Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Megathread - Versus battles

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #76
    Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post
    As I've already showed you the last time, the bolts were moving too slowly to have come all the way from orbit in the given time.
    You realize that the show is rarely in real time to begin with, right?

    I believe you dodged that by claiming that there was actually a 11km hiveship right over their heads that didn't cast and obvious shadow,
    First, where in the world is this new 11 km figure coming from? Second, you're assuming that it was midday and that the sun was directly overhead, despite the fact that Ronan had been fighting for a considerable period of time, and it would have taken SGA a good while to find him.

    Why don't you describe for me the exact proccess through which a hiveship's weapon battery creates a thunderstorm
    Don't have to. All I have to show is that the wraith weaponry creates light. Which it does. That light can then be absorbed the same way that lightning is. Do you think the atmospheric particle really cares whether a photon of light comes from a thunderstorm or a hive weapon?

    If it could be regenerated in a matter of days and/or didn't actually impede the ships function in any meaningful way.
    Function, no. Armor, yes.

    You do it every time you discard an example of higher firepower in favour of preserving your ideas about C4 being all that's needed to kill hiveships.
    That's not circular by any definition, since we know how strong the C4 is, and we know how much damage it managed to do to the ship. Both facts of which can be independently verified without having to rely on the other.

    You know calling fallacy to everything the otherside says doesn't make it so {snip}
    No, but it does point out the fact that you constantly rely on them.

    All that goes on in the misbegotten example is the explosions are measured relative to the planet and a yield is derived from what would be required to make explosions of that size.
    Right, just like the lightning pictures I posted from NASA, which are even more impressive than the ones you posted from Misbegotten, show that the lightning bolts must be creating explosions dozens of miles across. Right?

    It's a fun little game.

    "The Wraith are uber impressive, because they managed to survive an acretion disc! No way could the Ori harm them!"
    "Uh.. the 304 managed to survive the acretion disc as well. At 20% shields. And that was before it got hit by the Wraith weapons, and before it flew in close. But we all know that the Ori still managed to hurt it."
    "Yeah, but that doesn't count!"

    "The Wraith are ubder impressive, because of this picture."
    "I can post a similar picture of lightning. That picture in itself doesn't prove anything."
    "Yeah, but that doesn't count!"
    Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:05 AM.

    Comment


      #77
      This is a TV show. The Writers themselves don't think about these things as hard as you're thinking about them. They know that most viewers probably don't either.

      They write what is expedient. When it comes to ordnance, ships, tech etc they contradict each other at whim without noticing, dependant on what the story needs and what the FX chaps can manage.

      That is why you can 'prove' that [show variable X]<[show variable Y]<[show variable Z], AND that [show variable Z]<<[show variable X].

      Me, all that I can prove is that some people get far too worked up about this. I'm not entirely sure why.
      Last edited by Madeleine; 21 October 2006, 10:17 PM.

      Madeleine

      Comment


        #78
        I agree completely with that, MW.

        Comment


          #79
          Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
          Way to reverse the burden of proof, there. Sorry, but you're the one making a completely arbitrary claim of the yeild, it's now up to you to prove it. It's not on me to prove the negative.
          There's nothing arbitrary. First, YOU show me that the Daedalus carries nukes that range below the megaton ones and gigaton ones. You haven't last time I asked you to do so. You only evaded the question.
          We've only seen megaton and gigaton warheads.

          This puts a fair figure on how much the wraith armor had to withstand. It's not that hard, see.

          Then of course, there's Misbegotten. Besides the nature of the explosions that are in dispute, you keep claiming that my reasoning is ciruclar.
          Which demonstrates that you're completely lost. You just don't know what a CR is. You keep reusing the term on and on, but that's silly.
          There's no circular reasoning, because what I do is estimate a firepower from a single event, and then, based on the figure obtained, estimate the amount of energy necessary to blow up a wraith hiveship by looking at how long it took for an enemy hiveship to shoot it down as fast as possible.
          It's purely linear.
          Get it?

          http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

          Yes, there are absolutley no clouds in this picture at all, which means that we can definitively rule out there existence. Just out of curiousity, what would it look like if there was a cloud at that precise spot? Would it look any different from the lack of clouds at the exact spots depicted in the lightning picture? How do you know that there isn't a cloud at that "precise spot", that just happens to be illuminated? Sure looks like it could be a cloud to me.
          Well well well. What does it change? Have you demonstrated that there are (enough) clouds precisely above ground zero?
          I don't think so.
          Needless to say that in the very picture you post, there are large zones which are completely clear as well all around ground zero.

          Just out of curiosuity, even if we assumed your circular premise/conclusion was true, how is it that you can have a multi-gt nuke that doesn't generate any clouds whatsoever (e.g., clouds of dust, smoke, etc.)? Contradict, much? Or the fact that normal dust/dirt/water vapor can absorb light as well, even in the absense of actual clouds.
          There are fireballs that will be created. With a constant bombardment, fireballs won't have time to cool down that much. Which means that there will be a zone of powerful light that won't shrink until the bombardment stops or moves away, or slows down.
          The clouds you're talking about are the fireballs cooling down after reaching maximum size. So those clouds are not going to be particularily bigger than their original fireballs.
          They'll eventually slightly inflate if more energy is pumped into them, that is, if more fireballs are added, and equally heat up.

          Right. That's why the writers had the Wraith go through the trouble of having the Wraith throw asteroids at them oon a RADAR screen. Because it would be so much cooler and dramatic looking than, say... showing hive ships pressing forward through the space mines, and the space mines having absolutley no effect.
          No, the writers decided to reveal that the hive armor was millions of times stronger than anyone could have possibly anticipated by showing an ambigous scene in "Misbegotten...
          Writers' intent is pretty much irrelevant here, since it does not show that the Wraith knew about the yield of those mines.
          Imagine they were multi-teraton mines, or more. There's just no way they could know how powerful the mines were, and the writers just wanted the Wraith to throw rocks at mines. But YOU want it to be a proof that the Wraith would not want to venture close to the mines. That is, I'm afraid, only your wishful thinking.
          The Wraith throw rocks at those objects, and see what happens. It's, at best, nothing more than a test.
          So drop that point because you have no evidence whatsoever to bring to the table on this.

