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Thread: Megathread - Versus battles

  1. #81
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Are you saying that a mountain that the Ancients carved the most dangerous weapon in the galaxy from is the same thing as a stone monument?
    whatever is underneath the rock is irrelevent as it still took several hits to pierce the rock in the first place, the device underneath still withstood several hits and it wasn't designed to withstand direct attack...

    we know the armor varies in thickness and we don't know where the room was anyway...

    he's another picture showing wraith armor it's clearly very thick...

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0087.html

    we can see the armor clearly in this picture, so yes the armor is very thick in places in other places it's not so thick byt over the main body where the majority or Ori hits will be the armor is thick...

    Did you neglect that part where the Daedalus is less than 1/1000th its total size?
    firstly the deadalus isn't 1/1000th of it's size and secondly it's irrelevent...

    The hive blasts have a matter component, proven by the fact that it has an explosion on shields. The only type of matter that maintains its shape in a vacume is solid matter. Just out of curiousity, what would proof of this look like, other than hive balsts looking large after being fired from considerable distance?
    despite what you say shrod we've never seen this happen in stargate and the fact that we've seen many different sizes of wraith bolts is proof enough of varying firepower...

    the distance they were fired from is no larger than any other time we've seen them and the fact remains we've never seen any energy bolt change size after being fired...

    And what happens when the Ori beam makes it's way inside?
    it will cause damage but it will take several shots to get there...


    Ever hear of a sample size? If just plants 5-10 blocks of C4 with an extremely short range of less than 10 feet, and hits 3 weak points, then that tells me that weak points must be VERY common to have such good odds. Presumably, the opposing hive ships would have better knowledge of where the weak points are than John did.
    or maybe they hit the same weak stop? your argue is ridiculas even you must see it, like i said if the weak spots are so comon we'd see explosions from rail guns hitting them...

    Wraith blasts consistently show much larger explosions when they hit Wraith armor than when they hit anything else (unshielded Daedalus, shielded Daedalus, etc.), even in the same frame of the same episode. Further, we have one AMRAM hitting the hive hull in "Allies," which results in a VERY large explosion.
    we've never seen the same sized bolt hit both a hive and the deadalus so your argue meant is moot, the bolts that hit the deadalus have been consistantly smaller than the ones hitting hive ships...

    the amram impact in no mans land caused a secondary explosion after it hit the hyperdrive...

    primary detonation
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0344.html

    secondary explosion
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...l/nml0345.html

    No, but Daniel and Vala have, plus they had Carter for guidance.
    the fact of matter is that internal explosions cause far more damage than external ones, if you stuck a piece of C4 to the side of a hive ship it would do nothing...

    1) You have no proof that the specific areas were unarmored.

    2) Just how strong are the railguns to begin with? For instance, the SGA crew had no problem dealing with the recoil from the railguns meant for the Prometheus, despite Newton's third law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction.
    1)the absense of visable armor is proof enough and the fact it is a known weak stop...
    2)they fire slugs at mach 5 so they'd have pretty good armor piercing abilities

    Not if I was behind an armored wall and knew they couldn't get to me.
    the fact remains the hive thought they were under attack from a rival hive and reacted accordingly they weren't threatened by the single dart but by the hive ship on it's side...

    He said that the shield could have lasted another hundred years if they hadn't arrived and turned on all the lights. What's your point?
    when the Z.P.M is that low on power anything you do drains years off the shield life, the Z.P.M in siege was pretty full

    If you want to focus on the other explosions, then focus on the other explosions. But if you keep bringing up "Misbegotten," then I'll keep on debunking it.
    i haven't brought up misbegotten once and you haven't debunked anything so far...


    Nope. The rest of the ship could easily be just as weak, the only difference being that the external weakness also has a major system that you can harm in the process. Hive ships are incredibly large, and have a tendency to boune back. However, some systems won't be as easy to bounce back from than others. In fact, here's Zelenka's exact statement:

    ZELENKA: Well, the ships are massive, (he shoves himself across the floor on his chair to another computer) but because of their mainly organic design, they have a number of external weaknesses.
    he would be saying they have external weaknesses if the whole ship was just as weak use your head...

    Note the adjective. The biggest thing that the Hive ship going for it is its size, not it's toughness. Shooting it up with a railgun would be like jamming a needle through an actual beehive. Sure it can probably pass through, but it won't do you much good, since the size of the needle is insignificant compared to the size of the hive, it's unlikely that you'll hit anything important, and the attack is easily avoided in general. Or, think of it like a zombie movie, where it takes the characters forever to realize that they should shoot the zombies in the head. The head is the weak point, even though the bullets will still pass through just about anywhere.
    there's so much wrong with that. Firstly if rail guns could simply pass through hive ships the ships would be beaten very quickly seeing as a single lucky hit could destroy them, do you even believe half the stuff you right?


    Here's a shot of a lightning strike from an amateur photographer:
    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ST_600x450.jpg

    And here's a shot of a lightning strike from space:
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Wow, common sense must tell you that the lightning bolt in the second picture must be a billion times bigger than the lightning bolt from the first picture, right? It's not like it could simply be the fact that in one picture, you're observing the strike directly, where as in the second you're seeing the resulting light as it gets absorbed by atmospheric particulate. No, obviously, they must be completley different types of lightning altogether.
    thats completely irrelevent seeing as i was talking about wraith blasts in a vacuum...

    basically you've seen sateda and despite the huge amounts of evidence showing much higher yields you've decided sateda is completely unfallable and is more credible than all the evidence we've put forward against it...
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  2. #82
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    There's nothing arbitrary.
    Fine, then cite me on examples where they give the exact yeilds of their on board tacticals, and I'll concede that your number isn't arbitrary.

    There's no circular reasoning, because what I do is estimate a firepower from a single event,
    Yes, with absolutely nothing of substance to back any of your observations or calculations up, other than your arbitrary say so.

    Well well well. What does it change? Have you demonstrated that there are (enough) clouds precisely above ground zero?
    So what's that translucent white spot at the place getting hit if it's not a cloud?

    Needless to say that in the very picture you post, there are large zones which are completely clear as well all around ground zero.
    There are large zones which are completely clear as well all around the lightning bolts in the NASA shot too. What's your point? Clear surrounding areas in no way proves that that the precise spot in question in question.

    There are fireballs that will be created. With a constant bombardment, fireballs won't have time to cool down that much. Which means that there will be a zone of powerful light that won't shrink until the bombardment stops or moves away, or slows down
    Wow, it's amazing how the atmosphere didn't heat up that much while bombarding Atlantis in the Siege then, huh? Where were the massive fireballs then? Oh, I know!

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...iege3x642.html

    Each one of those splotches is apparently in the multi-GT range.

    Writers' intent is pretty much irrelevant here, since it does not show that the Wraith knew about the yield of those mines.
    No, but we know that SGC expected them to be enough. And yes, they did have Wraith specs on file. e.g., they knew that the Ancient satellite powered by a single naq generator would've been enough to take out all three hive ships, if not for a bad circuit. SGA then sent the specs they had to SGA. So, as of the Siege, 6 GT level space mines is considered to be a sufficient main line of defense against Wraith hive ships.

    Is an armored tank 100% protected by its armor? No.
    No, but it would be protected in it's important systems. For instance, woould you expect it's fuel tank to be protected? Dang right I would.

    The hell. Sateda is not a proof of maximum firepower, so drop your argumentation, it's getting old and has been debunked by several persons here, including me.
    Right. So the Wraith were firing all over the surface, but weren't actually trying to kill them. Maybe they were trying to preserve the planet for historical purposes, turn it into a museum or something.

    High levels physics about calculations of densities and radiations emissions in the vicinity of a event horizon - that are well beyond my own capacities
    Then it's impossible to gauge, so you might as well stop trying to calculate an exact feat for something you don't actually undestand. See MW's comments on how the writers think of these things.

    If the hiveship did not get into that disc, in the end, it's not problem, because we know that Wraith capital ships are able to quickly drain 304's shield, the same shield which, at 20%, is still able to withstand the energies, gravities and eventually friction when flying full throttle through a black hole's accretion disc.
    Yes, and the same shield that the Ori were able to take down to 50% in one hit, at a time when they were intentionally leaving behind survivors to tell the tale.

    A 304 that was down to 20% shields before getting hit by multiple hive blasts, only to get in even closer to the black hole. BTW, if it went down to 20% just by being in the presence of a black hole, then wouldn't the effects of that same black hole become exponentially greater the closer the Daedalus got to it according to the inverse square law? e.g., 5% at half the distances, 2.2% at 1/3 the distance, etc.? Obviously, you apparently don't need much to survive the acretion disc.

