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    #91
    {snip}
    Anyway, I sort of rewatched Rising 1 and 2... and found something interesting... I don't think Sheppard actually layed down the C4 from inside the ship. Indeed, he gave C4 to the dudes inside the cell, and they blew that up from the inside. However..

    John: Alright teams of two, learn what you can, lay down the defenses as you see fit. I wanna be able to light this place up if we have to...

    later on

    John: "Light it up"

    *Hive Queen throws a hissy fit*
    *John stabs Queen*

    Explosions from outside. Ya know those pictures someone posted before, of the Hive in Rising... it stands to reason that the majority of the C4 was actually placed from the outside. It even looks like the explosions came from the outside. Correct me if I'm wrong... but the events of that episode seem to point to the C4 being placed from the outside. Except for the bit where the two Wraith dudes get blown up... So maybe John put some C4 on the inside, while the rest was on the outside.


    "Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warheads attacked to missiles? Missiles are the bit that moves it... and the warheads are the bit that go KABOOM.

    "They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law."

    Isn't this speculation?

    "Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right."

    Again correct me if I'm wrong, but the dude who said that didn't actually say that they were GT level explosions, that they were perhaps shots designed to drain shields, rather than create big booms.

    I really doubt Wraith weapons can create GT level explosions either way though. Doesn't GT level weapons mean... they could decimate large areas of land? (Sorry I'm sort of newb... since Hiroshima was like 10kt or something... which means GT level would be heaps stronger?) Because then it stands to reason that we would've seen those types of weapon fire reigning down on to Atlantis in Siege 3... It makes more sense since, if Wraith weapons could do that sort of damage, when the Atlantis team were destroying the Human Wraith camp on the planet, they would only have needed to fire 1 or 2 shots to kill everything within an x km radius.. Yeah... correct me if I'm wrong.


    "They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC."

    According to Zelenka, wasn't what they could pull off 7% of the Ancient database? Which means a lot of information to sift through, considering they deployed Deadalus soon after they received the communicae, leaving them not much time to sift through the information they received? Yeah, I'm just speculating. But they DID have all the reports made by the Altantis team, probably a lot easier to go through. But until then, they hadn't REALLY come to experience the true nature of Wraith Hives... except for "Sanctuary"... I think...


    "They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either."

    Hence there are weaknesses? Like the armour over FTL drives on a Wraith Hive aren't millions of times weaker than the rest of the ship...



    Meh, can't be bothered responding to the rest. It's dinner time. Sorry Shrod, I'm not attacking your arguments in particular, it's just that your post was the last one. AAAAAND, I don't know how to use those quote things... (such a newb). I believe on the whole... you tend to make valid points about Wraith weapons not being the multi GT level... and them having weaknesses... but... perhaps you could be a bit more... gracious... about voicing your opinion? Meh.

    Hahahahahaahaha.

    Your argument about Point P moving in such a way that it is always 2 units from the origin is very circular.

    kekekekeke... OOOH dinner time Byeeeeee
    Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:19 AM.

    Comment


      #92
      Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
      Which you don't know the yeild of to this day.
      We do. You keep denying it because it doesn't suit your views.
      I accept your concesion on the other proofs as well.

      Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no.
      They're quite the same thing. The warheads were small enough to fit on missiles. Those gigaton mines would fit on capital ship missiles. I'm not going to bother to go through the tons of evidence of how naqahdah largely amplifies nuke yields, or on the general ability of naqahdah to enhance explosions hell like.

      They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law.
      First, this does not explain the gigantic explosion.
      Secondly, another logic would also dictate that you'd like your best weapons fired en masse actually, so if one single missile goes through, it will deal serious damage.
      There's no point in cutting the total destruction capacity of your ship if in the end, on the few missiles that will pass through, their summed yield will be low. It makes no sense. The most sensical tactic is to fire as many powerful missiles as you can.
      One goes through, then you're getting assured of dealing a sufficient level of damage. Plenty go through, and it's icing on the cake.

      http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

      Sure looks like a cloud to me. What other proof do you need?
      I'm afraid you'll have to host the picture on a personnal webalbum, because the caps site is down atm.

      Actually, white hot fireballs would turn red as they cool down. Which they usually are to begin with. Color temperatures and all that.
      And they'd turn grey after that. Plus an explosion will have little time to turn to a significant "level of red" if it's continuously pumped with energy.

      Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right.
      ... you are just not paying attention at all.

      1. Sure they can.
      2. We know from Condemned that cruisers can produce huge amounts of light,
      3. despite the fact that they don't have much power to back them up.
      4. FYI, we can also see things light highways and dams from space.
      5. How much light do you think that those produce?
      1. No, they clearly can't. Just looking at the episode in question will finely prove it. We're talking about important levels of light that first need to reach the clouds in sufficient quantities, then remain powerful enough to still be excessively bright once diffused through the cloud layers. You got everything wrong there.
      2. You made that up.
      3. That must be one of the most absurd and desperate claims you have made. What's your evidence that cruiers do not have that much power to back them up? Let me remind you that they're (more or less) Daedalus sized spaceships able to leave the gravity well of a planet, push their heavy mass through space, jump into hyperspace, etc. You're just working from assumptions and taking them as fact. It's no wonder that you get things wrong later on.
      4. Through clouds? Prove it.
      The light produced by the explosions in Sateda or in Siege part 3 is not going to pass through any cloud layer to boot.
      5. You tell me.

      They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC.
      And obviously, even with that databse, they knew near to jack until Allies and the queen forwarding blueprints.
      You're assuming the lantean database had an extensive documentation on Wraith ships. Prove it. Allies strongly implies they did not.
      You're stuck with a necessity to prove something that you won't be able to, and with an episode that largely tells you that you're wrong.
      Tip of the day: concede the point.

      No, what we saw was that the nuke impacted prior to detonation, because it hit an unexpected barrier. The nuke could have had a yield of infinity, and it still wouldn't have mattered at that point, because it wouldn't have been able to achieve critical mass.
      You don't get my point. Even if the nuke had exploded one centimeter away from the shield, it would have not been enough to knock it down.

      They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either.
      Durable materials that can be destroyed by missiles, grenades or mines.
      My point stands.

      Yes, sort of like an elephant gun would still have trouble penetrating through hard ground. What's your point
      Unless you have a very short term memory, my point was clearly written and detailed in the very post you quoted.

      Which would only make the Ori that much more enormous for taking them down 50% in one shot. The other explaination, as MW points out, is that the writers just didn't think that hard about these matters, and didn't bother to check out the actual number regarding the acretion disc before making sure that the Odyssey could do it.
      Thank you, I think we perfectly know this. Nevermind, we're here to try to make all that stuff fit together. You, obviously, have not such a respectful goal.
      By the way, a fictional universe needs a strong level of coherence, for credibility purposes for example.

      Nukes and dynamite release their energy within a fixed point in time and a fixed point in space, thus creating a shockwave. The Ori beam, Ancient weapon, and flamethrowers do not release their energy within a fixed point in time, or a fixed point in space. Ergo, the two are not comparable. Which part of that do you disagree with?
      It took around less than two seconds to release several kilotons of energy and entirely impale the hiveship. According to your model, all that was done via DET. So let's see. 20 KT for three hiveships. +6.6 KT per ship.
      That's a damn good wattage, 3.3 KT/s. Where did the energy go when it hit the more fragile inner structures and ignited materials within the ship's atmosphere? Where are the kiloton worth fireballs?
      Oops, it's not there.
      How long are you going to babble before you finely understand this?

      So your standards be used to debunk one weapon, but not another?
      Again, it's completely irrelevant to the Lantean weapon.