          ..." one episode after Sheppard damaged their hyperdrives with a simple 302.
          Because if you want to show your audiences that the hive armor is that strong, that's really the best way to do it, in such a way that's so subtle and ambiguous 99.999% of your audience doesn't even notice.
          Is it that problematic if there's a weak spot?
          Sure, it's a bad one (nothing's perfect, especially coming from the crew behind SGA stories), but it's not a reason to declare the whole ship as being as tough as a tincan.
          Is an armored tank 100% protected by its armor? No.
          Plus, damaging the main hyperdrive didn't really seem to threaten the crew's survival. Sure, it's an important system, but it's not vital.
          More, it was easily repaired by a human crew, while that same human crew could not repair their own damn ship... which was never touched by any bolt once the shields dropped mind you. In all cases, it speaks in the advantage of the Wraith.

          BTW, that's also the best time to imply that the hive weapons are also billions of times stronger than what they would later be depicted at in "Sateda."
          The hell. Sateda is not a proof of maximum firepower, so drop your argumentation, it's getting old and has been debunked by several persons here, including me. There's enoug evidence that the bolts can be largely more powerful.
          Have you seen those Daedalus dwarfing bolts exchanged in The Hive for example?
          Ah, why ask? We've seen that you're just going to ignore this, as always, and constantly rehash Sateda as the ultimate and unique basis of evidence.

          You still don't quite understand the difference between heat and temperature, do you? For instance, suppose that the visible matter that the tail of a comet was heated to a million degrees, only for a US space shuttle to pass through it. Would the space shuttle melt on on contact? No, because even though the tail might have a temperature of several millions degrees, it's stretched so thin that the amount of available heat/energy is relatively low. In the case of the acretion disc, at the matter would basically be crushes and atomized and spread out evenly across the event horizon.
          I find it particularily amusing that you claim that, despite talking about an accretion disk of a matter crunching black hole, you actually dare say that it will be just like a comet's tail: completely stretched out, above all coming with a low density, so the average ratio of temperature/volume will be extremely low.
          High levels physics about calculations of densities and radiations emissions in the vicinity of a event horizon - that are well beyond my own capacities - still mention from time to time high densities, and it would be rather curious to be told that densities are rather low instead of high in the proximity of the event horizon, or even half way between the EH's edge and the borders of the accretion disk.

          For example, despite a sun's corona being sensibly hotter than its own surface, the fact that matter is spread so thin means that in the global scheme, even if each particle will be extremely hot, there'll be so much space between each one of them that the average temperature will be particularily low in comparison.
          Our sun's photosphere, yet, essentially heated up by core radiations, is *only* measured at 5800 kelvins.

          The point of contention is to know if the hiveship went inside the accretion disk. The Daedalus did, as the video proves it:
          Video.

          Looking at the 304's trajectory and her speed, and the fact that it draws a line in the matter soon after it has entirely disappeared from the screen,
          and considering that the hiveship flew at the same speed and went for the same trajectory, safe if the ship suddenly pulled an angular turn that's far improbable considering the mass of the vessel, it also went into the disc.

          If the hiveship did not get into that disc, in the end, it's not problem, because we know that Wraith capital ships are able to quickly drain 304's shield, the same shield which, at 20%, is still able to withstand the energies, gravities and eventually friction when flying full throttle through a black hole's accretion disc.
          That means mean Wraith weapons.

          It's interesting when you realize that the heat of an accretion disk is due to differential friction within the fluidic matter.
          Of course, a large craft such as a hiveship, already entering an accretion disc at tens of kilometers per second, and now flying in far excess of the relative speeds producing the heat in that same disc, would largely enhance the amount of friction with the hull.
          In the end, I would claim that it's impossible to think that it can't be extremely significant in terms of energy generation.

          So even without the solid numbers, should we suggest that the figures are going to be negligible, or, on the contrary, rather of consequence?


          We know that the 304's aren't capable of going anywhere near light speed even under ideal conditions, which means that it would have to be a considerable distance away from the acretion disc in order to escape the gravity.
          You may want to watch the episode. The 304 went right through the accretion disc.
          Remember that the ship came in at a high velocity, and used the slingshot manoeuver to gain even more speed.

          That's not even counting the effects that gravity would have on the ship itself.
          Exactly, that same gravity that would have a stress effect on a 11 km armored ship actually fighting against the gravity when flying away from the black hole.
          The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

          Comment


            #80
            Completely different principles. It's like comparing someone lightning a stick of dynamite, to someone using a flamethrower. Both method disperse energy, but one of them releases that energy at a fixed point in space and a fixed point in time, where as the other spreads it out. "Gee, this stick of dynamite can create a shockwave that can break the speed of sound, so the stuff I hit with my flamethrower should do the same thing! I have decades and decades of physics that say that's how it works!"
            That analogy is deeply flawed. {Mod Snip}.

            Hey, come to think of it, the sun is a giant nuclear reactor far more powerful than any bomb. I guess that the sun must also be able to "direct transmission of energy into surrounding matter, especially air, to fuel gigantic fireballs" as well. Roughly 122 PW of solar energy reaches the Earth every day. And sure enough, it also manages to set off an equivalent number of nuclear explosions. To say that it doesn't would completely contradict everything that Mr. O knows about physicsl
            {Mod Snip}
            With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs.

            What do you think will happen when the so called DET beam will hit the inner structure of the hiveship, and quickly flame up the internal matter with kilotons of energy?

            According to you, this beam principally works on the principles of DET, a corner stone to your anti-argument.
            That's the way it supposedly went through the armor, vaporizing it and all the matter in between both sides of the ship.

            So we should have a multi kiloton beam that will vaporize all the ship's internal matter on its way, and of course, this happening inside an environment full of air, should produce large fireballs and blinding flashes, because that's just what you'll get when high levels of energy will be suddenly released on a focused zone in a very short timeframe.

            However, none of those happen.

            So the beam's destruction mechanism has a larger exotic part than a raw one, and thus your argument against armor toughness regarding direct energy transfer is null and void.

            Wow, so the ships are 11 km now?
            Yes.
            Apparently, it should have always been that way. It seems there's a recent stargate VFX article where the art director complains that scales do get screwed up too often to his tastes, and that the hiveship was always supposed to be depicted as 11 km long.
            Funnily, the measurements I made did provide a figure relatively close: more than 10.9... km, and it contained a fair margin of movement.