    Again, see MW's point on this matter.

    That analogy is deeply flawed. {Mod Snip}.
    Here's the model for addressing a false analogy. If you think my analogy is deeply flawed, then you will have no problems following the guidelines for proof: http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm

    With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

    Giant fireballs indeed.

    What do you think will happen when the so called DET beam will hit the inner structure of the hiveship, and quickly flame up the internal matter with kilotons of energy?
    Depends. Is all that enery being concentrated on a single spot, and released in a single moment in time? Or is it being spread out to prevent the creation of a shockwave?

    What happened when the Ethon Satellite hit the Prometheus? Were their massive nuclear explosions then?

    The Wraith ship and the crew, as a whole, were almost all asleep.
    They were waking up as John was leaving the room. How long does it take someone to run 11 km through completely familiar terrain from there?

    Ok, it's not Carter. It's the whole situation, from Carter hopefully thinking they hit a vital part, to the way O'neill replies in a not very convinced way.
    http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/writ...understatement

    Obviously not. In both situations, Jack only had one chance to take each ship out.
    He still sent a whole horde of hundreds of drones against the Ha'taks, and just as much against the supership.
    And if he had more drones to use against the Ha'tak, he would've used those too.

    CARTER: Keep firing, sir.
    O’NEILL: Nothing’s happening.


    McKay remotely controlled a drone in The Tower just by using a laptop plugged to a firing rack, all that within a few minutes
    Really? So you had a stopwatch and timed him, did you?

    You tell me that Zelenka and co couldn't do that for all the time they had their hands on the Orion's system?
    Yes, because going straight up against the force of gravity, which they're pretty much forced to do as part of their automatic firing procedure in order to leave the room in the first place, is really the the same thing as programming it in to seek out specific systems when you don't even have the blueprints at hand, and pretty much have to explain to the drones how to seek them out from memory. ("Uh... look for the blue thing. No, no, the other blue thing.). Oh, let's not forget the fact that Zelenka already had his hands full as it was fixing all the other systems.

    We have the drone in Condemned hitting a cruiser and going for the engines.
    With John directing it. John =/= Zelenka.

    Above all, it would prove extremely useful in the case you'd have only a few missiles left.
    That's what the mental interface is for.

    Face it, you're just as nerdy as us, if not more considering the attention, obstination and amount of time you were spending on threads a few months ago.
    I'm not the one insisting that the Ori beams couldn't possible harm something that withstood an acretion disc when it's already been established that they can do exactly that, now am I?

    I'm also not the one insisting that the standard Ori beam is weaker in yeild than a single hive blast based on the effects of the Ori beam hitting a mountain in atmosphere, while ignoring the effects of the hive blasts hitting the shield in "siege" and the ground in "Sateda"
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 22nd, 2006 at 04:12 PM.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    whatever is underneath the rock is irrelevent as it still took several hits to pierce the rock in the first place, the device underneath still withstood several hits and it wasn't designed to withstand direct attack...
    How do you know?

    we know the armor varies in thickness and we don't know where the room was anyway...
    Near the hull.

    he's another picture showing wraith armor it's clearly very thick...
    How thick is "very thick"?

    firstly the deadalus isn't 1/1000th of it's size and secondly it's irrelevent...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hive_scale.jpg

    If the Daedalus is less than 1/10th the length, less than 1/10th the width, and less than 1/10th the depth, then how much smaller is it altogether?

    despite what you say shrod we've never seen this happen in stargate and the fact that we've seen many different sizes of wraith bolts is proof enough of varying firepower...
    Or it could be proof of the effects of gravity on a non-solid bolt coposed of energy and matter, where the front portion is accelerated faster than the back portion. It could also just be proof of a standard motion blur.

    It's funny how these bolts are supposed to be vastly more powerful than the typical blast, yet the Daedalus manages to take a good handful of them at 20% shields, and manage to fly through an acretion disc to boot. (And remember, the closer it gets to the acretion disc, the more that the blasts would interfere with the shields.). It's also amazing how the people on board dont seem to shake much more than they usually do.

    or maybe they hit the same weak stop? your argue is ridiculas even you must see it, like i said if the weak spots are so comon we'd see explosions from rail guns hitting them...
    First off, most of the time, we see the engagements on the Daedalus end, so it's a moot point. Secondly, the railgun fire is a lot narrower. It would be like looking for something in a dark room armed with a laser pointer. Sure, it's powerful, the problem is that it's not efficient. Thirdly, Caldwell wouldn't be constantly ordering that they use their railguns if they were completely incapable of penetrating the armor altogether?

    we've never seen the same sized bolt hit both a hive and the deadalus
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...allies507.html

    The Daedalus and the Hive ship were both hit by the same sized bolts in the same frame. The difference is that it causes a relatively large explosion on the hive ship, and a barely visible one on the Daedalus.

    the amram impact in no mans land caused a secondary explosion after it hit the hyperdrive...
    And hive bolts couldn't do the same thing as they seem to be doing in the above photo because...?

    It's amazing how the Wraith didn't think to protect that system a little better, considering how important and violatile it was.

    when the Z.P.M is that low on power anything you do drains years off the shield life, the Z.P.M in siege was pretty full
    Evidence?

    he would be saying they have external weaknesses if the whole ship was just as weak use your head...
    There's a difference between being weak, and having a weakness.

    Zombies in general are weak. If I shoot one in the stomach, chances are that it'll pass right through.

    If I shoot one in the head, it's a weakness. Because not only will it pass right through, but it'll also disable them.

    The Wraith won on sheer numbers. No matter how many you shoot down, more will show up. It would be like firing a machine gun into a beehive the size of a room, and expecting that to shut the hive ship down. It won't, not because the beehive is too strong, but becuase it's incredibly redundant.

    there's so much wrong with that. Firstly if rail guns could simply pass through hive ships the ships would be beaten very quickly seeing as a single lucky hit could destroy them
    Again, like being in a dark room with a laser pointer. Yes, maybe I'll get lucky and find what I'm looking for in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it.

    basically you've seen sateda and despite the huge amounts of evidence showing much higher yields
    Oh? Could you please cite where we've actually seen much higher yeilds, as opposed to inferring it based on nebulous feats of "Well, they once managed to damage X, which likely requires multi-gt yeilds"? For instance:

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

    I don't know, looks pretty consistent with the fireballs we saw in Sateda to me.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Again, why with energy weapons, are we using gt for a non explosive, afaik and iirc energy weapons are based in watts, kilowats, gigawats...terawats..pecawatts?

    edit, and I certainally wasn't saying that the main cannon on the ori ship was weaker then a single wraith blast. but that the ori cannon wasn't enough to take a hive ship in a single shot like a Ha'tak, and the combined firepower of the entire ship, should been enough to handle a Ori ship.

  5. #85
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Fine, then cite me on examples where they give the exact yeilds of their on board tacticals, and I'll concede that your number isn't arbitrary.
    Nuke exploding over Atlantis. Low megaton range considering the fireball size. At least, largely over several hundreds of kilotons.
    Gigaton missiles used against capships in season 1/2. The human would not revert to weaker missiles as the anti-capship ordinance for the assault & defense fleet, especially after years of fighting against the Goa'uld and realizing how powerful their shields are (based on Enemies, high megatons or low gigatons per second, for the very low end figures, if not multiple hundreds or thousands of gigatons, depending on the shiel model supported). It would be utter stupidity to stick with AMRAM level sort of ordinance.
    The nuke fireball - in space - in No Man's Land, already +2 km wide in a fraction of a second. Yet no structural damage seen once the hiveship is brought back to Atlantis.
    Want to continue, or you're still going to deny all these elements, supporting high yields ordinance fired by the 304s, in favor of some rubbish logic to keep going on with how AMRAM missiles that are all what's necessary to shoot down wraith ships?
    {Snip}

    Yes, with absolutely nothing of substance to back any of your observations or calculations up, other than your arbitrary say so.
    Plain. Wrong. It's pretty much straight forward, and until you can prove that there were significant clouds just above ground zero, I'm afraid all you're doing is flailing your arms in wide open fields. {Snip}
    So what's that translucent white spot at the place getting hit if it's not a cloud?
    And how do you determine it's translucent exactly? Oh, just because white hot fireballs would turn to greyish pale as they cool down on the nightside of a planet?

    Wow, it's amazing how the atmosphere didn't heat up that much while bombarding Atlantis in the Siege then, huh? Where were the massive fireballs then? Oh, I know!