      Wait, while we're at it, and as you really want me to discuss the Rand satellite, let's see what you have to say on that.
      The Prometheus was protected by shields that could easily withstand several megatons of energy, at a time it benefited from asgard shields (even if the momentum of the attacks would still rock the ship and damage it by sheer concussion).
      The ori-rand beam did went through that shield. Yet, the explosions were puny, and in the end, the Prometheus was destroyed by a chain reaction.
      The ori beams seem to operate on that same system. They can pierce shields, but they're not even up to multikiloton energy levels.

      You do realize that John planted C4 along the length, right?
      Prove that C4 was planet both near the prow and near the stern.

      At the top of Allies, McKay (Not Zelenka) is in charge of overseeing the Orion. At that point, the ship is incapable of even releasing it's drones, much less programming them.
      Which would just suggest that the drones did most of the targetting on their own then. (Point A)

      See Rising, which you constantly dodge.

      Zelenka's work is on the ground floor. Afterwards, the Wraith/SGA alliance takes top priority over work on the Orion, and McKay (who was in charge of the project) gets kidnapped. After which point, Zelenka (who wasn't in charge) now has to get the ship ready.

      LORNE: Zelenka says she’ll fly, sir, but – as of right now – that’s about all she can do.
      CALDWELL: You’ll have thirteen hours en route to get your weapons and shields online, but we need to leave right now to make this window. Are you go or no go?


      As for Tower, let's see. John gives Otho the gene therapy after McKay goes underground. Prior to McKay hacking the drone, Otho declares himself the new Lord Protector. In the episode, John specifically tells him that the therapy works on only half the population, and it's unlikely that Otho would risk revealing his hand until after he was sure that, yes, the gene therapy work. The gene therapy itself takes 4 hours to work, so, which means that McKay was there at least that long.
      In which episode are we told that it takes four hours to work? Not trying to dispute this element, just wanting to know where it was revealed.
      As for the time comparison, I concede that Zelenka just had put weapons back online in a hurry. But in fact, it turns out that this actually helps my point.
      See point A.
      The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by Zepro View Post
        Explosions from outside. Ya know those pictures someone posted before, of the Hive in Rising... it stands to reason that the majority of the C4 was actually placed from the outside. It even looks like the explosions came from the outside.
        The only issue there is, how in the world do your guys scale a hive ship from the outside? Other than that, I agree, it would make sense.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warheads attacked to missiles?
        They're sseparate components that are treated differently by non-proliferation treaties. The warhead is the epxlosive yeild, but the missile is the delivery mechanism that makes its tactical capabilities possible. "Metal Gear Solid," for instance, is a game where the United Sttes tries to get around the "no more nuclear missiles" treaty by firing them from railgun tubes. Current debates on foreign WMD programs often center around, "yeah, well even if they have X, they don't have the missiles to fire it with."

        Hence, SGA would have a strong incentive to keep the strong weapons non-tactical with current oversight.

        Isn't this speculation?
        Nope. We have similar multiple warhead delivery systems that rely on weaker missiles because, among other reasons, they're more tactical and deliver their energy more efficiently than commiting the same resources to fewer, bigger nukes.

        Again correct me if I'm wrong, but the dude who said that didn't actually say that they were GT level explosions, that they were perhaps shots designed to drain shields, rather than create big booms.
        Except for the part where he keeps bringing up Misbegotten.

        I really doubt Wraith weapons can create GT level explosions either way though. Doesn't GT level weapons mean... they could decimate large areas of land? (Sorry I'm sort of newb... since Hiroshima was like 10kt or something... which means GT level would be heaps stronger?)
        Basically, yes. Even a small KT weapon would be enough to devestate an entire city. There's nothing "weak" about it.

        Because then it stands to reason that we would've seen those types of weapon fire reigning down on to Atlantis in Siege 3... It makes more sense since, if Wraith weapons could do that sort of damage, when the Atlantis team were destroying the Human Wraith camp on the planet, they would only have needed to fire 1 or 2 shots to kill everything within an x km radius.. Yeah... correct me if I'm wrong.
        The problem is that they reigned down hundreds of shots, and were only to kill everything in a 3 km radius. Even then, they were unsure. That uncertainty doesn't make sense at the nuke level.

        According to Zelenka, wasn't what they could pull off 7% of the Ancient database?
        Sure, but Wraith ship specs would likely be at the top of the list.

        Hence there are weaknesses?
        The issue is the idea that they are literally BILLIONS of times weaker than the rest of the ship.

        Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
        They're quite the same thing.
        Try telling the UN that.

        First, this does not explain the gigantic explosion.
        Nukes in space release all their energy as radiation, which would likely mean a disproptionately large amount of light.

        Secondly, another logic would also dictate that you'd like your best weapons fired en masse actually, so if one single missile goes through, it will deal serious damage.
        Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.

        1. No, they clearly can't. Just looking at the episode in question will finely prove it. We're talking about important levels of light that first need to reach the clouds in sufficient quantities, then remain powerful enough to still be excessively bright once diffused through the cloud layers. You got everything wrong there.
        Dude, we can see plane contrails from orbit, which aren't that thick to begin with, only absorb stray light coming from the sun. It doesn't apparently take much.

        2. You made that up.
        When Stargatescaps goes back up, you can see the screenshots for yourself. When the Wraith bolt hit, the entire scene is flooded with a bight flash.

        3. That must be one of the most absurd and desperate claims you have made. What's your evidence that cruiers do not have that much power to back them up?
        The fact that the exact same bolt mentioned above didn't manage to even knock SGA off their feet, despite landing a few feet away?

        4. Through clouds? Prove it.


        Way to go a complete 180. Apparently now Wraith blasts are visbble only if there aren't any clouds.

        And obviously, even with that databse, they knew near to jack until Allies and the queen forwarding blueprints.
        About the designs, yes. Not about the amount of raw firepower necessary to harm one. As evidence from the fact that McKay knew that the satellite would be enough to destroy all three.

        You don't get my point. Even if the nuke had exploded one centimeter away from the shield,
        Which it didn't.

        Durable materials that can be destroyed by missiles, grenades or mines.
        My point stands.
        Oh, so you're admitting that a wraith ship can be destroyed by the above then?

        By the way, a fictional universe needs a strong level of coherence, for credibility purposes for example.
        If you don't like it, then stop watching. The whole premise of theshow is that you can walk through the event horizon of a wormhole and still be fine.

        It took around less than two seconds to release several kilotons of energy and entirely impale the hiveship.
        Which is forever compared to the precision timing of a nuke in order to reach critical mass. Heck, that's more time than it takes for a massive star to go supernova.

        They can pierce shields, but they're not even up to multikiloton energy levels.
        Maybe because you don't need them to be.

        See Rising, which you constantly dodge.
        You mean the episode where John uses the neural interface? And the episode where they revealed this:

        O'NEILL: Oh. Don't you have a dozen or so people already who can use the ancient technology?

        WEIR: Yeah. With concentration and training they could make it work, but John Sheppard, he does it naturally.


        You're comparing the the most gifted known human at Ancient technology with someone who doesn't have the gene at all.

        In which episode are we told that it takes four hours to work?
        At least four hours.

        WEIR: So we give everyone the gene therapy.
        McKAY: No – it’s not gonna do it.
        ZELENKA: I’ve already been given the gene weeks ago – it didn’t take.
        McKAY: I know. I’m already on it.
        ZELENKA: The gene therapy is only effective in forty-eight percent of recipients.
        FORD (to Beckett): If I was given the gene shot right now, how long would it take to kick in?
        BECKETT: A minimum of four hours.


        Hot Zone.

        Comment


          #94
          Hiroshima was 22 kilotons.