            Sheppard managed to walk 11 km throughout the ship finding weak points, completely undetected while searching for his friends? How long was he there exactly, not to mention the the fact that he would have needed enough time for a return trip as every Wraith was now waking up and coming after him? Either John is really fast, or the Wraith must suck even more than we originally thought.
            The Wraith ship and the crew, as a whole, were almost all asleep. There's not much resistance to find there, even when the Keeper was killed.

            Really? She did, did she?

            CARTER: Weapons must be depleted. Hopefully you hit some vital systems.
            (A few moments later, the mothership blows up.)
            O’NEILL: Think that was vital?
            CARTER: Relatively speaking. (She grins at Jack, who rocks his head in a “not bad” way. Sam looks out of the window, smiling, then blows out a breath of relief.)
            Ok, it's not Carter. It's the whole situation, from Carter hopefully thinking they hit a vital part, to the way O'neill replies in a not very convinced way.

            Might have something to do with the fact that Anubis wasn't flying a Ha'tak, and he only had one chance to take it out.
            Obviously not. In both situations, Jack only had one chance to take each ship out.
            He still sent a whole horde of hundreds of drones against the Ha'taks, and just as much against the supership.
            Too bad for someone who had a whole knowledge plus an alteran outpost to support him.
            Your argument is moot.

            Yes, which would be really handy too, since we all know that Zelenka had the ATA treatment and could control the drones via the neural interface. Oh wait!
            Tzzzz!
            Wrong answer. McKay remotely controlled a drone in The Tower just by using a laptop plugged to a firing rack, all that within a few minutes. You tell me that Zelenka and co couldn't do that for all the time they had their hands on the Orion's system?
            Riiight.


            By all indications, the drones were acting on autopilot, and we have nothing that suggests that they are capable of seeking out weak points on their own.
            We have the drone in Condemned hitting a cruiser and going for the engines. The projectile was mostly uncontrolled safe for the initial path, and no one in the expedition team had any idea of a cruiser's cross sections.
            After that, we have the rogue drone in Rising seeking out for John's helicopter, despite Beckett not wanting to shoot down anything, and actually trying to deactivate the weapon.

            Seeing as how the Ancient database apparently didn't even have such basic tips as "Well, their hyperdrives are pretty vulnerable, so you can try attacking those," it doesn't seem like the ancients would have programmed in known weak points into the drone either.
            Consindering that Ancients usually fire many drones in battle, manually targetting for weak spots when you've got a legion of fiery drillers to impale to leave more holes than matter in a large target, it would not be necessary to go for such specificities.
            However, it does not prove it can't exist. Above all, it would prove extremely useful in the case you'd have only a few missiles left.

            ...
            Here's a shot of a lightning strike from an amateur photographer:
            http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ST_600x450.jpg

            And here's a shot of a lightning strike from space:
            http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

            Wow, common sense must tell you that the lightning bolt in the second picture must be a billion times bigger than the lightning bolt from the first picture, right? It's not like it could simply be the fact that in one picture, you're observing the strike directly, where as in the second you're seeing the resulting light as it gets absorbed by atmospheric particulate. No, obviously, they must be completley different types of lightning altogether.
            He was comparing bolts in vacuum. Yours atmosphere related pics could not be more irrelevant actually.

            {Mod Snip}
            Last edited by TameFarrar; 22 October 2006, 04:09 PM. Reason: Personal attacks/Bickering are NOT welcome and Disrespecting a Moderator is definitely not allowed
            The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

            Comment


              #81
              Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
              Are you saying that a mountain that the Ancients carved the most dangerous weapon in the galaxy from is the same thing as a stone monument?
              whatever is underneath the rock is irrelevent as it still took several hits to pierce the rock in the first place, the device underneath still withstood several hits and it wasn't designed to withstand direct attack...

              we know the armor varies in thickness and we don't know where the room was anyway...

              he's another picture showing wraith armor it's clearly very thick...

              http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0087.html

              we can see the armor clearly in this picture, so yes the armor is very thick in places in other places it's not so thick byt over the main body where the majority or Ori hits will be the armor is thick...

              Did you neglect that part where the Daedalus is less than 1/1000th its total size?
              firstly the deadalus isn't 1/1000th of it's size and secondly it's irrelevent...

              The hive blasts have a matter component, proven by the fact that it has an explosion on shields. The only type of matter that maintains its shape in a vacume is solid matter. Just out of curiousity, what would proof of this look like, other than hive balsts looking large after being fired from considerable distance?
              despite what you say shrod we've never seen this happen in stargate and the fact that we've seen many different sizes of wraith bolts is proof enough of varying firepower...

              the distance they were fired from is no larger than any other time we've seen them and the fact remains we've never seen any energy bolt change size after being fired...

              And what happens when the Ori beam makes it's way inside?
              it will cause damage but it will take several shots to get there...


              Ever hear of a sample size? If just plants 5-10 blocks of C4 with an extremely short range of less than 10 feet, and hits 3 weak points, then that tells me that weak points must be VERY common to have such good odds. Presumably, the opposing hive ships would have better knowledge of where the weak points are than John did.
              or maybe they hit the same weak stop? your argue is ridiculas even you must see it, like i said if the weak spots are so comon we'd see explosions from rail guns hitting them...

              Wraith blasts consistently show much larger explosions when they hit Wraith armor than when they hit anything else (unshielded Daedalus, shielded Daedalus, etc.), even in the same frame of the same episode. Further, we have one AMRAM hitting the hive hull in "Allies," which results in a VERY large explosion.
              we've never seen the same sized bolt hit both a hive and the deadalus so your argue meant is moot, the bolts that hit the deadalus have been consistantly smaller than the ones hitting hive ships...

              the amram impact in no mans land caused a secondary explosion after it hit the hyperdrive...

              primary detonation
              http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0344.html

              secondary explosion
              http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0345.html

              No, but Daniel and Vala have, plus they had Carter for guidance.
              the fact of matter is that internal explosions cause far more damage than external ones, if you stuck a piece of C4 to the side of a hive ship it would do nothing...

              1) You have no proof that the specific areas were unarmored.

              2) Just how strong are the railguns to begin with? For instance, the SGA crew had no problem dealing with the recoil from the railguns meant for the Prometheus, despite Newton's third law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction.
              1)the absense of visable armor is proof enough and the fact it is a known weak stop...
              2)they fire slugs at mach 5 so they'd have pretty good armor piercing abilities

              Not if I was behind an armored wall and knew they couldn't get to me.
              the fact remains the hive thought they were under attack from a rival hive and reacted accordingly they weren't threatened by the single dart but by the hive ship on it's side...