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...iege3x642.html

    Each one of those splotches is apparently in the multi-GT range.
    {snip} Last time I adressed the nature of those bolts, I actually stipulated that they were specific shield draining bolts, sucking petatons of energy per second. Those same bolts were mostly absorbed by the shield, and were actually draining the ZPM. But you'd first need to admit that before going any further.
    So it's quite irrelevant to the rest of the more DET based weaponry.

    Plus your whole Sateda argument is just absurd. If you claim that those explosions are the maximum yields we could expect from Wraith weapons, then there's just no chance they could actually produce enough light to be diffused through clouds, and then seen from space across several kilometers.

    No, but we know that SGC expected them to be enough. And yes, they did have Wraith specs on file. e.g., they knew that the Ancient satellite powered by a single naq generator would've been enough to take out all three hive ships, if not for a bad circuit. SGA then sent the specs they had to SGA. So, as of the Siege, 6 GT level space mines is considered to be a sufficient main line of defense against Wraith hive ships.
    {Snip} What was the last burst of information they sent back to the SGC before Siege Part II? Let me tell you: Letters from Pegasus. Incidentally, the very first time they ever saw hiveships and cruisers. So what did they know about Wraith hiveships at that moment, and how much experience did they have in terms of open warfare against Wraith capital ships? Absolute none. Zip. Zero. Nadda. Rien.
    So whatever they estimated would be enough, or sounded big for any human used to deal with, at best, megaton level nukes on Earth, was just a pure guess. Just like they estimated their strategy would work and would see the Wraith run straight into the mines. Which proved to be a total failure.
    Last time the SGC expected a given yield to be enough after one out-of-universe season against an all new enemy, we saw them fire one digit low gigaton nukes against shields that would have easily withstood that amount of energy anyway (without even counting that much less than only half of the energy of the nuke would have actually had an impact on the goa'uld shields).
    Thank you for playing.

    No, but it would be protected in it's important systems. For instance, woould you expect it's fuel tank to be protected? Dang right I would.
    Are its catterpillars protected? Nope. The analogy is more than good, considering that those are part of the tank's drives, just like the sublight and FTL drives are to a hiveships, and both of them are exposed to the open space. And this actually applies to all ships in Stargate.

    Then it's impossible to gauge, so you might as well stop trying to calculate an exact feat for something you don't actually undestand. See MW's comments on how the writers think of these things.
    Writers' intentions have nothing to do with that.
    And it's not impossible to gauge. Just very hard considering our respectives abilities.

    Yes, and the same shield that the Ori were able to take down to 50% in one hit, at a time when they were intentionally leaving behind survivors to tell the tale.
    Yes, with the same weapons that featured so poorly against a pile of solidified dust. You keep denying the fact that the Ori weapons have quite nothing to do with DET, but are shield piercing weapons.
    Please watch Camelot or whatever else episode where Ha'taks blow up. Do we see blinding super nuclear explosions, fueled by all the material and gases ignited by the so called energy of an ori beam, when those goa'uld capships explode? No, not really. There are big explosions, but they're nowhere what you'd get with beams supposedly carrying enough energy to overwhelm shields on the sheer act of direct energy transfer and over saturation.
    Nevermind if your assertion is that those beams mainly work on pure energy transfer concerns.
    They do not. It can't be simpler.

    A 304 that was down to 20% shields before getting hit by multiple hive blasts, only to get in even closer to the black hole.
    Simple. Very tough shields baby. What's so hard to understand?

    BTW, if it went down to 20% just by being in the presence of a black hole, then wouldn't the effects of that same black hole become exponentially greater the closer the Daedalus got to it according to the inverse square law? e.g., 5% at half the distances, 2.2% at 1/3 the distance, etc.? Obviously, you apparently don't need much to survive the acretion disc.
    Sure. I mean, it's only an accretion disc of a damn black hole.
    The only logical and most simple explanation, for someone who actually cares to provide an explanation that ties all elements with a sense of consistency, is that even 0.001% of their shields is damn enormous and well enough to support a dive into a black hole's accretion disc.
    Oh but sure, it then means that Wraith weapons are actually quite powerful.
    {Snip}

    Again, see MW's point on this matter.
    {Snip}

    Here's the model for addressing a false analogy. If you think my analogy is deeply flawed, then you will have no problems following the guidelines for proof: http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm
    You'll rather prove that your analogy is actually right.

    With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

    Giant fireballs indeed.
    Completely irrelevant indeed. We're talking about the lantean satellite.{snip}, dodge questions by refering to completely unrelated element instead of directly adressing what's at hand.
    {snip}

    Depends. Is all that enery being concentrated on a single spot, and released in a single moment in time? Or is it being spread out to prevent the creation of a shockwave?
    What are you talking about? It's very simple. For the nth time, you claim that a multi kiloton beam is all that's needed to vaporize wraith capital ship armor.
    I ask you were that wonderful energy is supposed to be when that same beam actually ignites the atmosphere and the likely more fragile materials inside the ships, when the explosions are all but puny in fact.
    {snip}

    What happened when the Ethon Satellite hit the Prometheus? Were their massive nuclear explosions then?
    Irrelevant.

    They were waking up as John was leaving the room. How long does it take someone to run 11 km through completely familiar terrain from there?
    You understand that 11 km is the ship's lenght, right?
    Now, tell me why you keep asking how and why John is going to run from prow to stern, because sincerely, you're just making stuff up.

    And if he had more drones to use against the Ha'tak, he would've used those too.

    CARTER: Keep firing, sir.
    O’NEILL: Nothing’s happening.
    Thanks for proving my point, and so much for his apparent knowledge. He didn't even think that those two drones would be infinitely enough to blow the crap out of that Ha'tak.
    Talk about luck.

    Really? So you had a stopwatch and timed him, did you?
    Please. Are you going to tell me that McKay has been sitting in that room, with very limited air available, within at best a day, say hours considering the time that passed at the surface, is equalling the time the terran expedition actually owned the Orion?
    {Snip}

    Yes, because going straight up against the force of gravity, which they're pretty much forced to do as part of their automatic firing procedure in order to leave the room in the first place, is really the the same thing as programming it in to seek out specific systems when you don't even have the blueprints at hand, and pretty much have to explain to the drones how to seek them out from memory. ("Uh... look for the blue thing. No, no, the other blue thing.). Oh, let's not forget the fact that Zelenka already had his hands full as it was fixing all the other systems.
    It simply shows that both systems can be easily programmed to go for specific targets. McKay had to actually make the drone go up at a specific location. He had to plot a course.
    Now, Zelenka and co, with all the knowledge on hiveships, etc. and all the time they had to configure and rearm the weapons, couldn't even have the many drones shoot down a whole hiveship in just one swipe, which proves my point.

  6. #86
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    With John directing it. John =/= Zelenka.
    How can you claim that Zelenka didn't control the weapons via the console, since he was exactly doing that?

    That's what the mental interface is for.
    Please adress Rising's case.

    I'm not the one insisting that the Ori beams couldn't possible harm something that withstood an acretion disc when it's already been established that they can do exactly that, now am I?
    You keep failing because you still work on the principle that all reactions and based on DET. Once you start thinking about low DET shield penetrating weapons (exotic stuff uh-ho), all mysteries magically get solved.

    Sure, it actually requires enlarging your tight vision. {Snip}

    I'm also not the one insisting that the standard Ori beam is weaker in yeild than a single hive blast based on the effects of the Ori beam hitting a mountain in atmosphere, while ignoring the effects of the hive blasts hitting the shield in "siege" and the ground in "Sateda"
    Yes, we know that you're not the one insisting on this. Simply because you don't pay attention.

  7. #87
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Here's an interesting bit from that video Mr. Oragahn posted.

    The Captain of the Odyssey complains that the black hole is placing tremendous strain on the sublight engines of his 304. These same type of engines were capable of pushing the ship to extremely high frac C velocities just a few episodes later when Daedalus tried to catch up to that ancient ship.

    Some pretty hefty gravity in play here it would seem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82
    You realize that the show is rarely in real time to begin with, right?
    No actually. I've got an awesome idea though, how 'bout you prove this sequence switched from fast forward to slow-mo.

    In order for those bolts to have hit right behind that jumper they way they did, as it was moving away, they either had to have come from something much closer, like the commander's dart, or they had to have been homing and fired before the outcome of the fight, or the jumpers course, was even determined.

    First, where in the world is this new 11 km figure coming from? Second, you're assuming that it was midday and that the sun was directly overhead, despite the fact that Ronan had been fighting for a considerable period of time, and it would have taken SGA a good while to find him.
    If you want the 11km hiveship hanging completely silent and with no noticible disturbance, visual or comment from the characters you prove it was there. The episode certainly doesn't make it obvious enough for me to take on the burden to prove that it was not.