          I don't think any bolts from almost any of the weapons are gonna create anywhere NEAR a gigaton level explosion. I would like to point out for the third time, the energy weapons being used by the wraith ori goauld.. ect ect, are not releasing GIGATONS of energy, but maybe.. GIGAWATTS! >.<

          Comment


            #95
            The s would win in space, but the would win in ground engagements. And if a managed to grab a , the lifesucker will kick some serious @$$.
            Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering-Yoda
            The more bizzare a thing, the less mysterious it proves to be-Sherlock Holmes
            I reject your reality and substitute my own-Adam Savage
            A person is smart. People are stupid, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it-Agent Kay
            That is the exploration that awaits you�not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence-Q
            Church: I learned a very valuable lesson in my travels, Tucker. No matter how bad things might seem...
            Caboose: They could be worse?
            Church: Nope, no matter how bad they seem, they can't be any better, and they can't be any worse, because that's the way things f***ing are, and you better get used to it Nancy. Quit-yer-b****ing.

            If you smoke, you choke. If you choke, you're dead. 'Nuff said.

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
              Try telling the UN that.
              In that case of warheads fired at enemy ships, they're turned into missiles for necessary reasons. Oh, ok, they're on the tip of the rocket. Happy?

              Nukes in space release all their energy as radiation, which would likely mean a disproptionately large amount of light.
              The light suspiciously turn into a luminous 2 km wide cloud. Your explanation?

              Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.
              1. Prove that they're stuck with that.
              2. The number is not a reference to the power of the nuke but a reference to time.

              Dude, we can see plane contrails from orbit, which aren't that thick to begin with, only absorb stray light coming from the sun. It doesn't apparently take much.
              Ah, because now a greyish contrail due to a mix between the gas' own colour and the luminosity of the sun = bright flash.
              Beyond simple constitution problems, you literally overlook the simple element of largely different magnitudes.

              When Stargatescaps goes back up, you can see the screenshots for yourself. When the Wraith bolt hit, the entire scene is flooded with a bight flash.
              If it hits near the camera, it's normal. It does not mean it will be enough to literally appear as a state sized white flash through a dense cloud layer seen from orbit though. Hence your "huge amounts of light" is completely made up.

              The fact that the exact same bolt mentioned above didn't manage to even knock SGA off their feet, despite landing a few feet away?
              Dialed down. I gave you evidence that the cruisers have systems that would require huge amounts of energy. What's hard to understand?


              Way to go a complete 180. Apparently now Wraith blasts are visbble only if there aren't any clouds.
              No, I'm just insiting that you prove your assertion, or retract.
              {snip}

              1. About the designs, yes.
              2. Not about the amount of raw firepower necessary to harm one.
              3. As evidence from the fact that McKay knew that the satellite would be enough to destroy all three.
              1. Not only.
              2. Prove it.
              3a. Evidence that it would be achieved through pure raw power? - don't bother, I have proved it's not.
              3b. Evidence that McKay obtained this information outside of the satellite's computers?

              Which it didn't.
              Which is completely irrelevant, if you could pay attention.
              So I see that's all you have to say. Nice concession, again.
              I have demonstrated that the SGC made an estimation of what would be necessary to take down two goa'uld ships, and their previsions fell short on two points.
              First, they didn't predict the existence of shields. Secondly, had the nukes exploded near the shields, their yields would have not been enough to knock them down.

              And now, you want to believe that the SGC exactly knew what to do against an enemy they had very little information about, even less about their capital ships?
              Makes no sense.

              Oh, so you're admitting that a wraith ship can be destroyed by the above then?
              No. I was talking about the tank.

              {snip}

              Which is forever compared to the precision timing of a nuke in order to reach critical mass. Heck, that's more time than it takes for a massive star to go supernova.
              Duh. You can't {Snip} understand something as simple as releasing several kilotons of energy within one second should have produced extremely large, white and blinding fireballs.
              {snip}.

              Maybe because you don't need them to be.
              Yes, because they can pierce shields according to exotic mechanisms.
              Again, please read {Snip}

              There's an ori beam that can't even level a mountain in one blow, and yet which manages to completely rape a Ha'tak's shield that can withstand low gigatons of energy per second.

              There's a problem. Solution: the ori beam is an exotic mechanism that can pierce shields without relying on energy overwhelming.

              You mean the episode where John uses the neural interface? And the episode where they revealed this:

              O'NEILL: Oh. Don't you have a dozen or so people already who can use the ancient technology?

              WEIR: Yeah. With concentration and training they could make it work, but John Sheppard, he does it naturally.


              You're comparing the the most gifted known human at Ancient technology with someone who doesn't have the gene at all.
              Wow. It's like only two posts since I reference the incident, and you've already forgotten/dismissed it. {snip}
              I was talking about Beckett's crazy drone that went for John's helicopter on its own. {snip}
              Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:24 AM.
              The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

              Comment


                #97
                I don't know about in the Milky Way, but if it was the Pegasus Galaxy vs. the Ori Galaxy, then you have to hand it over to the Ori. I mean, sure the Wraith would have numbers, but damn son, those halo ships are beyond anything that we have ever seen man. I mean, the Dedolace at least destroyed a couple of hive ships. The Odyssey and the Russian one didn't even make a dent in those halo ships. And as far as ground forces go, the Ori have the priors! Which could kick the Wraith's ass!
                Jack (Addressing Teal'c): You're so.....shallow!
                Daniel: Oh please, Teal'c is like one of the deepest people I know, I mean, he's so deep! Come on, tell them how deep you are. You'll be lucky if you understand this.
                Teal'c: My depth is immaterial to this converstation.
                Daniel: OH! You see!?
                Jack: No more beer for you.

                Bring back SG-1 on SciFi, or the terrorists win.

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
                  How do you know?
                  it was never intended to be a weapon, thereofore it's logical to assume seeing as the ancients had no known enemies that it wasn't heavily armored


                  Near the hull.
                  well, duh i meant on the ship as there are places which appear to be less armored or even unarmored...

                  How thick is "very thick"?
                  the picture speaks for itself it's at least a couple of dozen feet thick...

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hive_scale.jpg

                  If the Daedalus is less than 1/10th the length, less than 1/10th the width, and less than 1/10th the depth, then how much smaller is it altogether?
                  i don't know the exact size of either but i doubt you could fit a thousands deadalus's in a hive ship...

                  Or it could be proof of the effects of gravity on a non-solid bolt coposed of energy and matter, where the front portion is accelerated faster than the back portion. It could also just be proof of a standard motion blur

                  It's funny how these bolts are supposed to be vastly more powerful than the typical blast, yet the Daedalus manages to take a good handful of them at 20% shields, and manage to fly through an acretion disc to boot. (And remember, the closer it gets to the acretion disc, the more that the blasts would interfere with the shields.). It's also amazing how the people on board dont seem to shake much more than they usually do.
                  so motion made the blast appear 1000 times larger ok why didn't the hive or the deadalus have motion blur after accelerating around the black hole?

                  and most bolts fired by the wraith appear that shape so it's not down to the black hole...

                  so whats the typical blasts? certainly not the ones in Sateda seeing as most blasts we see are far larger. The deadalus was hit about 7-10 times and it's shields were failing and the fact that it can still fly through an acceleration disk shows how powerful wraith weapons are to drain asgard shields.

                  flying into the black hole interfered with wraith systems so they'd were highly inaccurate and once flying through the acceleration disk aiming would be impossible...

                  First off, most of the time, we see the engagements on the Daedalus end, so it's a moot point. Secondly, the railgun fire is a lot narrower. It would be like looking for something in a dark room armed with a laser pointer. Sure, it's powerful, the problem is that it's not efficient. Thirdly, Caldwell wouldn't be constantly ordering that they use their railguns if they were completely incapable of penetrating the armor altogether?
                  they empty thousands of rounds into the hive ships so if they were able to pierce the armor they should be hitting dozens of these weak spots you keep talking about...you can't have it both ways either rail guns can't pierce the wraith armor or the wraith have very few of these weakness i'd opt for both of them...