              He said that the shield could have lasted another hundred years if they hadn't arrived and turned on all the lights. What's your point?
              when the Z.P.M is that low on power anything you do drains years off the shield life, the Z.P.M in siege was pretty full

              If you want to focus on the other explosions, then focus on the other explosions. But if you keep bringing up "Misbegotten," then I'll keep on debunking it.
              i haven't brought up misbegotten once and you haven't debunked anything so far...


              Nope. The rest of the ship could easily be just as weak, the only difference being that the external weakness also has a major system that you can harm in the process. Hive ships are incredibly large, and have a tendency to boune back. However, some systems won't be as easy to bounce back from than others. In fact, here's Zelenka's exact statement:

              ZELENKA: Well, the ships are massive, (he shoves himself across the floor on his chair to another computer) but because of their mainly organic design, they have a number of external weaknesses.
              he would be saying they have external weaknesses if the whole ship was just as weak use your head...

              Note the adjective. The biggest thing that the Hive ship going for it is its size, not it's toughness. Shooting it up with a railgun would be like jamming a needle through an actual beehive. Sure it can probably pass through, but it won't do you much good, since the size of the needle is insignificant compared to the size of the hive, it's unlikely that you'll hit anything important, and the attack is easily avoided in general. Or, think of it like a zombie movie, where it takes the characters forever to realize that they should shoot the zombies in the head. The head is the weak point, even though the bullets will still pass through just about anywhere.
              there's so much wrong with that. Firstly if rail guns could simply pass through hive ships the ships would be beaten very quickly seeing as a single lucky hit could destroy them, do you even believe half the stuff you right?


              Here's a shot of a lightning strike from an amateur photographer:
              http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ST_600x450.jpg

              And here's a shot of a lightning strike from space:
              http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

              Wow, common sense must tell you that the lightning bolt in the second picture must be a billion times bigger than the lightning bolt from the first picture, right? It's not like it could simply be the fact that in one picture, you're observing the strike directly, where as in the second you're seeing the resulting light as it gets absorbed by atmospheric particulate. No, obviously, they must be completley different types of lightning altogether.
              thats completely irrelevent seeing as i was talking about wraith blasts in a vacuum...

              basically you've seen sateda and despite the huge amounts of evidence showing much higher yields you've decided sateda is completely unfallable and is more credible than all the evidence we've put forward against it...
              Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

              Comment


                #82
                Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                There's nothing arbitrary.
                Fine, then cite me on examples where they give the exact yeilds of their on board tacticals, and I'll concede that your number isn't arbitrary.

                There's no circular reasoning, because what I do is estimate a firepower from a single event,
                Yes, with absolutely nothing of substance to back any of your observations or calculations up, other than your arbitrary say so.

                Well well well. What does it change? Have you demonstrated that there are (enough) clouds precisely above ground zero?
                So what's that translucent white spot at the place getting hit if it's not a cloud?

                Needless to say that in the very picture you post, there are large zones which are completely clear as well all around ground zero.
                There are large zones which are completely clear as well all around the lightning bolts in the NASA shot too. What's your point? Clear surrounding areas in no way proves that that the precise spot in question in question.

                There are fireballs that will be created. With a constant bombardment, fireballs won't have time to cool down that much. Which means that there will be a zone of powerful light that won't shrink until the bombardment stops or moves away, or slows down
                Wow, it's amazing how the atmosphere didn't heat up that much while bombarding Atlantis in the Siege then, huh? Where were the massive fireballs then? Oh, I know!

                http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...iege3x642.html

                Each one of those splotches is apparently in the multi-GT range.

                Writers' intent is pretty much irrelevant here, since it does not show that the Wraith knew about the yield of those mines.
                No, but we know that SGC expected them to be enough. And yes, they did have Wraith specs on file. e.g., they knew that the Ancient satellite powered by a single naq generator would've been enough to take out all three hive ships, if not for a bad circuit. SGA then sent the specs they had to SGA. So, as of the Siege, 6 GT level space mines is considered to be a sufficient main line of defense against Wraith hive ships.

                Is an armored tank 100% protected by its armor? No.
                No, but it would be protected in it's important systems. For instance, woould you expect it's fuel tank to be protected? Dang right I would.

                The hell. Sateda is not a proof of maximum firepower, so drop your argumentation, it's getting old and has been debunked by several persons here, including me.
                Right. So the Wraith were firing all over the surface, but weren't actually trying to kill them. Maybe they were trying to preserve the planet for historical purposes, turn it into a museum or something.

                High levels physics about calculations of densities and radiations emissions in the vicinity of a event horizon - that are well beyond my own capacities
                Then it's impossible to gauge, so you might as well stop trying to calculate an exact feat for something you don't actually undestand. See MW's comments on how the writers think of these things.

                If the hiveship did not get into that disc, in the end, it's not problem, because we know that Wraith capital ships are able to quickly drain 304's shield, the same shield which, at 20%, is still able to withstand the energies, gravities and eventually friction when flying full throttle through a black hole's accretion disc.
                Yes, and the same shield that the Ori were able to take down to 50% in one hit, at a time when they were intentionally leaving behind survivors to tell the tale.

                A 304 that was down to 20% shields before getting hit by multiple hive blasts, only to get in even closer to the black hole. BTW, if it went down to 20% just by being in the presence of a black hole, then wouldn't the effects of that same black hole become exponentially greater the closer the Daedalus got to it according to the inverse square law? e.g., 5% at half the distances, 2.2% at 1/3 the distance, etc.? Obviously, you apparently don't need much to survive the acretion disc.

                Again, see MW's point on this matter.

                That analogy is deeply flawed. {Mod Snip}.
                Here's the model for addressing a false analogy. If you think my analogy is deeply flawed, then you will have no problems following the guidelines for proof: http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm

                With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs
                http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

                Giant fireballs indeed.

                What do you think will happen when the so called DET beam will hit the inner structure of the hiveship, and quickly flame up the internal matter with kilotons of energy?
                Depends. Is all that enery being concentrated on a single spot, and released in a single moment in time? Or is it being spread out to prevent the creation of a shockwave?

                What happened when the Ethon Satellite hit the Prometheus? Were their massive nuclear explosions then?