    Don't have to. All I have to show is that the wraith weaponry creates light. Which it does. That light can then be absorbed the same way that lightning is. Do you think the atmospheric particle really cares whether a photon of light comes from a thunderstorm or a hive weapon?
    You also have to show that it creates clouds the size of some small US states in a few minutes without causing the requisite surface damage to actually throw up that mush debris.

    And you'll need enough light to shine through those clouds from beneath not, light them up inside the way lightning does. You can probably do it by claiming that Wraith weapons are incapable of penetrating clouds so I guess that's pretty much what I should expect to hear next right.

    That's not circular by any definition, since we know how strong the C4 is, and we know how much damage it managed to do to the ship. Both facts of which can be independently verified without having to rely on the other.
    We can also say that it's taken nukes, blackholes and shots from other hiveships, all of which exceed the power of a handful of c4. A sensible person faced with something like this would try to explain all of them in context together. You on the other hand just cling to the C4 and attack every other possible instance that seems higher. You've placed your conclusion first, hence circular reasoning.

    {snip}
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:17 AM.

  8. #88
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Nuke exploding over Atlantis.
    Which you don't know the yeild of to this day.

    Gigaton missiles used against capships in season 1/2.
    Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no.

    The human would not revert to weaker missiles as the anti-capship ordinance
    They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law.

    It's pretty much straight forward, and until you can prove that there were significant clouds just above ground zero,
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

    Sure looks like a cloud to me. What other proof do you need?

    Oh, just because white hot fireballs would turn to greyish pale as they cool down on the nightside of a planet?
    Actually, white hot fireballs would turn red as they cool down. Which they usually are to begin with. Color temperatures and all that.

    actually stipulated that they were specific shield draining bolts, sucking petatons of energy per second.
    Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right.

    If you claim that those explosions are the maximum yields we could expect from Wraith weapons, then there's just no chance they could actually produce enough light to be diffused through clouds, and then seen from space across several kilometers.
    Sure they can. We know from Condemned that cruisers can produce huge amounts of light, despite the fact that they don't have much power to back them up. FYI, we can also see things light highways and dams from space. How much light do you think that those produce?

    Let me tell you: Letters from Pegasus. Incidentally, the very first time they ever saw hiveships and cruisers. So what did they know about Wraith hiveships at that moment, and how much experience did they have in terms of open warfare against Wraith capital ships? Absolute none. Zip. Zero. Nadda. Rien.
    They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC.

    Last time the SGC expected a given yield to be enough after one out-of-universe season against an all new enemy, we saw them fire one digit low gigaton nukes against shields that would have easily withstood that amount of energy anyway
    No, what we saw was that the nuke impacted prior to detonation, because it hit an unexpected barrier. The nuke could have had a yield of infinity, and it still wouldn't have mattered at that point, because it wouldn't have been able to achieve critical mass.

    Are its catterpillars protected?
    They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either.

    Yes, with the same weapons that featured so poorly against a pile of solidified dust.
    Yes, sort of like an elephant gun would still have trouble penetrating through hard ground. What's your point

    The only logical and most simple explanation, for someone who actually cares to provide an explanation that ties all elements with a sense of consistency, is that even 0.001% of their shields is damn enormous and well enough to support a dive into a black hole's accretion disc.
    Which would only make the Ori that much more enormous for taking them down 50% in one shot. The other explaination, as MW points out, is that the writers just didn't think that hard about these matters, and didn't bother to check out the actual number regarding the acretion disc before making sure that the Odyssey could do it.

    You'll rather prove that your analogy is actually right.
    Nukes and dynamite release their energy within a fixed point in time and a fixed point in space, thus creating a shockwave. The Ori beam, Ancient weapon, and flamethrowers do not release their energy within a fixed point in time, or a fixed point in space. Ergo, the two are not comparable. Which part of that do you disagree with?

    Completely irrelevant indeed. We're talking about the lantean satellite.
    So your standards be used to debunk one weapon, but not another?

    What are you talking about? It's very simple. For the nth time, you claim that a multi kiloton beam is all that's needed to vaporize wraith capital ship armor. I ask you were that wonderful energy is supposed to be when that same beam actually ignites the atmosphere and the likely more fragile materials inside the ships, when the explosions are all but puny in fact.
    The fragile stuff would heat up, but at a much slower rate. Since it's a slower rate, there is no shockwave. A microwave does this all the time (heating up some types of matter, but not others). Does a microwave rely on exotic principles as well?

    You understand that 11 km is the ship's lenght, right?
    You do realize that John planted C4 along the length, right?

    Please. Are you going to tell me that McKay has been sitting in that room, with very limited air available, within at best a day, say hours considering the time that passed at the surface, is equalling the time the terran expedition actually owned the Orion?
    Please, do. Amuse me.
    At the top of Allies, McKay (Not Zelenka) is in charge of overseeing the Orion. At that point, the ship is incapable of even releasing it's drones, much less programming them. Zelenka's work is on the ground floor. Afterwards, the Wraith/SGA alliance takes top priority over work on the Orion, and McKay (who was in charge of the project) gets kidnapped. After which point, Zelenka (who wasn't in charge) now has to get the ship ready.

    LORNE: Zelenka says she’ll fly, sir, but – as of right now – that’s about all she can do.
    CALDWELL: You’ll have thirteen hours en route to get your weapons and shields online, but we need to leave right now to make this window. Are you go or no go?


    As for Tower, let's see. John gives Otho the gene therapy after McKay goes underground. Prior to McKay hacking the drone, Otho declares himself the new Lord Protector. In the episode, John specifically tells him that the therapy works on only half the population, and it's unlikely that Otho would risk revealing his hand until after he was sure that, yes, the gene therapy work. The gene therapy itself takes 4 hours to work, so, which means that McKay was there at least that long.

    How can you claim that Zelenka didn't control the weapons via the console, since he was exactly doing that?
    Not the same way John was. It's like comparing John sitting at the chair to the fact that Zelenka can hack into it. Which brings up another point: If the drones were that easy to hack into beyond normal operations (e.g., fly straight up and lead the premises), then why would they need a gene therapy at all?

    ZELENKA: I’ve already been given the gene weeks ago – it didn’t take.
    Last edited by Schrodinger82; October 22nd, 2006 at 10:58 PM.

  9. #89
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    The Captain of the Odyssey complains that the black hole is placing tremendous strain on the sublight engines of his 304. These same type of engines were capable of pushing the ship to extremely high frac C velocities just a few episodes later when Daedalus tried to catch up to that ancient ship.
    And how how well did that go?

    No actually. I've got an awesome idea though, how 'bout you prove this sequence switched from fast forward to slow-mo.
    Way to strawman. This is Stargate Atlantis, not "24."

    If you want the 11km hiveship hanging completely silent and with no noticible disturbance, visual or comment from the characters you prove it was there.
    Well, the fact that Teyla said it was the hive ship that was going to fire on them, for one. Why would she say that, if the hive ship was too far away?

    And you'll need enough light to shine through those clouds from beneath not, light them up inside the way lightning does.
    Again, doesn't have to be cloud. It could be any type of dust/vapor in the atmosphere, including dust/vapor that's close to the surface. That's also why you see the bright flash coming from the Wraith weapon in "condemned," because there's enough dust/vapor in the area to absorb it.

    We can also say that it's taken nukes, blackholes and shots from other hiveships, all of which exceed the power of a handful of c4.
    Nukes are less effective in space, and had an unknown yeild. Blackholes apparently couldn't even stop the Odyssey. Other hiveships is circular.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I think that the Wraith would win. The Ori have alot better technology, but the Wraith have way more numbers. The Ori fight for power, the Wraith fight for food. The Ori would probably start winning for awhile, but the Wraith would have a great come back, like the Wraith Vs the Ancients. The Ancients probably have better technology then the Ori, and they got slaughted by the Wraith, because of numbers, and the fight for the food. Personally, i would go for the Wraith, and i think they would win. The battle would go on for a long time before a winner is ancouned though.

  11. #91
    Chief Master Sergeant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    {snip}
    Anyway, I sort of rewatched Rising 1 and 2... and found something interesting... I don't think Sheppard actually layed down the C4 from inside the ship. Indeed, he gave C4 to the dudes inside the cell, and they blew that up from the inside. However..

    John: Alright teams of two, learn what you can, lay down the defenses as you see fit. I wanna be able to light this place up if we have to...

    later on

    John: "Light it up"

    *Hive Queen throws a hissy fit*
    *John stabs Queen*

    Explosions from outside. Ya know those pictures someone posted before, of the Hive in Rising... it stands to reason that the majority of the C4 was actually placed from the outside. It even looks like the explosions came from the outside. Correct me if I'm wrong... but the events of that episode seem to point to the C4 being placed from the outside. Except for the bit where the two Wraith dudes get blown up... So maybe John put some C4 on the inside, while the rest was on the outside.