                  Circular Reasoning caldwell fires the rail guns so therefore they must be effective. I'd say they are effective if you hit them in the few weak spots...

                  http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...allies507.html

                  The Daedalus and the Hive ship were both hit by the same sized bolts in the same frame. The difference is that it causes a relatively large explosion on the hive ship, and a barely visible one on the Daedalus.
                  i was talking about direct hits to the hull, and explosions don't happen when energy blasts hit shields, hitting solid matter and hitting a shields are completly different...moot point

                  And hive bolts couldn't do the same thing as they seem to be doing in the above photo because...?
                  ...because armor doesn't explode, michael even said,

                  "targeting the ventral hyperdrive reactor would be most effective," so he blew up a reactor. Your not going to start saying that hives are made of explosive materials again are you

                  so basically what your saying is that the dozens of huge explosions are actually caused by armrans hitting 3 dozen weak spots causing secondary explosions? even though with thousands of hits wirh rail guns the deadalus hasn't been able to hit any?

                  It's amazing how the Wraith didn't think to protect that system a little better, considering how important and violatile it was.
                  your point, it's due to it's organic design and size that it has these flaws, show be amram causing large explosions on the hull of a wraith ship and maybe someone will believe you...

                  Evidence?
                  Ra didn't know how to use it? and in Mckay and mrs millar we can see that Z.P.M is well over half full when we're draining it...

                  There's a difference between being weak, and having a weakness.

                  Zombies in general are weak. If I shoot one in the stomach, chances are that it'll pass right through.

                  If I shoot one in the head, it's a weakness. Because not only will it pass right through, but it'll also disable them.
                  nice anology flawed as it is...it has no relevence

                  The Wraith won on sheer numbers. No matter how many you shoot down, more will show up. It would be like firing a machine gun into a beehive the size of a room, and expecting that to shut the hive ship down. It won't, not because the beehive is too strong, but becuase it's incredibly redundant.
                  yes but you keep arguing that 3 dozen amrams can destroy them and that they've got hundreds of weak spots waiting to explode, your arguements contradict each other...if we pull your points together we have a bee hive the size of a room fill with nitro gluyerin being shot at with a machine gun claiming it's very redundant...it just doesn't work

                  Again, like being in a dark room with a laser pointer. Yes, maybe I'll get lucky and find what I'm looking for in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it.
                  well seeing as the wraith hives are filled with weaknesses according to you and we have thousands of laser points it should be realatively easy...once again contradicting yourself. If the armor is so easy to pierce one of your points and the hive itself is filled with things waiting to go boom another of your points then there should be explosions going off everywhere every time we fire at them, but this doesn't happen does it.

                  Oh? Could you please cite where we've actually seen much higher yeilds, as opposed to inferring it based on nebulous feats of "Well, they once managed to damage X, which likely requires multi-gt yeilds"? For instance:

                  http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

                  I don't know, looks pretty consistent with the fireballs we saw in Sateda to me.
                  firstly STOP saying i said the wraith have multi gigaton or gigawatt as someone keeps reminding us weapons i haven't made a single point on this but i have shown pictures as valid as yours showing higher wraith yields which you have been unsuccessful in debunking...

                  much higher yields...the hive and misbegotten seeing as you keep bringing it up...
                  Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Originally posted by kharaa View Post
                    Hiroshima was 22 kilotons.

                    I don't think any bolts from almost any of the weapons are gonna create anywhere NEAR a gigaton level explosion. I would like to point out for the third time, the energy weapons being used by the wraith ori goauld.. ect ect, are not releasing GIGATONS of energy, but maybe.. GIGAWATTS! >.<
                    In Homecoming, you can pretty much gauge the strength of the Ha'tak blasts taking down Anubis's shields are in the AMRAM range based on the fact that you see them hitting buildings.

                    Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                    In that case of warheads fired at enemy ships, they're turned into missiles for necessary reasons.
                    Except that aside from season 1 when the SGC program was still being kept top secret to the of the world, we've never seen multi-gigaton nukes fired at enemy ships.

                    The light suspiciously turn into a luminous 2 km wide cloud.
                    Oh, you measured the planet cloud and the planet, did you?

                    Me:
                    Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.

                    You:
                    1. Prove that they're stuck with that.
                    2. The number is not a reference to the power of the nuke but a reference to time.
                    CALDWELL: I want all operable missile tubes loaded with Mark Three tactical warheads.
                    KLEINMAN: That’d be every one of our nukes, sir.


                    In Siege, they make no mention of being low on nukes, although they do make a mention of how they shouldn't bother "wasting ordnance," and Caldwelll seems to listen. Between then and NML, they make no new attempts to fire nukes, and don't use any mre of them. So it's entirely possible that they still had Mark 8's on board, didn't see the use of "wasting ordnance," and switched to to a lower yeild model that they could fire in bulk.

                    Ah, because now a greyish contrail due to a mix between the gas' own colour and the luminosity of the sun = bright flash.
                    It's bright enough to be seen from space in broad daylight.

                    If it hits near the camera, it's normal.
                    Sure, if it releases a lot of light that floods the area, it is.

                    I gave you evidence that the cruisers have systems that would require huge amounts of energy. What's hard to understand?
                    Non-sequitor. Having systems that have huge amounts of energy doesn't change the fact that the blasts we saw didnt have much power.

                    No, I'm just insiting that you prove your assertion, or retract.
                    I've already posted numerous empirical examples showing that it's not that hard to see things from space. You have yet to post to the contrary.

                    1. Not only.
                    2. Prove it.
                    WEIR: Alright, we have our city specs, mission reports and tactical assessments all ready to go. What else?
                    McKAY: Well, I’ve included a ton of data that we’ve been able to decipher from the Ancient database.


                    SHEPPARD: And you think it’s powerful enough to take out a Wraith hive ship?
                    McKAY: According to the Ancient database, it should be able to take out all three when fully charged.


                    So information on the Wraith ship was in the database, and Atlantis transmitted all the tactical information and information they could dicipher. Since the only reason they would bother sending the message in the first place was because the three hive ships were on the way, it is highly unlikely that they would send an SOS without looking up the specs first, so that SG1 would know what they were in for. (Remember, SGA didn't know that SGC would find a ZPM, and for all they knew, this would be the absolute last bit of information that SGC would recieve prior to the city getting destroyed and all the information lost forever. The main threat would be that the Wraith would eventually find their way to Earth, at which point, Earth would have to be prepared.)

                    3a. Evidence that it would be achieved through pure raw power? - don't bother, I have proved it's not.
                    Right, just like I can prove that a microwave works on "exotic principles" for the very same reason. "How is it that microwave radiation can manage to heat up this pizza in under a minute, without heating up the air as well? Obviously, it can't work on a DET principle!" (Actually, no. The microwave works like it does because it emits energy on a wavelength that that is absorbed by water. Pizza has a higher water content than air, and therefore, absorbs the energy more readily.).

                    The same thing applies if the Ancient weapons work by, say, hurling highly charged particles designed to rip through the ship. "Why is it that these bullets can tear down the wall, causing heat, but don't really heat up the air as they pass through? Obviously, they must be exotic!" (Actually, no. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the heat energy has to come from somewhere, mainly from the bullet stopping. The wall is more effective at stopping the bullet than the air does, and thus, heats up to a greater degree.)

                    Your examples of "proof" are inconsistent with reality.

                    Secondly, had the nukes exploded near the shields, their yields would have not been enough to knock them down.
                    Oh, so you have a alternate scene where the nuke detonated succesfully, do you? Is it on the DVD?

                    BTW, nukes are not the same thing as attack points. For instance, firing two 500 MT nukes at a ship would be far more efficient than firing a single 1GT nuke at a ship, simply because of the energy lost due to the inverse square law.

                    And now, you want to believe that the SGC exactly knew what to do against an enemy they had very little information about, even less about their capital ships?
                    Except for that thing called the Ancient database, sure.