                The Wraith ship and the crew, as a whole, were almost all asleep.
                They were waking up as John was leaving the room. How long does it take someone to run 11 km through completely familiar terrain from there?

                Ok, it's not Carter. It's the whole situation, from Carter hopefully thinking they hit a vital part, to the way O'neill replies in a not very convinced way.
                http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/writ...understatement

                Obviously not. In both situations, Jack only had one chance to take each ship out.
                He still sent a whole horde of hundreds of drones against the Ha'taks, and just as much against the supership.
                And if he had more drones to use against the Ha'tak, he would've used those too.

                CARTER: Keep firing, sir.
                O’NEILL: Nothing’s happening.


                McKay remotely controlled a drone in The Tower just by using a laptop plugged to a firing rack, all that within a few minutes
                Really? So you had a stopwatch and timed him, did you?

                You tell me that Zelenka and co couldn't do that for all the time they had their hands on the Orion's system?
                Yes, because going straight up against the force of gravity, which they're pretty much forced to do as part of their automatic firing procedure in order to leave the room in the first place, is really the the same thing as programming it in to seek out specific systems when you don't even have the blueprints at hand, and pretty much have to explain to the drones how to seek them out from memory. ("Uh... look for the blue thing. No, no, the other blue thing.). Oh, let's not forget the fact that Zelenka already had his hands full as it was fixing all the other systems.

                We have the drone in Condemned hitting a cruiser and going for the engines.
                With John directing it. John =/= Zelenka.

                Above all, it would prove extremely useful in the case you'd have only a few missiles left.
                That's what the mental interface is for.

                Face it, you're just as nerdy as us, if not more considering the attention, obstination and amount of time you were spending on threads a few months ago.
                I'm not the one insisting that the Ori beams couldn't possible harm something that withstood an acretion disc when it's already been established that they can do exactly that, now am I?

                I'm also not the one insisting that the standard Ori beam is weaker in yeild than a single hive blast based on the effects of the Ori beam hitting a mountain in atmosphere, while ignoring the effects of the hive blasts hitting the shield in "siege" and the ground in "Sateda"
                Last edited by TameFarrar; 22 October 2006, 04:12 PM.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
                  whatever is underneath the rock is irrelevent as it still took several hits to pierce the rock in the first place, the device underneath still withstood several hits and it wasn't designed to withstand direct attack...
                  How do you know?

                  we know the armor varies in thickness and we don't know where the room was anyway...
                  Near the hull.

                  he's another picture showing wraith armor it's clearly very thick...
                  How thick is "very thick"?

                  firstly the deadalus isn't 1/1000th of it's size and secondly it's irrelevent...
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hive_scale.jpg

                  If the Daedalus is less than 1/10th the length, less than 1/10th the width, and less than 1/10th the depth, then how much smaller is it altogether?

                  despite what you say shrod we've never seen this happen in stargate and the fact that we've seen many different sizes of wraith bolts is proof enough of varying firepower...
                  Or it could be proof of the effects of gravity on a non-solid bolt coposed of energy and matter, where the front portion is accelerated faster than the back portion. It could also just be proof of a standard motion blur.

                  It's funny how these bolts are supposed to be vastly more powerful than the typical blast, yet the Daedalus manages to take a good handful of them at 20% shields, and manage to fly through an acretion disc to boot. (And remember, the closer it gets to the acretion disc, the more that the blasts would interfere with the shields.). It's also amazing how the people on board dont seem to shake much more than they usually do.

                  or maybe they hit the same weak stop? your argue is ridiculas even you must see it, like i said if the weak spots are so comon we'd see explosions from rail guns hitting them...
                  First off, most of the time, we see the engagements on the Daedalus end, so it's a moot point. Secondly, the railgun fire is a lot narrower. It would be like looking for something in a dark room armed with a laser pointer. Sure, it's powerful, the problem is that it's not efficient. Thirdly, Caldwell wouldn't be constantly ordering that they use their railguns if they were completely incapable of penetrating the armor altogether?

                  we've never seen the same sized bolt hit both a hive and the deadalus
                  http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...allies507.html

                  The Daedalus and the Hive ship were both hit by the same sized bolts in the same frame. The difference is that it causes a relatively large explosion on the hive ship, and a barely visible one on the Daedalus.

                  the amram impact in no mans land caused a secondary explosion after it hit the hyperdrive...
                  And hive bolts couldn't do the same thing as they seem to be doing in the above photo because...?

                  It's amazing how the Wraith didn't think to protect that system a little better, considering how important and violatile it was.

                  when the Z.P.M is that low on power anything you do drains years off the shield life, the Z.P.M in siege was pretty full
                  Evidence?

                  he would be saying they have external weaknesses if the whole ship was just as weak use your head...
                  There's a difference between being weak, and having a weakness.

                  Zombies in general are weak. If I shoot one in the stomach, chances are that it'll pass right through.

                  If I shoot one in the head, it's a weakness. Because not only will it pass right through, but it'll also disable them.

                  The Wraith won on sheer numbers. No matter how many you shoot down, more will show up. It would be like firing a machine gun into a beehive the size of a room, and expecting that to shut the hive ship down. It won't, not because the beehive is too strong, but becuase it's incredibly redundant.

                  there's so much wrong with that. Firstly if rail guns could simply pass through hive ships the ships would be beaten very quickly seeing as a single lucky hit could destroy them
                  Again, like being in a dark room with a laser pointer. Yes, maybe I'll get lucky and find what I'm looking for in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it.

                  basically you've seen sateda and despite the huge amounts of evidence showing much higher yields
                  Oh? Could you please cite where we've actually seen much higher yeilds, as opposed to inferring it based on nebulous feats of "Well, they once managed to damage X, which likely requires multi-gt yeilds"? For instance:

                  http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

                  I don't know, looks pretty consistent with the fireballs we saw in Sateda to me.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Again, why with energy weapons, are we using gt for a non explosive, afaik and iirc energy weapons are based in watts, kilowats, gigawats...terawats..pecawatts?