    "Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warheads attacked to missiles? Missiles are the bit that moves it... and the warheads are the bit that go KABOOM.

    "They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law."

    Isn't this speculation?

    "Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right."

    Again correct me if I'm wrong, but the dude who said that didn't actually say that they were GT level explosions, that they were perhaps shots designed to drain shields, rather than create big booms.

    I really doubt Wraith weapons can create GT level explosions either way though. Doesn't GT level weapons mean... they could decimate large areas of land? (Sorry I'm sort of newb... since Hiroshima was like 10kt or something... which means GT level would be heaps stronger?) Because then it stands to reason that we would've seen those types of weapon fire reigning down on to Atlantis in Siege 3... It makes more sense since, if Wraith weapons could do that sort of damage, when the Atlantis team were destroying the Human Wraith camp on the planet, they would only have needed to fire 1 or 2 shots to kill everything within an x km radius.. Yeah... correct me if I'm wrong.


    "They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC."

    According to Zelenka, wasn't what they could pull off 7% of the Ancient database? Which means a lot of information to sift through, considering they deployed Deadalus soon after they received the communicae, leaving them not much time to sift through the information they received? Yeah, I'm just speculating. But they DID have all the reports made by the Altantis team, probably a lot easier to go through. But until then, they hadn't REALLY come to experience the true nature of Wraith Hives... except for "Sanctuary"... I think...


    "They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either."

    Hence there are weaknesses? Like the armour over FTL drives on a Wraith Hive aren't millions of times weaker than the rest of the ship...



    Meh, can't be bothered responding to the rest. It's dinner time. Sorry Shrod, I'm not attacking your arguments in particular, it's just that your post was the last one. AAAAAND, I don't know how to use those quote things... (such a newb). I believe on the whole... you tend to make valid points about Wraith weapons not being the multi GT level... and them having weaknesses... but... perhaps you could be a bit more... gracious... about voicing your opinion? Meh.

    Hahahahahaahaha.

    Your argument about Point P moving in such a way that it is always 2 units from the origin is very circular.

    kekekekeke... OOOH dinner time Byeeeeee
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:19 AM.

  12. #92
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Which you don't know the yeild of to this day.
    We do. You keep denying it because it doesn't suit your views.
    I accept your concesion on the other proofs as well.

    Gigaton level warheads, yes. Missiles, no.
    They're quite the same thing. The warheads were small enough to fit on missiles. Those gigaton mines would fit on capital ship missiles. I'm not going to bother to go through the tons of evidence of how naqahdah largely amplifies nuke yields, or on the general ability of naqahdah to enhance explosions hell like.

    They would if they knew that 95% of their missiles were just going to be wasted, and intercepted prior to detonation, that their best shot of getting a nuke through was via transport, that a weak nuke was just as effective for transport as a strong one, and that multiple weaker nukes distribute their energy more efficiently than fewer strong ones do when fired due to the inverse square law.
    First, this does not explain the gigantic explosion.
    Secondly, another logic would also dictate that you'd like your best weapons fired en masse actually, so if one single missile goes through, it will deal serious damage.
    There's no point in cutting the total destruction capacity of your ship if in the end, on the few missiles that will pass through, their summed yield will be low. It makes no sense. The most sensical tactic is to fire as many powerful missiles as you can.
    One goes through, then you're getting assured of dealing a sufficient level of damage. Plenty go through, and it's icing on the cake.

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

    Sure looks like a cloud to me. What other proof do you need?
    I'm afraid you'll have to host the picture on a personnal webalbum, because the caps site is down atm.

    Actually, white hot fireballs would turn red as they cool down. Which they usually are to begin with. Color temperatures and all that.
    And they'd turn grey after that. Plus an explosion will have little time to turn to a significant "level of red" if it's continuously pumped with energy.

    Shield draining bolts that now create GT level explosions when they hit the surface? Right.
    ... you are just not paying attention at all.

    1. Sure they can.
    2. We know from Condemned that cruisers can produce huge amounts of light,
    3. despite the fact that they don't have much power to back them up.
    4. FYI, we can also see things light highways and dams from space.
    5. How much light do you think that those produce?
    1. No, they clearly can't. Just looking at the episode in question will finely prove it. We're talking about important levels of light that first need to reach the clouds in sufficient quantities, then remain powerful enough to still be excessively bright once diffused through the cloud layers. You got everything wrong there.
    2. You made that up.
    3. That must be one of the most absurd and desperate claims you have made. What's your evidence that cruiers do not have that much power to back them up? Let me remind you that they're (more or less) Daedalus sized spaceships able to leave the gravity well of a planet, push their heavy mass through space, jump into hyperspace, etc. You're just working from assumptions and taking them as fact. It's no wonder that you get things wrong later on.
    4. Through clouds? Prove it.
    The light produced by the explosions in Sateda or in Siege part 3 is not going to pass through any cloud layer to boot.
    5. You tell me.

    They had what they could pull off the database, which they then sent to SGC.
    And obviously, even with that databse, they knew near to jack until Allies and the queen forwarding blueprints.
    You're assuming the lantean database had an extensive documentation on Wraith ships. Prove it. Allies strongly implies they did not.
    You're stuck with a necessity to prove something that you won't be able to, and with an episode that largely tells you that you're wrong.
    Tip of the day: concede the point.

    No, what we saw was that the nuke impacted prior to detonation, because it hit an unexpected barrier. The nuke could have had a yield of infinity, and it still wouldn't have mattered at that point, because it wouldn't have been able to achieve critical mass.
    You don't get my point. Even if the nuke had exploded one centimeter away from the shield, it would have not been enough to knock it down.

    They're made of durable materials, yes. Maybe not as durable as the tank itself, but also not millions of times weaker either.
    Durable materials that can be destroyed by missiles, grenades or mines.
    My point stands.

    Yes, sort of like an elephant gun would still have trouble penetrating through hard ground. What's your point
    Unless you have a very short term memory, my point was clearly written and detailed in the very post you quoted.

    Which would only make the Ori that much more enormous for taking them down 50% in one shot. The other explaination, as MW points out, is that the writers just didn't think that hard about these matters, and didn't bother to check out the actual number regarding the acretion disc before making sure that the Odyssey could do it.
    Thank you, I think we perfectly know this. Nevermind, we're here to try to make all that stuff fit together. You, obviously, have not such a respectful goal.
    By the way, a fictional universe needs a strong level of coherence, for credibility purposes for example.

    Nukes and dynamite release their energy within a fixed point in time and a fixed point in space, thus creating a shockwave. The Ori beam, Ancient weapon, and flamethrowers do not release their energy within a fixed point in time, or a fixed point in space. Ergo, the two are not comparable. Which part of that do you disagree with?
    It took around less than two seconds to release several kilotons of energy and entirely impale the hiveship. According to your model, all that was done via DET. So let's see. 20 KT for three hiveships. +6.6 KT per ship.
    That's a damn good wattage, 3.3 KT/s. Where did the energy go when it hit the more fragile inner structures and ignited materials within the ship's atmosphere? Where are the kiloton worth fireballs?
    Oops, it's not there.
    How long are you going to babble before you finely understand this?

    So your standards be used to debunk one weapon, but not another?
    Again, it's completely irrelevant to the Lantean weapon.

    Wait, while we're at it, and as you really want me to discuss the Rand satellite, let's see what you have to say on that.
    The Prometheus was protected by shields that could easily withstand several megatons of energy, at a time it benefited from asgard shields (even if the momentum of the attacks would still rock the ship and damage it by sheer concussion).
    The ori-rand beam did went through that shield. Yet, the explosions were puny, and in the end, the Prometheus was destroyed by a chain reaction.
    The ori beams seem to operate on that same system. They can pierce shields, but they're not even up to multikiloton energy levels.

    You do realize that John planted C4 along the length, right?
    Prove that C4 was planet both near the prow and near the stern.

    At the top of Allies, McKay (Not Zelenka) is in charge of overseeing the Orion. At that point, the ship is incapable of even releasing it's drones, much less programming them.
    Which would just suggest that the drones did most of the targetting on their own then. (Point A)

    See Rising, which you constantly dodge.

    Zelenka's work is on the ground floor. Afterwards, the Wraith/SGA alliance takes top priority over work on the Orion, and McKay (who was in charge of the project) gets kidnapped. After which point, Zelenka (who wasn't in charge) now has to get the ship ready.