                    Duh. You just can't even understand something as simple as releasing several kilotons of energy within one second should have produced extremely large, white and blinding fireballs.
                    Because it doesn't. Nuclear explosions are timed within 100 nanoseconds within a perfectly spherical lens (e.g., the smallest possible shape you can make with any given volume.). In order to make your statement true, you would have to add many, many qualifiers and specific parameters, which weren't in place here.

                    Actually, your example of arguing that the Ancient Satellite is like a nuke and therefore should set off explosions like a nuke does is an example of a false analogy, property p being the specific parameters that allows a nuclear explosion to occur in the first place.

                    Yes, because they can pierce shields according to exotic mechanisms.
                    There's an ori beam that can't even level a mountain in one blow, and yet which manages to completely rape a Ha'tak's shield that can withstand low gigatons of energy per second.
                    See above. Arguing "Even though we didn't see it withstand a 1-GT explosion, I still think it could" is not a valid argument.

                    I was talking about Beckett's crazy drone that went for John's helicopter on its own. Care to follow, or you'd prefer to deny this?
                    BECKETT: The second I shut my eyes, I could see you see, I felt power I've never had before, I had it dancing across the sky... it was magical it really was. They're lucky, I don't know where it came from I just tried to concentrate and the drone shut itself down *chuckles*

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
                      it was never intended to be a weapon, thereofore it's logical to assume seeing as the ancients had no known enemies that it wasn't heavily armored
                      If they had no enemies, then where did the plague come from?

                      the picture speaks for itself it's at least a couple of dozen feet thick...
                      And I have no problem believing that the Ori beams can pass through that.

                      i don't know the exact size of either but i doubt you could fit a thousands deadalus's in a hive ship...
                      Basic geometry would tend to disagree.

                      so motion made the blast appear 1000 times larger ok why didn't the hive or the deadalus have motion blur after accelerating around the black hole?
                      Because they were moving away from/towards the camera rather than across it, and weren't primary light sources in themself?

                      The deadalus was hit about 7-10 times and it's shields were failing and the fact that it can still fly through an acceleration disk shows how powerful wraith weapons are to drain asgard shields.
                      Yes, where as Ori beams are completely ineffective on Asgard shields.

                      they empty thousands of rounds into the hive ships so if they were able to pierce the armor
                      Thousands of rounds on a ship 11 km across? Big deal.

                      Circular Reasoning caldwell fires the rail guns so therefore they must be effective.
                      Circular reasoning uses a premise that presumes the conclusion is true. e.g., Mark III must be multi-GT, because they can damage something that would require a multi-GT weapon to damage (Like the Mark III nuke.). The fact that Caldwell uses them can be independently verified.

                      i was talking about direct hits to the hull, and explosions don't happen when energy blasts hit shields
                      Caps from Allies disagree.

                      so basically what your saying is that the dozens of huge explosions are actually caused by armrans hitting 3 dozen weak spots causing secondary explosions? even though with thousands of hits wirh rail guns the deadalus hasn't been able to hit any?
                      1) Hive blasts can cover a far greater area than railgun fire, and therefore, have a more likely chance of hitting a weak spot.

                      2) Wraith ships would know to find the weak spots better than the 304 would.

                      your point, it's due to it's organic design and size that it has these flaws, show be amram causing large explosions on the hull of a wraith ship and maybe someone will believe you...
                      Watch allies. Most of the missiles get intercepted, but one makes it through.

                      well seeing as the wraith hives are filled with weaknesses according to you and we have thousands of laser points it should be realatively easy...
                      Oh, so the Daedalus has thousands of railguns now?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by 82
                        In Homecoming, you can pretty much gauge the strength of the Ha'tak blasts taking down Anubis's shields are in the AMRAM range based on the fact that you see them hitting buildings.
                        There was a deal with Baal not to harm the people down there, and the shields were working with a limited efficiency, in that their frequency let a large percentage of bolts pass through.
                        Incidentally, it shows that you don't need exceptionally strong weapons do destroy the superstructure of one of the best Goa'uld ships out there.
                        Which has a direct signification on the ori weapons.

                        Except that aside from season 1 when the SGC program was still being kept top secret to the of the world, we've never seen multi-gigaton nukes fired at enemy ships.
                        Does this mean that you at least accept the existence of multi megaton weapons?

                        Besides, the fact that SGC is a secret has no relevance here.
                        For a long time, the Prometheus relied on low yield weapons. The Prometheus has never been a true warship, as it never had the capacity to engage capital ships, and despite her shields, could sill be harmed by the sheer momentum of weapon fire coming from Al'keshes, even after the upgrade.
                        Naqahdah comes in spades on many worlds.

                        Oh, you measured the planet cloud and the planet, did you?
                        Again, you don't pay attention. We're talking about No Man's Land.
                        The fireball is mesured in comparison to the hiveship's size.

                        CALDWELL: I want all operable missile tubes loaded with Mark Three tactical warheads.
                        KLEINMAN: That’d be every one of our nukes, sir.

                        In Siege, they make no mention of being low on nukes, although they do make a mention of how they shouldn't bother "wasting ordnance," and Caldwelll seems to listen. Between then and NML, they make no new attempts to fire nukes, and don't use any mre of them. So it's entirely possible that they still had Mark 8's on board, didn't see the use of "wasting ordnance," and switched to to a lower yeild model that they could fire in bulk.
                        If they still had mark eights onboard, Kleinman's comment would make no sense, as simple as that.
                        But that's a side issue. The affair is to know the yield of a TW mk3.
                        There's no direct evidence to know that.
                        In the end, it does not really matter, because we know that the lowest nuke they ever had was in the megaton range, and it was a TW mk8.
                        I don't think we've heard of mk3s before that, and the missiles the Prometheus was using in spades until it was supposed to get railguns instead were not nuclear warheads.
                        What this shows is that the Daedalus fired nukes at the hiveship, and it left no noticeable damage to the hull, even if apparently, the radiations damaged certain organic parts.
                        This of course should put to rest, once more, your Sateda syndrome.

                        It's bright enough to be seen from space in broad daylight.
                        The ground of the planet is bright enough to be seen from space in broad daylight. We're talking about massive flases of light, not a contrail which already happens to be greyish white by default.
                        Concession accepted.

                        Sure, if it releases a lot of light that floods the area, it is.
                        Check the caps and the video. It's nothing exceptionnal when the camera is far enough from the explosions (see). Even the screengrab is not that illuminated in fact, and certainly not enough to be of any significance to illuminate a thick cloud layer, sitting kilometers above.
                        Your point is moot, your argument was ridiculous from the get go anyway, but this proves just how it really was.
                        Concession accepted.

                        Non-sequitor. Having systems that have huge amounts of energy doesn't change the fact that the blasts we saw didnt have much power.
                        It's not a non-sequitor. It's just that you claimed that the ship had no power to back it up. Maybe next time you'll use proper words, and specify you were talking about weapons to back it up, whatever that's supposed to mean knowing that cruisers took part of the bombardment which drained the ZPM-shield couple in Siege part 3.
                        No, I think you just have no point.

                        I've already posted numerous empirical examples showing that it's not that hard to see things from space. You have yet to post to the contrary.
                        And you constantly miss the point. The point is not to know if you can see things from space. We can see the ocean from space. We can see forests from space.
                        The point is to support your absurd claim that Sateda/AMRAM level weaponry will be able to cause massive flashes that will both correspond to Misbegotten/NASA shot of lightning.
                        You constantly fail at that.

                        WEIR: Alright, we have our city specs, mission reports and tactical assessments all ready to go. What else?
                        McKAY: Well, I’ve included a ton of data that we’ve been able to decipher from the Ancient database.
                        Tactical assesments from what? Ah, yes, ground engagements and eventually, dogfights between puddle jumpers and darts, plus one single line seen as below:

                        SHEPPARD: And you think it’s powerful enough to take out a Wraith hive ship?
                        McKAY: According to the Ancient database, it should be able to take out all three when fully charged.