                    edit, and I certainally wasn't saying that the main cannon on the ori ship was weaker then a single wraith blast. but that the ori cannon wasn't enough to take a hive ship in a single shot like a Ha'tak, and the combined firepower of the entire ship, should been enough to handle a Ori ship.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Originally posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
                      Fine, then cite me on examples where they give the exact yeilds of their on board tacticals, and I'll concede that your number isn't arbitrary.
                      Nuke exploding over Atlantis. Low megaton range considering the fireball size. At least, largely over several hundreds of kilotons.
                      Gigaton missiles used against capships in season 1/2. The human would not revert to weaker missiles as the anti-capship ordinance for the assault & defense fleet, especially after years of fighting against the Goa'uld and realizing how powerful their shields are (based on Enemies, high megatons or low gigatons per second, for the very low end figures, if not multiple hundreds or thousands of gigatons, depending on the shiel model supported). It would be utter stupidity to stick with AMRAM level sort of ordinance.
                      The nuke fireball - in space - in No Man's Land, already +2 km wide in a fraction of a second. Yet no structural damage seen once the hiveship is brought back to Atlantis.
                      Want to continue, or you're still going to deny all these elements, supporting high yields ordinance fired by the 304s, in favor of some rubbish logic to keep going on with how AMRAM missiles that are all what's necessary to shoot down wraith ships?
                      {Snip}

                      Yes, with absolutely nothing of substance to back any of your observations or calculations up, other than your arbitrary say so.
                      Plain. Wrong. It's pretty much straight forward, and until you can prove that there were significant clouds just above ground zero, I'm afraid all you're doing is flailing your arms in wide open fields. {Snip}
                      So what's that translucent white spot at the place getting hit if it's not a cloud?
                      And how do you determine it's translucent exactly? Oh, just because white hot fireballs would turn to greyish pale as they cool down on the nightside of a planet?

                      Wow, it's amazing how the atmosphere didn't heat up that much while bombarding Atlantis in the Siege then, huh? Where were the massive fireballs then? Oh, I know!

                      http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...iege3x642.html

                      Each one of those splotches is apparently in the multi-GT range.
                      {snip} Last time I adressed the nature of those bolts, I actually stipulated that they were specific shield draining bolts, sucking petatons of energy per second. Those same bolts were mostly absorbed by the shield, and were actually draining the ZPM. But you'd first need to admit that before going any further.
                      So it's quite irrelevant to the rest of the more DET based weaponry.

                      Plus your whole Sateda argument is just absurd. If you claim that those explosions are the maximum yields we could expect from Wraith weapons, then there's just no chance they could actually produce enough light to be diffused through clouds, and then seen from space across several kilometers.

                      No, but we know that SGC expected them to be enough. And yes, they did have Wraith specs on file. e.g., they knew that the Ancient satellite powered by a single naq generator would've been enough to take out all three hive ships, if not for a bad circuit. SGA then sent the specs they had to SGA. So, as of the Siege, 6 GT level space mines is considered to be a sufficient main line of defense against Wraith hive ships.
                      {Snip} What was the last burst of information they sent back to the SGC before Siege Part II? Let me tell you: Letters from Pegasus. Incidentally, the very first time they ever saw hiveships and cruisers. So what did they know about Wraith hiveships at that moment, and how much experience did they have in terms of open warfare against Wraith capital ships? Absolute none. Zip. Zero. Nadda. Rien.
                      So whatever they estimated would be enough, or sounded big for any human used to deal with, at best, megaton level nukes on Earth, was just a pure guess. Just like they estimated their strategy would work and would see the Wraith run straight into the mines. Which proved to be a total failure.
                      Last time the SGC expected a given yield to be enough after one out-of-universe season against an all new enemy, we saw them fire one digit low gigaton nukes against shields that would have easily withstood that amount of energy anyway (without even counting that much less than only half of the energy of the nuke would have actually had an impact on the goa'uld shields).
                      Thank you for playing.

                      No, but it would be protected in it's important systems. For instance, woould you expect it's fuel tank to be protected? Dang right I would.
                      Are its catterpillars protected? Nope. The analogy is more than good, considering that those are part of the tank's drives, just like the sublight and FTL drives are to a hiveships, and both of them are exposed to the open space. And this actually applies to all ships in Stargate.

                      Then it's impossible to gauge, so you might as well stop trying to calculate an exact feat for something you don't actually undestand. See MW's comments on how the writers think of these things.
                      Writers' intentions have nothing to do with that.
                      And it's not impossible to gauge. Just very hard considering our respectives abilities.

                      Yes, and the same shield that the Ori were able to take down to 50% in one hit, at a time when they were intentionally leaving behind survivors to tell the tale.
                      Yes, with the same weapons that featured so poorly against a pile of solidified dust. You keep denying the fact that the Ori weapons have quite nothing to do with DET, but are shield piercing weapons.
                      Please watch Camelot or whatever else episode where Ha'taks blow up. Do we see blinding super nuclear explosions, fueled by all the material and gases ignited by the so called energy of an ori beam, when those goa'uld capships explode? No, not really. There are big explosions, but they're nowhere what you'd get with beams supposedly carrying enough energy to overwhelm shields on the sheer act of direct energy transfer and over saturation.
                      Nevermind if your assertion is that those beams mainly work on pure energy transfer concerns.
                      They do not. It can't be simpler.

                      A 304 that was down to 20% shields before getting hit by multiple hive blasts, only to get in even closer to the black hole.
                      Simple. Very tough shields baby. What's so hard to understand?

                      BTW, if it went down to 20% just by being in the presence of a black hole, then wouldn't the effects of that same black hole become exponentially greater the closer the Daedalus got to it according to the inverse square law? e.g., 5% at half the distances, 2.2% at 1/3 the distance, etc.? Obviously, you apparently don't need much to survive the acretion disc.
                      Sure. I mean, it's only an accretion disc of a damn black hole.
                      The only logical and most simple explanation, for someone who actually cares to provide an explanation that ties all elements with a sense of consistency, is that even 0.001% of their shields is damn enormous and well enough to support a dive into a black hole's accretion disc.
                      Oh but sure, it then means that Wraith weapons are actually quite powerful.
                      {Snip}

                      Again, see MW's point on this matter.
                      {Snip}

                      Here's the model for addressing a false analogy. If you think my analogy is deeply flawed, then you will have no problems following the guidelines for proof: http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm
                      You'll rather prove that your analogy is actually right.

