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What 'darker' storylines and 'character development' are people looking for in SGU?

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    What 'darker' storylines and 'character development' are people looking for in SGU?

    There's a lot of talk that I see going around by people claiming that SGU should be 'darker', but no one ever really seems to say what they mean. So what does that mean to you?

    They talk about 'character development' but again don't actually say what they mean. What does that mean to you?


    I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it is that people think should be changed without vague references to it being 'darker' or having more 'character development' when both can be read too many different ways. Please try to be specific. Give examples. Use references to other things. Go to town. Just give an actual answer, something more than a buzzword or phrase.

    #2
    I think SGU is just going to be a copy of BSG

    Last edited by Phenom; 08 July 2009, 05:37 AM.
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      #3
      Originally posted by Phenom View Post
      I think SGU is just going to be a copy of BSG

      Some would argue that your comment doesn't make sense to the topic and doesn't belong here, myself not being one of those people, I'll just ask if you care to expand.

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        #4
        Let's see.

        Holocausts on alternate Earths. Aliens possesing human hosts for 1000's of years, sometimes torturing the helpless hosts for kicks.

        Torture that included resurrections for the purpose of more torture.

        Daniel was raped by Hathor, and other non-consensual sex occurred under alien influence: Jack with those humans that only live 100 days, Daniel presumably when he was a sarcophagus addict.

        Previous Stargates didn't back away from dark incidents. It's the fall-out of those incidents the main characters couldn't deal with realistically because of the shows' settings. In SG-1 and in later seasons of Atlantis, you couldn't have recurring characters who were not over their post-traumatic stress quickly because the availability of replacement personnel in the settings of these shows would demand those characters not return in the same capacity.

        The setting of SGU allows characters who are really screwed up, not coping well, not qualified, or even people who have done bad things to each other to have to continue where they are. That's where a new element of dark opens up.

        In real life, just being the victim of an armed robbery with no physical injuries can incapacitate a person emotionally.

        Not since Jack O'Neil had a gun to his own head in his introduction in the Stargate movie have Stargate main characters been allowed to truly arc through dark territory. It's just the nature of series television and the settings chosen.


        "I have darkness inside of me!" - SpongeBob Squarepants

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          #5
          Originally posted by Phenom View Post
          I think SGU is just going to be a copy of BSG

          I think it will be more like BSG than SG-1 or Atlantis were, but I don't think it's going to be quite as melodramatic as BSG. I certainly hope not. I did like in BSG how they developed so many different characters, which I hope SGU does. I also hope SGU retains the humor element that SG-1 and SGA had, and which BSG most certainly did not have.
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            #6
            As just a side note (thought it's an interesting topic nonetheless), Phenom is being facetious when he says that. Just felt like explaining his position, as he's not online to correct it
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              #7
              Originally posted by GateFanSamJack View Post
              Let's see.

              Holocausts on alternate Earths. Aliens possesing human hosts for 1000's of years, sometimes torturing the helpless hosts for kicks.

              Torture that included resurrections for the purpose of more torture.

              Daniel was raped by Hathor, and other non-consensual sex occurred under alien influence: Jack with those humans that only live 100 days, Daniel presumably when he was a sarcophagus addict.

              Previous Stargates didn't back away from dark incidents. It's the fall-out of those incidents the main characters couldn't deal with realistically because of the shows' settings. In SG-1 and in later seasons of Atlantis, you couldn't have recurring characters who were not over their post-traumatic stress quickly because the availability of replacement personnel in the settings of these shows would demand those characters not return in the same capacity.

              The setting of SGU allows characters who are really screwed up, not coping well, not qualified, or even people who have done bad things to each other to have to continue where they are. That's where a new element of dark opens up.

              In real life, just being the victim of an armed robbery with no physical injuries can incapacitate a person emotionally.

              Not since Jack O'Neil had a gun to his own head in his introduction in the Stargate movie have Stargate main characters been allowed to truly arc through dark territory. It's just the nature of series television and the settings chosen.

              See, I disagree. The darker subject matter is being covered. Just because people don't break down every moment of every day doesn't mean they're not affected by something. These are people in extraordinary situations. Most of them very heavily trained soldiers. To think that things would affect them the same way they would an everyday joe is completely unrealistic to me. Life does go on...and if you're regularly dealing with life and death situations for not just yourself or your team, but entire worlds, the game would change for you. Your perspective would change. After someone actually does save an entire world, do you really think they're the same person as the average guy on the streets anymore? If you're dealing with an entire galaxy or more, the concerns that we plague ourselves with on this planet would start to seem rather trivial.