                        So information on the Wraith ship was in the database, and Atlantis transmitted all the tactical information and information they could dicipher. Since the only reason they would bother sending the message in the first place was because the three hive ships were on the way, it is highly unlikely that they would send an SOS without looking up the specs first, so that SG1 would know what they were in for. (Remember, SGA didn't know that SGC would find a ZPM, and for all they knew, this would be the absolute last bit of information that SGC would recieve prior to the city getting destroyed and all the information lost forever. The main threat would be that the Wraith would eventually find their way to Earth, at which point, Earth would have to be prepared.)
                        No, they sent the data because they were about to loose Atlantis, and thus its database, forever.
                        The fact that it had a line about "a fully charged satellite = 3 hiveships down" is pretty much all the evidence you can bring to the table about tactical knowledge that could prove useful against Wraith capital ships. Beyond that, you know nothing.

                        It's only since Allies that they discovered all they wanted to know. Main rooms, central systems, weaknesses, etc. And from that, they could then, and only then, devise a plan to exploit the hiveship's own internal life support systems.

                        Besides, from Allies:

                        ZELENKA: Well, the ships are massive, (he shoves himself across the floor on his chair to another computer) but because of their mainly organic design, they have a number of external weaknesses.
                        When you point to a ship having a number of external weaknesses, it means that the whole rest has none. Not hard to understand is it? You've held the same silly argument against Buba.

                        Now, remember that your argument was that they knew about the weak spots and, above all, that those mines would be enough to take out the Wraith hiveships.
                        Well, bad news for you, because the satellite relies on a focused exotic beam, while the nukes do not.
                        Therefore, it's a damn seriously flawed leap of logic to claim that with information A and unrelated information B, they could claim that those low gigaton mines would take out hiveships from a good distance.

                        They could eventually partially damage the external weak spots, which for all instents and purposes, have no consequence on the structural integrity of the hiveship as a whole.
                        The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                        Comment


                          Right, just like I can prove that a microwave works on "exotic principles" for the very same reason. "How is it that microwave radiation can manage to heat up this pizza in under a minute, without heating up the air as well? Obviously, it can't work on a DET principle!" (Actually, no. The microwave works like it does because it emits energy on a wavelength that that is absorbed by water. Pizza has a higher water content than air, and therefore, absorbs the energy more readily.).

                          The same thing applies if the Ancient weapons work by, say, hurling highly charged particles designed to rip through the ship. "Why is it that these bullets can tear down the wall, causing heat, but don't really heat up the air as they pass through? Obviously, they must be exotic!" (Actually, no. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the heat energy has to come from somewhere, mainly from the bullet stopping. The wall is more effective at stopping the bullet than the air does, and thus, heats up to a greater degree.)
                          Your examples of "proof" are inconsistent with reality.
                          O. M. G.
                          This is just getting insane. Your analogies, once more, are completely meaningless, mainly because you compare systems which have little to do with the levels of energy we're dealing with here.

                          We have proved that it takes powerful nukes to start dealing internal damage to some organic components, though it does near to nothing to Wraith armor (the ones in NML didn't even scratch the damn ship).
                          Yet, with a lantean beam that went though it like butter, you claim that when the level of energy (necessary to vaporize wraith armor in an instant) will almost instantly vaporize the walls and hardware inside the hiveship with kilotons of energy, all surrounded by an atmosphere, it will not produce nuclear level explosions.

                          This is like arguing that dumping kilotons of energy over one second in a very tight zone in an atmosphere will not produce a nuclear level huge fireball.
                          *mod snip*
                          I mean, you realize the non sensical nature of your claim, right?
                          {snip}

                          Oh, so you have a alternate scene where the nuke detonated succesfully, do you? Is it on the DVD?
                          *mod snip*

                          BTW, nukes are not the same thing as attack points. For instance, firing two 500 MT nukes at a ship would be far more efficient than firing a single 1GT nuke at a ship, simply because of the energy lost due to the inverse square law.
                          Just like it's better to use a plentyful kiloton nukes instead of a fat megaton nuke. Safe that it's totally irrelevant.
                          That tactic is only useful if you actually mind about dealing an even level of damage across a whole surface, not when you want to deal damage at one point with the maximu output possible, in the hope that one single strike will be enough to cripple a 11 km long behemoth like a hiveship. There, you go with the biggest warheads available.

                          Again, those TW mk3 could easily be in the high megaton/low gigaton range.
                          The mk rating has no relevance to the yield.

                          Except for that thing called the Ancient database, sure.
                          Argument debunked.

                          Because it doesn't. Nuclear explosions are timed within 100 nanoseconds within a perfectly spherical lens (e.g., the smallest possible shape you can make with any given volume.). In order to make your statement true, you would have to add many, many qualifiers and specific parameters, which weren't in place here.
                          Even when a nuclear fireball cools down, it still remains extremely luminous for several seconds after detonation.

                          *** side point.
                          Source: Hide and Seek.

                          WEIR: As far as we know, this gate is the only Stargate in the Pegasus galaxy that is capable of dialing earth, which would make it the last line of defense against the wraith. If they're going to attack which we must consider a very real threat. We simply cannot let them gain control of this complex.

                          PETER: If both codes are properly entered the naquada generator will overload. It will take 30 seconds.

                          FORD: You sure it will do enough damage.

                          MCKAY: Ever seen a 20 kiloton nuclear explosion?
                          We're not even sure it's the maximum yield. Hot Zone would suggest an even higher yield. Which would not help your point at all, 82.

                          Actually, your example of arguing that the Ancient Satellite is like a nuke and therefore should set off explosions like a nuke does is an example of a false analogy, property p being the specific parameters that allows a nuclear explosion to occur in the first place.
                          No, it's not a false analogy. I'm like arguing with a guy who claims that releasing 3.3 kilotons of energy on a tree, in the middle of the country side, within one second, will not produce a large nuclear level luminous fireball.
                          Obviously!
                          We're *only* talking about a 13.8072 terawatts weapon here.
                          I can only applaude.

                          See above. Arguing "Even though we didn't see it withstand a 1-GT explosion, I still think it could" is not a valid argument.
                          Same flawed reasoning.
                          We have a weapon able to pierce a multi high megaton/low gigaton shield in one strike and still not level a low pile of agglomerated sand in any particular nuclear fashion, with two persons standing less than 500~600 meters away not even being remotely threatened, and you still claim that ori beams purely work on direct energy transfers.

                          It is totally right people!

                          BECKETT: The second I shut my eyes, I could see you see, I felt power I've never had before, I had it dancing across the sky... it was magical it really was. They're lucky, I don't know where it came from I just tried to concentrate and the drone shut itself down *chuckles*
                          And? Is that the proof that Beckett actually piloted the drone and took his best shot at trying to destroy the helicopter?
                          Of course not! It's like you have not even watched the episode.
                          He was actually trying to shut it down, and nevermind that mental order interference, the drone was still well more than able to target the fast moving vessel, based on whatever signature and energy emissions. Tip: energy emission = power source. Power source = sensitive piece of equipment.
                          Which finely proves my point about a drone's independency.
                          So back to NML, where we either have that legion of drones badly programmed (so badly programmed that they were dodging the darts), or a hiveships being particularily low on internal weakpoints. Both replies fit.
                          Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:29 AM. Reason: calling others stupid and twits
                          The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                            There was a deal with Baal not to harm the people down there
                            The shields were working at 40% efficiency. It's not much of a deal for Baal if you have to turn your weapons down to less than 40% in the process.

                            Incidentally, it shows that you don't need exceptionally strong weapons do destroy the superstructure of one of the best Goa'uld ships out there.
                            Apparently you don't need them for hive ship either, as evident by 302s.

                            Which has a direct signification on the ori weapons.

                            Besides, the fact that SGC is a secret has no relevance here.
                            It is when it comes to the disclosure of their nuclear program.