                      With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs
                      http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

                      Giant fireballs indeed.
                      Completely irrelevant indeed. We're talking about the lantean satellite.{snip}, dodge questions by refering to completely unrelated element instead of directly adressing what's at hand.
                      {snip}

                      Depends. Is all that enery being concentrated on a single spot, and released in a single moment in time? Or is it being spread out to prevent the creation of a shockwave?
                      What are you talking about? It's very simple. For the nth time, you claim that a multi kiloton beam is all that's needed to vaporize wraith capital ship armor.
                      I ask you were that wonderful energy is supposed to be when that same beam actually ignites the atmosphere and the likely more fragile materials inside the ships, when the explosions are all but puny in fact.
                      {snip}

                      What happened when the Ethon Satellite hit the Prometheus? Were their massive nuclear explosions then?
                      Irrelevant.

                      They were waking up as John was leaving the room. How long does it take someone to run 11 km through completely familiar terrain from there?
                      You understand that 11 km is the ship's lenght, right?
                      Now, tell me why you keep asking how and why John is going to run from prow to stern, because sincerely, you're just making stuff up.

                      And if he had more drones to use against the Ha'tak, he would've used those too.

                      CARTER: Keep firing, sir.
                      O’NEILL: Nothing’s happening.
                      Thanks for proving my point, and so much for his apparent knowledge. He didn't even think that those two drones would be infinitely enough to blow the crap out of that Ha'tak.
                      Talk about luck.

                      Really? So you had a stopwatch and timed him, did you?
                      Please. Are you going to tell me that McKay has been sitting in that room, with very limited air available, within at best a day, say hours considering the time that passed at the surface, is equalling the time the terran expedition actually owned the Orion?
                      {Snip}

                      Yes, because going straight up against the force of gravity, which they're pretty much forced to do as part of their automatic firing procedure in order to leave the room in the first place, is really the the same thing as programming it in to seek out specific systems when you don't even have the blueprints at hand, and pretty much have to explain to the drones how to seek them out from memory. ("Uh... look for the blue thing. No, no, the other blue thing.). Oh, let's not forget the fact that Zelenka already had his hands full as it was fixing all the other systems.
                      It simply shows that both systems can be easily programmed to go for specific targets. McKay had to actually make the drone go up at a specific location. He had to plot a course.
                      Now, Zelenka and co, with all the knowledge on hiveships, etc. and all the time they had to configure and rearm the weapons, couldn't even have the many drones shoot down a whole hiveship in just one swipe, which proves my point.
                      Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:15 AM.
                      The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                      Comment


                        #86
                        With John directing it. John =/= Zelenka.
                        How can you claim that Zelenka didn't control the weapons via the console, since he was exactly doing that?

                        That's what the mental interface is for.
                        Please adress Rising's case.

                        I'm not the one insisting that the Ori beams couldn't possible harm something that withstood an acretion disc when it's already been established that they can do exactly that, now am I?
                        You keep failing because you still work on the principle that all reactions and based on DET. Once you start thinking about low DET shield penetrating weapons (exotic stuff uh-ho), all mysteries magically get solved.

                        Sure, it actually requires enlarging your tight vision. {Snip}

                        I'm also not the one insisting that the standard Ori beam is weaker in yeild than a single hive blast based on the effects of the Ori beam hitting a mountain in atmosphere, while ignoring the effects of the hive blasts hitting the shield in "siege" and the ground in "Sateda"
                        Yes, we know that you're not the one insisting on this. Simply because you don't pay attention.
                        Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:16 AM.
                        The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Here's an interesting bit from that video Mr. Oragahn posted.

                          The Captain of the Odyssey complains that the black hole is placing tremendous strain on the sublight engines of his 304. These same type of engines were capable of pushing the ship to extremely high frac C velocities just a few episodes later when Daedalus tried to catch up to that ancient ship.

                          Some pretty hefty gravity in play here it would seem.

                          Originally posted by Schrodinger82
                          You realize that the show is rarely in real time to begin with, right?
                          No actually. I've got an awesome idea though, how 'bout you prove this sequence switched from fast forward to slow-mo.

                          In order for those bolts to have hit right behind that jumper they way they did, as it was moving away, they either had to have come from something much closer, like the commander's dart, or they had to have been homing and fired before the outcome of the fight, or the jumpers course, was even determined.

                          First, where in the world is this new 11 km figure coming from? Second, you're assuming that it was midday and that the sun was directly overhead, despite the fact that Ronan had been fighting for a considerable period of time, and it would have taken SGA a good while to find him.
                          If you want the 11km hiveship hanging completely silent and with no noticible disturbance, visual or comment from the characters you prove it was there. The episode certainly doesn't make it obvious enough for me to take on the burden to prove that it was not.

                          Don't have to. All I have to show is that the wraith weaponry creates light. Which it does. That light can then be absorbed the same way that lightning is. Do you think the atmospheric particle really cares whether a photon of light comes from a thunderstorm or a hive weapon?
                          You also have to show that it creates clouds the size of some small US states in a few minutes without causing the requisite surface damage to actually throw up that mush debris.

                          And you'll need enough light to shine through those clouds from beneath not, light them up inside the way lightning does. You can probably do it by claiming that Wraith weapons are incapable of penetrating clouds so I guess that's pretty much what I should expect to hear next right.

                          That's not circular by any definition, since we know how strong the C4 is, and we know how much damage it managed to do to the ship. Both facts of which can be independently verified without having to rely on the other.
                          We can also say that it's taken nukes, blackholes and shots from other hiveships, all of which exceed the power of a handful of c4. A sensible person faced with something like this would try to explain all of them in context together. You on the other hand just cling to the C4 and attack every other possible instance that seems higher. You've placed your conclusion first, hence circular reasoning.

                          {snip}
                          Last edited by TameFarrar; 29 October 2006, 01:17 AM.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                            Nuke exploding over Atlantis.
                            Which you don't know the yeild of to this day.

                            Gigaton missiles used against capships in season 1/2.
                            Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no.

                            The human would not revert to weaker missiles as the anti-capship ordinance
                            They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law.

                            It's pretty much straight forward, and until you can prove that there were significant clouds just above ground zero,
                            http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

                            Sure looks like a cloud to me. What other proof do you need?

                            Oh, just because white hot fireballs would turn to greyish pale as they cool down on the nightside of a planet?
                            Actually, white hot fireballs would turn red as they cool down. Which they usually are to begin with. Color temperatures and all that.

                            actually stipulated that they were specific shield draining bolts, sucking petatons of energy per second.
                            Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right.