              When people become adults and they hear a teenager complaining about how the 'love of their life' has left them or they had a fight, your level of sympathy is generally lessened the further in age you are from the subject. The reason for this is that your perspective of the world changes as you age. And that's just dealing with the confines of this world. It's safe to assume that it would continue to hold true the broader a person's world view became.

              And one of the biggest issues that returning soldiers have in their relationships is that the longer they were in the field, the more emotionally detached they became. Technology has helped this some by allowing better means to maintain communication and attachment to the world they left behind, but it's still a common problem.

              In The Ark of Truth, they dealt with Tomin having to face that the gods that he swore his life to were false and that his daughter was the greatest evil in the universe and at the same time, he was one of the only people who could do something about it. They also had Teal'C tell him how he can never make up for it but that he had to get over it. Some people may fall apart over such things but he was a high-ranking officer in their military and he did what he had to do. For him to have given up and fallen apart because he couldn't handle it would be more unrealistic to me.

              Also, early on, Daniel and Jack routinely fought over what actions to take in various situations because of Daniels emotions. This waned over the years. This was realistic to me because of everything that he had gone through. It would be completely unrealistic to me to think he'd remain the same person.

              So I still don't see where the show would be 'darker'. Or are you saying that you want to see more weaker characters? Because that's much different than the show being darker.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Myth View Post
                So I still don't see where the show would be 'darker'
                I think darker means "how" the subject is covered not "what" subjects are covered. For example, I bet Law and Order would (show/cover/deal with) rape in a more realistic gritty fashion than the Daniel/Hathor Incident or the Oneil incident with the people that only lived 100 days that were mentioned in a previous post --- which were both almost played off as a comedy in my mind.
                BSG (Drama/Soap Opera)

                Soap Opera: The main characteristics that define soap operas are "an emphasis on family life, personal relationships, sexual dramas, emotional and moral conflicts; some coverage of topical issues; set in familiar domestic interiors with only occasional excursions into new locations

                Drama: A drama film is a film genre that depends mostly on in-depth development of realistic characters dealing with emotional themes

                SG1/SGA are not Drama/Soap although some elements are touched on to add depth to these action/adventure series. If you want to see a show focused on Soap/Drama go watch BSG or Days of our Lives.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bytor View Post
                  I think darker means "how" the subject is covered not "what" subjects are covered. For example, I bet Law and Order would (show/cover/deal with) rape in a more realistic gritty fashion than the Daniel/Hathor Incident or the Oneil incident with the people that only lived 100 days that were mentioned in a previous post --- which were both almost played off as a comedy in my mind.
                  Ok, but how would it be covered 'darker'? Keep in mind that the Daniel/Hathor incident involved aliens. So to apply our society's definition of 'gritty' would be unrealistic in this context. From what I recall (and I could be wrong about this) but wasn't he under mind control at the time? You have to factor that into it. To think that an advanced alien species would play the game by our rules is just unrealistic to me.

                  It can be argued that what Fifth did to Sam was much 'darker' and far worse than physical rape within the world of Stargate.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Myth View Post
                    Ok, but how would it be covered 'darker'?
                    First by having the character emotionally deal with the results and possibly learn/change from them. Jack Oneil woke up with Cinthia (i believe that was the name) and it seemed like he didn't care what so ever and played it off as a joke.

                    When someone deals with rape on grittier, character driven, and realistic show (which SGU is supposed to be) i believe there is much more covered than. "Oh, I just woke up after being forced to sleep with someone I don't know, haha, funny!"
                    BSG (Drama/Soap Opera)

                    Soap Opera: The main characteristics that define soap operas are "an emphasis on family life, personal relationships, sexual dramas, emotional and moral conflicts; some coverage of topical issues; set in familiar domestic interiors with only occasional excursions into new locations

                    Drama: A drama film is a film genre that depends mostly on in-depth development of realistic characters dealing with emotional themes

                    SG1/SGA are not Drama/Soap although some elements are touched on to add depth to these action/adventure series. If you want to see a show focused on Soap/Drama go watch BSG or Days of our Lives.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bytor View Post
                      First by having the character emotionally deal with the results and possibly learn/change from them. Jack Oneil woke up with Cinthia (i believe that was the name) and it seemed like he didn't care what so ever and played it off as a joke.