                            The fireball is mesured in comparison to the hiveship's size.
                            Exactly how do you have a fireball in a vacume? What you saw was a flash of light, not a physical fireball.

                            The affair is to know the yield of a TW mk3. There's no direct evidence to know that.
                            My point exactly. You don't know.

                            We're talking about massive flases of light,
                            Oh, you've quantified the luminosity then in terms of the total number of lumins?

                            Check the caps and the video. It's nothing exceptionnal when the camera is far enough from the explosions (see).
                            http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...rgate7108.html

                            Wow, so light emitted from Wraith blasts is inconsistent. See MW's comments.

                            And you constantly miss the point. The point is not to know if you can see things from space. We can see the ocean from space. We can see forests from space.
                            Can we see highways from space? Dams from space? Contrails from space?

                            Tactical assesments from what?
                            WEIR: Hold on a second, Colonel. I don't think you fully grasp our situation here.

                            EVERETT: You have three Wraith hive ships bearing down on your position and precious little to defend yourselves with. That about sum it up?

                            McKAY: You got our message.

                            EVERETT: We got your message.


                            The fact that it had a line about "a fully charged satellite = 3 hiveships down" is pretty much all the evidence you can bring to the table about tactical knowledge that could prove useful against Wraith capital ships. Beyond that, you know nothing.
                            And you know less. Less than the characters, that is. You're trying to tell me that your estimates of Wraith durability are billions of times better than their estimates, even though they've never been terribly surprised by the durability of wraith ships or the strength of their weapons since Siege, even though their initial estimates were supposedly off by a billion fold by your calculations. Sorry, I just have a hard time believing that.

                            It's only since Allies that they discovered all they wanted to know. Main rooms, central systems, weaknesses, etc.
                            None of which is relevant to the issue of, "I need this much force to punch through this much armor." The only reason they needed to know the central systems is because they had the retro virus (which the ancients didn't.). The only reason they need to know about external weaknesses is because they're low on drones, which means they have a hard time penetrating all the way through.

                            When you point to a ship having a number of external weaknesses, it means that the whole rest has none.
                            Right, just like a zombie only has a "weakness" when you shoot it in the head. Everywhere else, it can keep on walking.

                            Now, remember that your argument was that they knew about the weak spots and, above all, that those mines would be enough to take out the Wraith hiveships.
                            You don't understand how a mine works, do you?

                            Therefore, it's a damn seriously flawed leap of logic to claim that with information A and unrelated information B, they could claim that those low gigaton mines would take out hiveships from a good distance.
                            Blame Carter and McKay for the calculations. I trust them more than I would trust you. It's funny how neither of them seem to be presenting any of the objections that you are, despite the fact that McKay saw the Ancient weapon first hand, and would have a much better grasp of whether or not it was "exotic."

                            This is just getting insane. Your analogies, once more, are completely meaningless, mainly because you compare systems which have little to do with the levels of energy we're dealing with here.
                            Once again, there's a logical format for criticizing analogies you disagree with it. Feel free to use it. Otherwise, I'm going to conclude that your only reason for dismissal is the fact that it disagrees with you.

                            This is like arguing that dumping kilotons of energy over one second in a very tight zone in an atmosphere will not produce a nuclear level huge fireball.
                            That's downright dense.
                            I mean, you realize the non sensical nature of your claim, right?
                            http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-ridicule.html

                            [b]"This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false. This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!""

                            *sigh*
                            {snip}
                            I mean, what don't you understand in the use of the word IF?
                            That's again your incessant need to make a point out of nothing, nevermind if it's totally irrelevant. {snip}
                            Your statement that I was replying to: Secondly, had the nukes exploded near the shields, their yields would have not been enough to knock them down.

                            I'm not seeing the "if" there. {snip}

                            That tactic is only useful if you actually mind about dealing an even level of damage across a whole surface
                            And why wouldn't you want to do that?

                            On the show, John expresses specific concern about the futility of wasting ordinance. Caldwell accepts his advise and they try a new strategy. Yet you now want me to believe that they went the exact opposite strategy, to waste as much as possible.

                            We're not even sure it's the maximum yield. Hot Zone would suggest an even higher yield. Which would not help your point at all, 82.
                            1) Oh... so McKay asked "Ever seen a 20 kiloton nuclear explosion" in reference to self-destruct the city to the point beyond salvage, that wasn't going to be the maximum. Right.
                            2) Nothing in Hot Zone suggests a higher yeild, since the entire point was not to destroy the city.

                            No, it's not a false analogy. I'm like arguing with a guy who claims that releasing 3.3 kilotons of energy on a tree, in the middle of the country side, within one second
                            Oh, so a Wraith hive ship is only has the thickness of a tree, now?

                            Oh, and it wasn't once second. It was closer to five.

                            That, and you have no way of knowing that the Satellite even used 33% of the generator's total energy. That's the maximum it could have used, but not the [i]minimum it could have used. For all you know, it only used 1% of the generators total energy. At which point, your complaints would officially be addressed, just not in the way that you would like.

                            And? Is that the proof that Beckett actually piloted the drone and took his best shot at trying to destroy the helicopter?
                            Hey, remember when McKay was learning to fly?

                            SHEPPARD: Try to fly the “baby” in a straight line.
                            McKAY: I am flying in a straight line.
                            (A screen appears superimposed over the windshield. It shows a straight line in comparison to the route that Rodney is flying, which is all over the place.)
                            SHEPPARD: Not so much.


                            Now, what does that scene prove?

                            1) The PJ's fly entirely on their own, and was deciding to fly in a zigzag for its own reasons. (and we do know the have limitted autopilot for use of the DHD)

                            2) McKay was in full control, and intentionally decided to zigzag.

                            3) McKay was in control, but was still getting used to the control system, since he was unfamiliar with how to effectively handle the mental interface.

                            Gee... I'm guessing number 3. Real world ships take training practice and training in order to control. Weapons take practice and training to learn to control as well. Why would it be any different for Ancient tech?

                            He was actually trying to shut it down, and nevermind that mental order interference, the drone was still well more than able to target the fast moving vessel, based on whatever signature and energy emissions.
                            Beckett was trying to shut the drone down? You mean like the time that McKay was trying to shut the personal shield generator down as well?

                            WEIR: Well I have another theory; we know that there is a mental component to using ancient technology.

                            BECKETT: You don't have to remind me; I experienced it first hand with that drone weapon back on Earth.

                            WEIR: Exactly so don't you think, it stands to reason that McKay should be able to shut this thing off with his mind.

                            BECKETT: Are you suggesting he doesn't want to shut it off?

                            WEIR: We may be settling in here but this place is still pretty intimidating. I mean a giant abandoned city full of things way beyond our level of understanding, impending threat of attack from the wraith.

                            BECKETT: No question it gets bloody creepy here at night.

                            WEIR: So I'm not saying it's conscious but perhaps subconsciously.

                            BECKETT: I don't think he wants to die of dehydration.

                            WEIR: No neither do I, but he's not there yet.

                            BECKETT: You think when it comes down to it the shield will just shut itself down.


                            Now look at Beckett again from Rising. This is a guy who was experience, in his words, "I felt power I've never had before, I had it dancing across the sky... it was magical it really was." Even afterwards, he still seemed to be captivated by the experience on conscious level, to say nothing of the subconscious rush of being drunk with power. You know how drug addicts are willing to hurt people for a fix? Apparently, Ancient technology can present a certain high as well. Why would Beckett say "I felt power" if he was feeling completely helpless? Why would he say "I had it dancing across the sky" if he was only a voyeur to the experience? Why would he say "it was magical" unless he actually enjoyed it? In your scenario, shouldn't Beckett be saying things like, "It was a terrible experience, a nightmare, like watching your own body do things that you weren't in control of. I saw the drone doing things, and I was absolutely helpess to do anything to stop it until the very last moment!" But he didn't. He said the exact opposite.