    LORNE: Zelenka says she’ll fly, sir, but – as of right now – that’s about all she can do.
    CALDWELL: You’ll have thirteen hours en route to get your weapons and shields online, but we need to leave right now to make this window. Are you go or no go?


    As for Tower, let's see. John gives Otho the gene therapy after McKay goes underground. Prior to McKay hacking the drone, Otho declares himself the new Lord Protector. In the episode, John specifically tells him that the therapy works on only half the population, and it's unlikely that Otho would risk revealing his hand until after he was sure that, yes, the gene therapy work. The gene therapy itself takes 4 hours to work, so, which means that McKay was there at least that long.
    In which episode are we told that it takes four hours to work? Not trying to dispute this element, just wanting to know where it was revealed.
    As for the time comparison, I concede that Zelenka just had put weapons back online in a hurry. But in fact, it turns out that this actually helps my point.
    See point A.

  13. #93
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zepro View Post
    Explosions from outside. Ya know those pictures someone posted before, of the Hive in Rising... it stands to reason that the majority of the C4 was actually placed from the outside. It even looks like the explosions came from the outside.
    The only issue there is, how in the world do your guys scale a hive ship from the outside? Other than that, I agree, it would make sense.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't warheads attacked to missiles?
    They're sseparate components that are treated differently by non-proliferation treaties. The warhead is the epxlosive yeild, but the missile is the delivery mechanism that makes its tactical capabilities possible. "Metal Gear Solid," for instance, is a game where the United Sttes tries to get around the "no more nuclear missiles" treaty by firing them from railgun tubes. Current debates on foreign WMD programs often center around, "yeah, well even if they have X, they don't have the missiles to fire it with."

    Hence, SGA would have a strong incentive to keep the strong weapons non-tactical with current oversight.

    Isn't this speculation?
    Nope. We have similar multiple warhead delivery systems that rely on weaker missiles because, among other reasons, they're more tactical and deliver their energy more efficiently than commiting the same resources to fewer, bigger nukes.

    Again correct me if I'm wrong, but the dude who said that didn't actually say that they were GT level explosions, that they were perhaps shots designed to drain shields, rather than create big booms.
    Except for the part where he keeps bringing up Misbegotten.

    I really doubt Wraith weapons can create GT level explosions either way though. Doesn't GT level weapons mean... they could decimate large areas of land? (Sorry I'm sort of newb... since Hiroshima was like 10kt or something... which means GT level would be heaps stronger?)
    Basically, yes. Even a small KT weapon would be enough to devestate an entire city. There's nothing "weak" about it.

    Because then it stands to reason that we would've seen those types of weapon fire reigning down on to Atlantis in Siege 3... It makes more sense since, if Wraith weapons could do that sort of damage, when the Atlantis team were destroying the Human Wraith camp on the planet, they would only have needed to fire 1 or 2 shots to kill everything within an x km radius.. Yeah... correct me if I'm wrong.
    The problem is that they reigned down hundreds of shots, and were only to kill everything in a 3 km radius. Even then, they were unsure. That uncertainty doesn't make sense at the nuke level.

    According to Zelenka, wasn't what they could pull off 7% of the Ancient database?
    Sure, but Wraith ship specs would likely be at the top of the list.

    Hence there are weaknesses?
    The issue is the idea that they are literally BILLIONS of times weaker than the rest of the ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    They're quite the same thing.
    Try telling the UN that.

    First, this does not explain the gigantic explosion.
    Nukes in space release all their energy as radiation, which would likely mean a disproptionately large amount of light.

    Secondly, another logic would also dictate that you'd like your best weapons fired en masse actually, so if one single missile goes through, it will deal serious damage.
    Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.

    1. No, they clearly can't. Just looking at the episode in question will finely prove it. We're talking about important levels of light that first need to reach the clouds in sufficient quantities, then remain powerful enough to still be excessively bright once diffused through the cloud layers. You got everything wrong there.
    Dude, we can see plane contrails from orbit, which aren't that thick to begin with, only absorb stray light coming from the sun. It doesn't apparently take much.

    2. You made that up.
    When Stargatescaps goes back up, you can see the screenshots for yourself. When the Wraith bolt hit, the entire scene is flooded with a bight flash.

    3. That must be one of the most absurd and desperate claims you have made. What's your evidence that cruiers do not have that much power to back them up?
    The fact that the exact same bolt mentioned above didn't manage to even knock SGA off their feet, despite landing a few feet away?

    4. Through clouds? Prove it.


    Way to go a complete 180. Apparently now Wraith blasts are visbble only if there aren't any clouds.

    And obviously, even with that databse, they knew near to jack until Allies and the queen forwarding blueprints.
    About the designs, yes. Not about the amount of raw firepower necessary to harm one. As evidence from the fact that McKay knew that the satellite would be enough to destroy all three.

    You don't get my point. Even if the nuke had exploded one centimeter away from the shield,
    Which it didn't.

    Durable materials that can be destroyed by missiles, grenades or mines.
    My point stands.
    Oh, so you're admitting that a wraith ship can be destroyed by the above then?

    By the way, a fictional universe needs a strong level of coherence, for credibility purposes for example.
    If you don't like it, then stop watching. The whole premise of theshow is that you can walk through the event horizon of a wormhole and still be fine.

    It took around less than two seconds to release several kilotons of energy and entirely impale the hiveship.
    Which is forever compared to the precision timing of a nuke in order to reach critical mass. Heck, that's more time than it takes for a massive star to go supernova.

    They can pierce shields, but they're not even up to multikiloton energy levels.
    Maybe because you don't need them to be.

    See Rising, which you constantly dodge.
    You mean the episode where John uses the neural interface? And the episode where they revealed this:

    O'NEILL: Oh. Don't you have a dozen or so people already who can use the ancient technology?

    WEIR: Yeah. With concentration and training they could make it work, but John Sheppard, he does it naturally.


    You're comparing the the most gifted known human at Ancient technology with someone who doesn't have the gene at all.

    In which episode are we told that it takes four hours to work?
    At least four hours.

    WEIR: So we give everyone the gene therapy.
    McKAY: No – it’s not gonna do it.
    ZELENKA: I’ve already been given the gene weeks ago – it didn’t take.
    McKAY: I know. I’m already on it.
    ZELENKA: The gene therapy is only effective in forty-eight percent of recipients.
    FORD (to Beckett): If I was given the gene shot right now, how long would it take to kick in?
    BECKETT: A minimum of four hours.


    Hot Zone.

  14. #94
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Hiroshima was 22 kilotons.

    I don't think any bolts from almost any of the weapons are gonna create anywhere NEAR a gigaton level explosion. I would like to point out for the third time, the energy weapons being used by the wraith ori goauld.. ect ect, are not releasing GIGATONS of energy, but maybe.. GIGAWATTS! >.<

  15. #95
    Captain Exiled Master's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    The s would win in space, but the would win in ground engagements. And if a managed to grab a , the lifesucker will kick some serious @$$.
    Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering-Yoda
    The more bizzare a thing, the less mysterious it proves to be-Sherlock Holmes
    I reject your reality and substitute my own-Adam Savage
    A person is smart. People are stupid, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it-Agent Kay
    That is the exploration that awaits you�not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence-Q
    Church: I learned a very valuable lesson in my travels, Tucker. No matter how bad things might seem...
    Caboose: They could be worse?
    Church: Nope, no matter how bad they seem, they can't be any better, and they can't be any worse, because that's the way things f***ing are, and you better get used to it Nancy. Quit-yer-b****ing.

    If you smoke, you choke. If you choke, you're dead. 'Nuff said.

  16. #96
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Try telling the UN that.
    In that case of warheads fired at enemy ships, they're turned into missiles for necessary reasons. Oh, ok, they're on the tip of the rocket. Happy?

    Nukes in space release all their energy as radiation, which would likely mean a disproptionately large amount of light.
    The light suspiciously turn into a luminous 2 km wide cloud. Your explanation?

    Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.
    1. Prove that they're stuck with that.
    2. The number is not a reference to the power of the nuke but a reference to time.

    Dude, we can see plane contrails from orbit, which aren't that thick to begin with, only absorb stray light coming from the sun. It doesn't apparently take much.
    Ah, because now a greyish contrail due to a mix between the gas' own colour and the luminosity of the sun = bright flash.
    Beyond simple constitution problems, you literally overlook the simple element of largely different magnitudes.

    When Stargatescaps goes back up, you can see the screenshots for yourself. When the Wraith bolt hit, the entire scene is flooded with a bight flash.
    If it hits near the camera, it's normal. It does not mean it will be enough to literally appear as a state sized white flash through a dense cloud layer seen from orbit though. Hence your "huge amounts of light" is completely made up.

