Originally posted by starg8fans
View Post
But I don't think that Sam's more guilty than Dean at all.
I’m still of the opinion that the only time Sam was guilty of making a clear headed wrong choice was when Dean first came back from hell and he kept secretly seeing Ruby. He could and should have told Dean at that point.
All the other times he was either totally grief stricken and drunk(after Dean died and nothing he did, again and again, to bring him back worked and then he succumbed to Ruby) or addicted to demon blood (again Ruby…Sam was desperate for revenge on Lilith…and Ruby showed him how he could become stronger) All those things blurred his normal good judgement.
Dean made the ultimate loving sacrifice by giving up his soul for Sam but that was his choice...freely given. He knew he'd done wrong...he looked incredibly guilty as Bobby forced it out of him.
Also Sam was infected with demon blood as a baby...no consent or choice by him then...with the intention to make him more vulnerable to temptation and manipulation later.
Originally posted by Crichiel
View Post
It IS really interesting to go back in any season, watch the first couple of episodes, and then put them into the context of what happens later! 
Actually the first and third points here, I did bring up in my original post of this ep
. Dean letting Bobby yell at Sam while he just stood by was one of my examples of Dean acting OOC. And also why I said I was half-expecting that during that scene DEAN was possessed, because he generally won't let anyone but himself yell at Sam. But, yes it is interesting to now put it in the viewpoint of subsequent episodes. We know now just how much anger Dean was holding onto over this.
And, having just watched Dead Man's Blood last night I was also reminded that Dean DID let their dad talk to Sam like that. And Bobby is like their dad, so that and the fact that Dean himself wanted to say all these things but was bottling it up would explain his letting Sam take the heat there.
In my original post, when I pointed out that Dean said "We started this...", I think I actually gave him more credit then than I do now after seeing Fallen Idols. When I hear it now it bugs me even more because just like in Fallen Idols I take it more as that, "It's not ALL your fault." It's too offhand. He doesn't sound like the tragically remorseful Dean of Heaven and Hell, Family Remains, and OTHOAP.
Whether it was Dean's fault or not, what he did in Hell and breaking the first seal hit two different nerves for him: 1) the knowledge of the pain he inflicted on those other souls and the fact that he enjoyed it when he is supposed to fight monsters that do the things he did and 2) his sore spot of disappointing his father, which he felt like he did by breaking in 30 years when his dad didn't break in 100. That's a whole lot of guilt and this is Dean we are talking about. I mean, Azazel magically spirited Sam away from him to a different state where Jake stabbed him in the back and Dean blamed HIMSELF for that one!! Dean hasn't been shown to let guilt go that easily. So, I guess it's been the blase way that Dean has admitted his guilt this season that's is irritating me.
But I think the point behind all this, as you pointed out (and as Dean says at the end of this episode), is that it isn't the apocalypse that Dean is upset about so much as the betrayal.
Actually the first and third points here, I did bring up in my original post of this ep
. Dean letting Bobby yell at Sam while he just stood by was one of my examples of Dean acting OOC. And also why I said I was half-expecting that during that scene DEAN was possessed, because he generally won't let anyone but himself yell at Sam. But, yes it is interesting to now put it in the viewpoint of subsequent episodes. We know now just how much anger Dean was holding onto over this. And, having just watched Dead Man's Blood last night I was also reminded that Dean DID let their dad talk to Sam like that. And Bobby is like their dad, so that and the fact that Dean himself wanted to say all these things but was bottling it up would explain his letting Sam take the heat there.
In my original post, when I pointed out that Dean said "We started this...", I think I actually gave him more credit then than I do now after seeing Fallen Idols. When I hear it now it bugs me even more because just like in Fallen Idols I take it more as that, "It's not ALL your fault." It's too offhand. He doesn't sound like the tragically remorseful Dean of Heaven and Hell, Family Remains, and OTHOAP.
Whether it was Dean's fault or not, what he did in Hell and breaking the first seal hit two different nerves for him: 1) the knowledge of the pain he inflicted on those other souls and the fact that he enjoyed it when he is supposed to fight monsters that do the things he did and 2) his sore spot of disappointing his father, which he felt like he did by breaking in 30 years when his dad didn't break in 100. That's a whole lot of guilt and this is Dean we are talking about. I mean, Azazel magically spirited Sam away from him to a different state where Jake stabbed him in the back and Dean blamed HIMSELF for that one!! Dean hasn't been shown to let guilt go that easily. So, I guess it's been the blase way that Dean has admitted his guilt this season that's is irritating me.
But I think the point behind all this, as you pointed out (and as Dean says at the end of this episode), is that it isn't the apocalypse that Dean is upset about so much as the betrayal.
) so I'll join in the discussions now. I've got a lot to read through, so I may be best doing a few posts to catch up, rather than a huge on that no-one wants to read! 
Comment