                            Of course, he obviously didn't want to actually kill anyone no matter how much he enjoyed the experience, so once it "came down to it," he was able to shut the drone down. Which is exactly the same thing that happens to McKay, surprise, surprise. A man who was also cpativated by his interface with Ancient technology, but for different reasons (e.g., expressing sheer joy over the fact that bullets couldn't harm him.). And please, don't call this another false analogy, because Beckett himself is the one who makes the comparison.
                            Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:33 AM.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
                              If they had no enemies, then where did the plague come from?
                              it could have been natural or made by the ori, but the fact remains that to our knowledge the ancients had no adversaries in the MW, and the monument on dakara isn't even a weapon, if it was meant to be a weapon of war and hard to destroy it most likely would have had shields...

                              And I have no problem believing that the Ori beams can pass through that.
                              even though it takes several hits to punch through rock, i'm not saying it would be completely unable to pierce the wraith hull but it's going to take several hits to do it...

                              Basic geometry would tend to disagree.
                              whatever, seeing as we don't know the dimensions of either there's no way to tell, and even if we did it's irrelevent to what we're discussing.

                              Because they were moving away from/towards the camera rather than across it, and weren't primary light sources in themself?
                              actually at some points the deadalus did turn so it was accross the camera, so do you think the blasts was 1000 times larger due to motion blur? wouldn't motion blur just stretch the blasts? because the blasts were many times wider aswell...

                              Yes, where as Ori beams are completely ineffective on Asgard shields.
                              your point? i was making a comparassion to ori beam weapons i was demonstrating the fact that wraith weapons have varying yields, if you can't address the point made then you should say nothing.

                              Thousands of rounds on a ship 11 km across? Big deal.
                              firstly i don't think the ship is 11 km accross but your whole arguement has been that the wraith armor is easy to pierce and the ship is littered with exploding weaknesses once again conflicting points you can't have both.

                              Either the wraith have strong armor but weak internal systems or the wraith have weak armor and very few internal weaknesses you can't have both and myself and others have posted evidence to show that A) wraith armor is not weak and is in fact strong and durable

                              and

                              B) the ships is not filled with weaknesses which can explode

                              ok, what do you think the chances would be of hitting an exploding weak spot if you sprayed a target with litterally thousands of armor piercing projectiles and one of those weaknesses occur every 10 feet? - this is what you're saying not me this is what all your points boil down to and quite frankely its absurd. The fact is despite what you've said we've never seen anything to support your claims that can't be explained through common sense.

                              Circular reasoning uses a premise that presumes the conclusion is true. e.g., Mark III must be multi-GT, because they can damage something that would require a multi-GT weapon to damage (Like the Mark III nuke.). The fact that Caldwell uses them can be independently verified.
                              what you were saying was that, Hive armor can't be that strong because caldwell shoots them with rail guns therefore because he shoots them they must be effective though we've been shown consistantly that rails guns are ineffective against hive ships. Now you're probably going to come back back with your zombie analogy or your bee hive one but the fact remains that your offer point is that hives are highly explosive and i've already shown you that you can't have both.

                              Caps from Allies disagree.
                              how do they disagree?

                              1) Hive blasts can cover a far greater area than railgun fire, and therefore, have a more likely chance of hitting a weak spot.

                              2) Wraith ships would know to find the weak spots better than the 304 would.
                              1)rubbish, rail guns spray a large area with bullets the chances of hitting one of those weak spots you keep talking about would be enoumous seeing as they occur every 10 feet right:rollseyes:

                              2) the show disagrees as the the same areas of the hive (e.g. the side) are hit several times by both the deadalus and other hives (who used different sized bolts btw as seen in misbegotten), this points to the shots seen in the hive as being of a higher yields as neither other hives or the deadalus could reproduce the same results despite multiple hits in the same area.

                              Watch allies. Most of the missiles get intercepted, but one makes it through.
                              sorry i don't know what you mean, you responded to my point about an amram by showing a reference to a nuke

                              Oh, so the Daedalus has thousands of railguns now?
                              no, but it fires thousands of bullets
                              Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
                                it could have been natural or made by the ori, but the fact remains that to our knowledge the ancients had no adversaries in the MW
                                If the plague had occurred naturally, it would have been fairly easy to quaranteen and contain.

                                whatever, seeing as we don't know the dimensions of either there's no way to tell, and even if we did it's irrelevent to what we're discussing.
                                You can assess the relative length and width, which tells you that the hive ship is at least 100 times bigger. Are you telling me that depth wouldn't be proprtional as well?

                                actually at some points the deadalus did turn so it was accross the camera
                                But not a light source, or reflecting a light source in itself. It was the exact opposite of that. It was a shadow.

                                firstly i don't think the ship is 11 km accross but your whole arguement has been that the wraith armor is easy to pierce and the ship is littered with exploding weaknesses once again conflicting points you can't have both.
                                Sure I can. Something can be easy to find with Wraith weapons fired by Wraith ships, and no so easy with railguns fired by human ships. Wraith blasts and railguns are not equal.

                                ok, what do you think the chances would be of hitting an exploding weak spot if you sprayed a target with litterally thousands of armor piercing projectiles and one of those weaknesses occur every 10 feet?
                                Depends on how big the spray was, how big the weak spots are, and how long I had to fire onto the right spot before I penetratred deep enough. For instance, if I have to keep a sustained burst for even one second, then I have to move very, very slowly, which means that it takes me a lot longer. Also keep in mind that as McKay said, motion in space is relative, which makes it even harder to keep track.

                                what you were saying was that, Hive armor can't be that strong because caldwell shoots them with rail guns therefore because he shoots them they must be effective though we've been shown consistantly that rails guns are ineffective against hive ships.
                                It's hard to say, actually. For instance, during the fight in Allies, I would have assumed that the damage from the first hive fight was minimal, and that the primary hive ship didn't suffer much damage. And I would be wrong, since the official reason why the Wraith ships gvie SGA a copy of the database is so that they could "come up with some fixes for the damage that the Wraith hive sustained during its last battle." The fact is, we don't know what's going on inside of these hive ships when Caldwell fires on them. We barely know what's going on outside of the hive ships, because FX shots are expensive, and the writers would prefer to show the scene from the cockpit if possible. All we know is that Caldwell fires at the hive ships, which aren't enough to shut them down. Which makes sense, because as Zelenka points out, the hive ships are massive.

                                But the fact is, at the beginning of season two, Everett believes that 6 GT level nukes will be sufficient to serve as Atlantis's main line in defense. Sheppard apparently thinks they can get by on even less. McKay never expresses any skepticism whatsoever on whether or not that's enough firepower.

                                Throughout season 2, Caldwell continues to believe that his railguns can at least do some damage to the Wraith ships. He dos this right up until the final battle, and there really isn't anything that he sees in season three that suggests that his assessments were wrong. The fact that the same Wraith ship that he's been firing railguns at can survive a Mark III doesn't seem to catch him by surprise at all. Either Caldwell really likes to waste ammo, or the Mark III's aren't that strong. Of these two options, one of them is consistent with the show's recurring theme of international oversight and international scrutiny.

                                how do they disagree?
                                http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...allies781.html

                                Here's a better one from Siege:

                                http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate17484.html
                                http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate17485.html

                                You notice the plumes coming from the shield?

                                1)rubbish, rail guns spray a large area with bullets the chances of hitting one of those weak spots you keep talking about would be enoumous seeing as they occur every 10 feet right:rollseyes:
                                No, I said John was able to hit at least 3 of them with a weapon that had a 10 foot range.

                                2) the show disagrees as the the same areas of the hive (e.g. the side)
                                "The side" is a pretty big area. Can you be more specific?

                                no, but it fires thousands of bullets
                                Yes, and a laser pointer fires trillions of photons. What's your point?
                                Last edited by Schrodinger82; 24 October 2006, 01:03 PM.

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