                            If you claim that those explosions are the maximum yields we could expect from Wraith weapons, then there's just no chance they could actually produce enough light to be diffused through clouds, and then seen from space across several kilometers.
                            Sure they can. We know from Condemned that cruisers can produce huge amounts of light, despite the fact that they don't have much power to back them up. FYI, we can also see things light highways and dams from space. How much light do you think that those produce?

                            Let me tell you: Letters from Pegasus. Incidentally, the very first time they ever saw hiveships and cruisers. So what did they know about Wraith hiveships at that moment, and how much experience did they have in terms of open warfare against Wraith capital ships? Absolute none. Zip. Zero. Nadda. Rien.
                            They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC.

                            Last time the SGC expected a given yield to be enough after one out-of-universe season against an all new enemy, we saw them fire one digit low gigaton nukes against shields that would have easily withstood that amount of energy anyway
                            No, what we saw was that the nuke impacted prior to detonation, because it hit an unexpected barrier. The nuke could have had a yield of infinity, and it still wouldn't have mattered at that point, because it wouldn't have been able to achieve critical mass.

                            Are its catterpillars protected?
                            They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either.

                            Yes, with the same weapons that featured so poorly against a pile of solidified dust.
                            Yes, sort of like an elephant gun would still have trouble penetrating through hard ground. What's your point

                            The only logical and most simple explanation, for someone who actually cares to provide an explanation that ties all elements with a sense of consistency, is that even 0.001% of their shields is damn enormous and well enough to support a dive into a black hole's accretion disc.
                            Which would only make the Ori that much more enormous for taking them down 50% in one shot. The other explaination, as MW points out, is that the writers just didn't think that hard about these matters, and didn't bother to check out the actual number regarding the acretion disc before making sure that the Odyssey could do it.

                            You'll rather prove that your analogy is actually right.
                            Nukes and dynamite release their energy within a fixed point in time and a fixed point in space, thus creating a shockwave. The Ori beam, Ancient weapon, and flamethrowers do not release their energy within a fixed point in time, or a fixed point in space. Ergo, the two are not comparable. Which part of that do you disagree with?

                            Completely irrelevant indeed. We're talking about the lantean satellite.
                            So your standards be used to debunk one weapon, but not another?

                            What are you talking about? It's very simple. For the nth time, you claim that a multi kiloton beam is all that's needed to vaporize wraith capital ship armor. I ask you were that wonderful energy is supposed to be when that same beam actually ignites the atmosphere and the likely more fragile materials inside the ships, when the explosions are all but puny in fact.
                            The fragile stuff would heat up, but at a much slower rate. Since it's a slower rate, there is no shockwave. A microwave does this all the time (heating up some types of matter, but not others). Does a microwave rely on exotic principles as well?

                            You understand that 11 km is the ship's lenght, right?
                            You do realize that John planted C4 along the length, right?

                            Please. Are you going to tell me that McKay has been sitting in that room, with very limited air available, within at best a day, say hours considering the time that passed at the surface, is equalling the time the terran expedition actually owned the Orion?
                            Please, do. Amuse me.
                            At the top of Allies, McKay (Not Zelenka) is in charge of overseeing the Orion. At that point, the ship is incapable of even releasing it's drones, much less programming them. Zelenka's work is on the ground floor. Afterwards, the Wraith/SGA alliance takes top priority over work on the Orion, and McKay (who was in charge of the project) gets kidnapped. After which point, Zelenka (who wasn't in charge) now has to get the ship ready.

                            LORNE: Zelenka says she’ll fly, sir, but – as of right now – that’s about all she can do.
                            CALDWELL: You’ll have thirteen hours en route to get your weapons and shields online, but we need to leave right now to make this window. Are you go or no go?


                            As for Tower, let's see. John gives Otho the gene therapy after McKay goes underground. Prior to McKay hacking the drone, Otho declares himself the new Lord Protector. In the episode, John specifically tells him that the therapy works on only half the population, and it's unlikely that Otho would risk revealing his hand until after he was sure that, yes, the gene therapy work. The gene therapy itself takes 4 hours to work, so, which means that McKay was there at least that long.

                            How can you claim that Zelenka didn't control the weapons via the console, since he was exactly doing that?
                            Not the same way John was. It's like comparing John sitting at the chair to the fact that Zelenka can hack into it. Which brings up another point: If the drones were that easy to hack into beyond normal operations (e.g., fly straight up and lead the premises), then why would they need a gene therapy at all?

                            ZELENKA: I’ve already been given the gene weeks ago – it didn’t take.
                            Last edited by Schrodinger82; 22 October 2006, 10:58 PM.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post
                              The Captain of the Odyssey complains that the black hole is placing tremendous strain on the sublight engines of his 304. These same type of engines were capable of pushing the ship to extremely high frac C velocities just a few episodes later when Daedalus tried to catch up to that ancient ship.
                              And how how well did that go?

                              No actually. I've got an awesome idea though, how 'bout you prove this sequence switched from fast forward to slow-mo.
                              Way to strawman. This is Stargate Atlantis, not "24."

                              If you want the 11km hiveship hanging completely silent and with no noticible disturbance, visual or comment from the characters you prove it was there.
                              Well, the fact that Teyla said it was the hive ship that was going to fire on them, for one. Why would she say that, if the hive ship was too far away?

                              And you'll need enough light to shine through those clouds from beneath not, light them up inside the way lightning does.
                              Again, doesn't have to be cloud. It could be any type of dust/vapor in the atmosphere, including dust/vapor that's close to the surface. That's also why you see the bright flash coming from the Wraith weapon in "condemned," because there's enough dust/vapor in the area to absorb it.

                              We can also say that it's taken nukes, blackholes and shots from other hiveships, all of which exceed the power of a handful of c4.
                              Nukes are less effective in space, and had an unknown yeild. Blackholes apparently couldn't even stop the Odyssey. Other hiveships is circular.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                I think that the Wraith would win. The Ori have alot better technology, but the Wraith have way more numbers. The Ori fight for power, the Wraith fight for food. The Ori would probably start winning for awhile, but the Wraith would have a great come back, like the Wraith Vs the Ancients. The Ancients probably have better technology then the Ori, and they got slaughted by the Wraith, because of numbers, and the fight for the food. Personally, i would go for the Wraith, and i think they would win. The battle would go on for a long time before a winner is ancouned though.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X