                      When someone deals with rape on grittier more realistic show (which SGU is supposed to be) i believe there is much more covered than. "Oh, I just woke up after being forced to sleep with someone I don't know, haha, funny!"
                      And after saving planets and even galaxies and facing death countless times, you don't think that would change? I think people whom are looking for it to be 'darker' are ignoring the subject matter at hand. Jack was military trained and had been in countless battles and life and death situations. Do you really think that waking up next to Cinthia would be that big of a deal to him? Or qualify on a list of his 100 worst experiences? Again, I think it's very unrealistic to apply that perspective to the characters in Stargate that live in a much different world.

                      Realism in fiction should be based on the fictional world in the story, not our perspective of it from our world. This is what Stargate has done and I think they did a pretty good job of it.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Myth View Post
                        And after saving planets and even galaxies and facing death countless times, you don't think that would change?
                        Except this particular incident occurred in episode 8 of season one. They had saved no planets, galaxies, and had hardly faced death up to that point.

                        I'll grant you that Jack really isn't the type of character to get outwardly upset about anything (much less this), but this reasoning is flawed.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Coronach View Post
                          Except this particular incident occurred in episode 8 of season one. They had saved no planets, galaxies, and had hardly faced death up to that point.

                          I'll grant you that Jack really isn't the type of character to get outwardly upset about anything (much less this), but this reasoning is flawed.

                          They saved a planet (possibly 2 if you consider the fact that Ra was going to return to Earth) in the movie. And the pilot dealt with them saving slaves from Abydos on Chulak where the order had just been given to kill them all. And that was just up to and including the pilot which only covered what happened on-camera. And Jack was special forces before that. Different worlds..

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Myth View Post
                            And after saving planets and even galaxies and facing death countless times, you don't think that would change?
                            This is part of the difference of the show in general, they won't be saving planet after planet, galaxy after galaxy. They are going for a more realistic approach, their goal is to survive, not wipe out the newest rubber headed aliens and save the galaxy for the 100th time. How many times did we hear in the trailers "We're not supposed to be here".. If i hear it again, I may barf.

                            Originally posted by Myth View Post
                            Realism in fiction should be based on the fictional world in the story, not our perspective of it from our world. This is what Stargate has done and I think they did a pretty good job of it.
                            FYI, I agree with you, I'm just stating the other side of the coin.
                            BSG (Drama/Soap Opera)

                            Soap Opera: The main characteristics that define soap operas are "an emphasis on family life, personal relationships, sexual dramas, emotional and moral conflicts; some coverage of topical issues; set in familiar domestic interiors with only occasional excursions into new locations

                            Drama: A drama film is a film genre that depends mostly on in-depth development of realistic characters dealing with emotional themes

                            SG1/SGA are not Drama/Soap although some elements are touched on to add depth to these action/adventure series. If you want to see a show focused on Soap/Drama go watch BSG or Days of our Lives.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Myth View Post
                              Ok, but how would it be covered 'darker'? Keep in mind that the Daniel/Hathor incident involved aliens. So to apply our society's definition of 'gritty' would be unrealistic in this context. From what I recall (and I could be wrong about this) but wasn't he under mind control at the time? You have to factor that into it. To think that an advanced alien species would play the game by our rules is just unrealistic to me.

                              It can be argued that what Fifth did to Sam was much 'darker' and far worse than physical rape within the world of Stargate.
                              It is not realistic for someone to become used to trauma without becoming a screwed up human being in the process. Previous Stargates have not been realistic in respect to characters bouncing back and being ready for duty over and over. They couldn't have the show (or countless other action-based shows) unless they did it that way, true, but it is definitely not realistic.

                              Yes, the characters would have to be weaker in order to deal with their trauma more realistically, but there is no such thing as someone as strong as any individual on the SG-1 team. People do not toughen up in that way. They wear down.

                              If you want to consider SG-1 team members exceptions, fine. I don't think such exceptions are really possible. I also don't see any reason to expect any person on the Destiny to be such an exception.


                              "I have darkness inside of me!" - SpongeBob Squarepants

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