    The fact that the exact same bolt mentioned above didn't manage to even knock SGA off their feet, despite landing a few feet away?
    Dialed down. I gave you evidence that the cruisers have systems that would require huge amounts of energy. What's hard to understand?


    Way to go a complete 180. Apparently now Wraith blasts are visbble only if there aren't any clouds.
    No, I'm just insiting that you prove your assertion, or retract.
    {snip}

    1. About the designs, yes.
    2. Not about the amount of raw firepower necessary to harm one.
    3. As evidence from the fact that McKay knew that the satellite would be enough to destroy all three.
    1. Not only.
    2. Prove it.
    3a. Evidence that it would be achieved through pure raw power? - don't bother, I have proved it's not.
    3b. Evidence that McKay obtained this information outside of the satellite's computers?

    Which it didn't.
    Which is completely irrelevant, if you could pay attention.
    So I see that's all you have to say. Nice concession, again.
    I have demonstrated that the SGC made an estimation of what would be necessary to take down two goa'uld ships, and their previsions fell short on two points.
    First, they didn't predict the existence of shields. Secondly, had the nukes exploded near the shields, their yields would have not been enough to knock them down.

    And now, you want to believe that the SGC exactly knew what to do against an enemy they had very little information about, even less about their capital ships?
    Makes no sense.

    Oh, so you're admitting that a wraith ship can be destroyed by the above then?
    No. I was talking about the tank.

    {snip}

    Which is forever compared to the precision timing of a nuke in order to reach critical mass. Heck, that's more time than it takes for a massive star to go supernova.
    Duh. You can't {Snip} understand something as simple as releasing several kilotons of energy within one second should have produced extremely large, white and blinding fireballs.
    {snip}.

    Maybe because you don't need them to be.
    Yes, because they can pierce shields according to exotic mechanisms.
    Again, please read {Snip}

    There's an ori beam that can't even level a mountain in one blow, and yet which manages to completely rape a Ha'tak's shield that can withstand low gigatons of energy per second.

    There's a problem. Solution: the ori beam is an exotic mechanism that can pierce shields without relying on energy overwhelming.

    You mean the episode where John uses the neural interface? And the episode where they revealed this:

    O'NEILL: Oh. Don't you have a dozen or so people already who can use the ancient technology?

    WEIR: Yeah. With concentration and training they could make it work, but John Sheppard, he does it naturally.


    You're comparing the the most gifted known human at Ancient technology with someone who doesn't have the gene at all.
    Wow. It's like only two posts since I reference the incident, and you've already forgotten/dismissed it. {snip}
    I was talking about Beckett's crazy drone that went for John's helicopter on its own. {snip}

  17. #97
    Staff Sergeant VolrathEvincar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I don't know about in the Milky Way, but if it was the Pegasus Galaxy vs. the Ori Galaxy, then you have to hand it over to the Ori. I mean, sure the Wraith would have numbers, but damn son, those halo ships are beyond anything that we have ever seen man. I mean, the Dedolace at least destroyed a couple of hive ships. The Odyssey and the Russian one didn't even make a dent in those halo ships. And as far as ground forces go, the Ori have the priors! Which could kick the Wraith's ass!
    Jack (Addressing Teal'c): You're so.....shallow!
    Daniel: Oh please, Teal'c is like one of the deepest people I know, I mean, he's so deep! Come on, tell them how deep you are. You'll be lucky if you understand this.
    Teal'c: My depth is immaterial to this converstation.
    Daniel: OH! You see!?
    Jack: No more beer for you.

    Bring back SG-1 on SciFi, or the terrorists win.
    http://mmofallout.files.wordpress.co...08/banner1.jpg

  18. #98
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    How do you know?
    it was never intended to be a weapon, thereofore it's logical to assume seeing as the ancients had no known enemies that it wasn't heavily armored


    Near the hull.
    well, duh i meant on the ship as there are places which appear to be less armored or even unarmored...

    How thick is "very thick"?
    the picture speaks for itself it's at least a couple of dozen feet thick...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hive_scale.jpg

    If the Daedalus is less than 1/10th the length, less than 1/10th the width, and less than 1/10th the depth, then how much smaller is it altogether?
    i don't know the exact size of either but i doubt you could fit a thousands deadalus's in a hive ship...

    Or it could be proof of the effects of gravity on a non-solid bolt coposed of energy and matter, where the front portion is accelerated faster than the back portion. It could also just be proof of a standard motion blur

    It's funny how these bolts are supposed to be vastly more powerful than the typical blast, yet the Daedalus manages to take a good handful of them at 20% shields, and manage to fly through an acretion disc to boot. (And remember, the closer it gets to the acretion disc, the more that the blasts would interfere with the shields.). It's also amazing how the people on board dont seem to shake much more than they usually do.
    so motion made the blast appear 1000 times larger ok why didn't the hive or the deadalus have motion blur after accelerating around the black hole?

    and most bolts fired by the wraith appear that shape so it's not down to the black hole...

    so whats the typical blasts? certainly not the ones in Sateda seeing as most blasts we see are far larger. The deadalus was hit about 7-10 times and it's shields were failing and the fact that it can still fly through an acceleration disk shows how powerful wraith weapons are to drain asgard shields.

    flying into the black hole interfered with wraith systems so they'd were highly inaccurate and once flying through the acceleration disk aiming would be impossible...

    First off, most of the time, we see the engagements on the Daedalus end, so it's a moot point. Secondly, the railgun fire is a lot narrower. It would be like looking for something in a dark room armed with a laser pointer. Sure, it's powerful, the problem is that it's not efficient. Thirdly, Caldwell wouldn't be constantly ordering that they use their railguns if they were completely incapable of penetrating the armor altogether?
    they empty thousands of rounds into the hive ships so if they were able to pierce the armor they should be hitting dozens of these weak spots you keep talking about...you can't have it both ways either rail guns can't pierce the wraith armor or the wraith have very few of these weakness i'd opt for both of them...

    Circular Reasoning caldwell fires the rail guns so therefore they must be effective. I'd say they are effective if you hit them in the few weak spots...

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...allies507.html

    The Daedalus and the Hive ship were both hit by the same sized bolts in the same frame. The difference is that it causes a relatively large explosion on the hive ship, and a barely visible one on the Daedalus.
    i was talking about direct hits to the hull, and explosions don't happen when energy blasts hit shields, hitting solid matter and hitting a shields are completly different...moot point

    And hive bolts couldn't do the same thing as they seem to be doing in the above photo because...?
    ...because armor doesn't explode, michael even said,

    "targeting the ventral hyperdrive reactor would be most effective," so he blew up a reactor. Your not going to start saying that hives are made of explosive materials again are you

    so basically what your saying is that the dozens of huge explosions are actually caused by armrans hitting 3 dozen weak spots causing secondary explosions? even though with thousands of hits wirh rail guns the deadalus hasn't been able to hit any?

    It's amazing how the Wraith didn't think to protect that system a little better, considering how important and violatile it was.
    your point, it's due to it's organic design and size that it has these flaws, show be amram causing large explosions on the hull of a wraith ship and maybe someone will believe you...

    Evidence?
    Ra didn't know how to use it? and in Mckay and mrs millar we can see that Z.P.M is well over half full when we're draining it...

    There's a difference between being weak, and having a weakness.

    Zombies in general are weak. If I shoot one in the stomach, chances are that it'll pass right through.

    If I shoot one in the head, it's a weakness. Because not only will it pass right through, but it'll also disable them.
    nice anology flawed as it is...it has no relevence

    The Wraith won on sheer numbers. No matter how many you shoot down, more will show up. It would be like firing a machine gun into a beehive the size of a room, and expecting that to shut the hive ship down. It won't, not because the beehive is too strong, but becuase it's incredibly redundant.
    yes but you keep arguing that 3 dozen amrams can destroy them and that they've got hundreds of weak spots waiting to explode, your arguements contradict each other...if we pull your points together we have a bee hive the size of a room fill with nitro gluyerin being shot at with a machine gun claiming it's very redundant...it just doesn't work

    Again, like being in a dark room with a laser pointer. Yes, maybe I'll get lucky and find what I'm looking for in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't bet on it.
    well seeing as the wraith hives are filled with weaknesses according to you and we have thousands of laser points it should be realatively easy...once again contradicting yourself. If the armor is so easy to pierce one of your points and the hive itself is filled with things waiting to go boom another of your points then there should be explosions going off everywhere every time we fire at them, but this doesn't happen does it.

