-S]

I think Topher had the hots for Whiskey before he had to reprogram her to be the doc, or maybe she was his little playdoll we saw the Aussie one being last season, or perhaps they are related which is why he programmed her to despise him and his technology.

Anyway, when I saw the opening credits I almost turned it off, having Eliza shoved in your face is in every scene isone thing, but constantly for nearly a minute nearly made my head explode.

I understand this series is for her, but really I don't want it shoved in my face, the producers of CSI made exactly the same mistake last season by giving an overly excessive amount of screen time to the new "name" and lost views hand over fist as a result.

I'll reserve judgement, story was ok as was one of those ground layer episodes, but to give you some idea of the feeling in this house, my wife (who was more into dollhouse than me) wanted to re-watch a week old episode of Defying Gravity rather than this last night and tbh I more watch this for Topher's crazyness and Whiskey's bare very long legs than anything else.