    Oh? Could you please cite where we've actually seen much higher yeilds, as opposed to inferring it based on nebulous feats of "Well, they once managed to damage X, which likely requires multi-gt yeilds"? For instance:

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s2/2...gate19351.html

    I don't know, looks pretty consistent with the fireballs we saw in Sateda to me.
    firstly STOP saying i said the wraith have multi gigaton or gigawatt as someone keeps reminding us weapons i haven't made a single point on this but i have shown pictures as valid as yours showing higher wraith yields which you have been unsuccessful in debunking...

    much higher yields...the hive and misbegotten seeing as you keep bringing it up...
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  19. #99
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    Hiroshima was 22 kilotons.

    I don't think any bolts from almost any of the weapons are gonna create anywhere NEAR a gigaton level explosion. I would like to point out for the third time, the energy weapons being used by the wraith ori goauld.. ect ect, are not releasing GIGATONS of energy, but maybe.. GIGAWATTS! >.<
    In Homecoming, you can pretty much gauge the strength of the Ha'tak blasts taking down Anubis's shields are in the AMRAM range based on the fact that you see them hitting buildings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    In that case of warheads fired at enemy ships, they're turned into missiles for necessary reasons.
    Except that aside from season 1 when the SGC program was still being kept top secret to the of the world, we've never seen multi-gigaton nukes fired at enemy ships.

    The light suspiciously turn into a luminous 2 km wide cloud.
    Oh, you measured the planet cloud and the planet, did you?

    Me:
    Sure, if nukes were free and plutonium refined itself. But if that were the case, why are they stuck with the Mark IIIs now, rather than the Mark XIII's they had at the beginning of the season? They hade plenty of chances to reload since then.

    You:
    1. Prove that they're stuck with that.
    2. The number is not a reference to the power of the nuke but a reference to time.
    CALDWELL: I want all operable missile tubes loaded with Mark Three tactical warheads.
    KLEINMAN: That’d be every one of our nukes, sir.


    In Siege, they make no mention of being low on nukes, although they do make a mention of how they shouldn't bother "wasting ordnance," and Caldwelll seems to listen. Between then and NML, they make no new attempts to fire nukes, and don't use any mre of them. So it's entirely possible that they still had Mark 8's on board, didn't see the use of "wasting ordnance," and switched to to a lower yeild model that they could fire in bulk.

    Ah, because now a greyish contrail due to a mix between the gas' own colour and the luminosity of the sun = bright flash.
    It's bright enough to be seen from space in broad daylight.

    If it hits near the camera, it's normal.
    Sure, if it releases a lot of light that floods the area, it is.

    I gave you evidence that the cruisers have systems that would require huge amounts of energy. What's hard to understand?
    Non-sequitor. Having systems that have huge amounts of energy doesn't change the fact that the blasts we saw didnt have much power.

    No, I'm just insiting that you prove your assertion, or retract.
    I've already posted numerous empirical examples showing that it's not that hard to see things from space. You have yet to post to the contrary.

    1. Not only.
    2. Prove it.
    WEIR: Alright, we have our city specs, mission reports and tactical assessments all ready to go. What else?
    McKAY: Well, I’ve included a ton of data that we’ve been able to decipher from the Ancient database.


    SHEPPARD: And you think it’s powerful enough to take out a Wraith hive ship?
    McKAY: According to the Ancient database, it should be able to take out all three when fully charged.


    So information on the Wraith ship was in the database, and Atlantis transmitted all the tactical information and information they could dicipher. Since the only reason they would bother sending the message in the first place was because the three hive ships were on the way, it is highly unlikely that they would send an SOS without looking up the specs first, so that SG1 would know what they were in for. (Remember, SGA didn't know that SGC would find a ZPM, and for all they knew, this would be the absolute last bit of information that SGC would recieve prior to the city getting destroyed and all the information lost forever. The main threat would be that the Wraith would eventually find their way to Earth, at which point, Earth would have to be prepared.)

    3a. Evidence that it would be achieved through pure raw power? - don't bother, I have proved it's not.
    Right, just like I can prove that a microwave works on "exotic principles" for the very same reason. "How is it that microwave radiation can manage to heat up this pizza in under a minute, without heating up the air as well? Obviously, it can't work on a DET principle!" (Actually, no. The microwave works like it does because it emits energy on a wavelength that that is absorbed by water. Pizza has a higher water content than air, and therefore, absorbs the energy more readily.).

    The same thing applies if the Ancient weapons work by, say, hurling highly charged particles designed to rip through the ship. "Why is it that these bullets can tear down the wall, causing heat, but don't really heat up the air as they pass through? Obviously, they must be exotic!" (Actually, no. According to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, the heat energy has to come from somewhere, mainly from the bullet stopping. The wall is more effective at stopping the bullet than the air does, and thus, heats up to a greater degree.)

    Your examples of "proof" are inconsistent with reality.

    Secondly, had the nukes exploded near the shields, their yields would have not been enough to knock them down.
    Oh, so you have a alternate scene where the nuke detonated succesfully, do you? Is it on the DVD?

    BTW, nukes are not the same thing as attack points. For instance, firing two 500 MT nukes at a ship would be far more efficient than firing a single 1GT nuke at a ship, simply because of the energy lost due to the inverse square law.

    And now, you want to believe that the SGC exactly knew what to do against an enemy they had very little information about, even less about their capital ships?
    Except for that thing called the Ancient database, sure.

    Duh. You just can't even understand something as simple as releasing several kilotons of energy within one second should have produced extremely large, white and blinding fireballs.
    Because it doesn't. Nuclear explosions are timed within 100 nanoseconds within a perfectly spherical lens (e.g., the smallest possible shape you can make with any given volume.). In order to make your statement true, you would have to add many, many qualifiers and specific parameters, which weren't in place here.

    Actually, your example of arguing that the Ancient Satellite is like a nuke and therefore should set off explosions like a nuke does is an example of a false analogy, property p being the specific parameters that allows a nuclear explosion to occur in the first place.

    Yes, because they can pierce shields according to exotic mechanisms.
    There's an ori beam that can't even level a mountain in one blow, and yet which manages to completely rape a Ha'tak's shield that can withstand low gigatons of energy per second.
    See above. Arguing "Even though we didn't see it withstand a 1-GT explosion, I still think it could" is not a valid argument.

    I was talking about Beckett's crazy drone that went for John's helicopter on its own. Care to follow, or you'd prefer to deny this?
    BECKETT: The second I shut my eyes, I could see you see, I felt power I've never had before, I had it dancing across the sky... it was magical it really was. They're lucky, I don't know where it came from I just tried to concentrate and the drone shut itself down *chuckles*

  20. #100
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    it was never intended to be a weapon, thereofore it's logical to assume seeing as the ancients had no known enemies that it wasn't heavily armored
    If they had no enemies, then where did the plague come from?

    the picture speaks for itself it's at least a couple of dozen feet thick...
    And I have no problem believing that the Ori beams can pass through that.

    i don't know the exact size of either but i doubt you could fit a thousands deadalus's in a hive ship...
    Basic geometry would tend to disagree.

    so motion made the blast appear 1000 times larger ok why didn't the hive or the deadalus have motion blur after accelerating around the black hole?
    Because they were moving away from/towards the camera rather than across it, and weren't primary light sources in themself?

    The deadalus was hit about 7-10 times and it's shields were failing and the fact that it can still fly through an acceleration disk shows how powerful wraith weapons are to drain asgard shields.
    Yes, where as Ori beams are completely ineffective on Asgard shields.

    they empty thousands of rounds into the hive ships so if they were able to pierce the armor
    Thousands of rounds on a ship 11 km across? Big deal.

    Circular Reasoning caldwell fires the rail guns so therefore they must be effective.
    Circular reasoning uses a premise that presumes the conclusion is true. e.g., Mark III must be multi-GT, because they can damage something that would require a multi-GT weapon to damage (Like the Mark III nuke.). The fact that Caldwell uses them can be independently verified.

    i was talking about direct hits to the hull, and explosions don't happen when energy blasts hit shields
    Caps from Allies disagree.

    so basically what your saying is that the dozens of huge explosions are actually caused by armrans hitting 3 dozen weak spots causing secondary explosions? even though with thousands of hits wirh rail guns the deadalus hasn't been able to hit any?
    1) Hive blasts can cover a far greater area than railgun fire, and therefore, have a more likely chance of hitting a weak spot.

    2) Wraith ships would know to find the weak spots better than the 304 would.

    your point, it's due to it's organic design and size that it has these flaws, show be amram causing large explosions on the hull of a wraith ship and maybe someone will believe you...
    Watch allies. Most of the missiles get intercepted, but one makes it through.

    well seeing as the wraith hives are filled with weaknesses according to you and we have thousands of laser points it should be realatively easy...
    Oh, so the Daedalus has thousands of railguns now?

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