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Thread: Mistakes in Space battles

  1. #1
    Second Lieutenant Anubis10545's Avatar
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    Default Mistakes in Space battles

    It seems like in almost every space battle (especially ones with 304s) their plan off attack is really lacking. By that I mean: Almost every time a Tau'ri-built ship is in a battle, it takes heavy damage when it could have easily been avoided. It occurs in countless episodes like:

    "Camelot" - The Odyssey and Korolev just stay in one spot while the Ori ships cut through them in just a few shots.

    "Off The Grid" - The Odyssey just stays in one spot when firing at the Lucian Alliance Ha'taks (although it does rotate 180 degrees).

    "The Siege, Part 3" - The Daedalus is basically standing still when it faces a fleet of 10 Hive ships and several cruisers.

    "The Hive" - The Daedalus flies in a straight line toward the two hive ships firing at it.

    "No Man's Land" - Well the Daedalus does move a bit more, it is basically flying straight toward the Hive at a relatively low speed.

    "Search and Rescue" - While its shields are lowered, the Daedalus is completely stopped, taking serious damage from a Wraith cruiser.

    "Enemy at the Gate" *The Daedalus stays in one spot making it an easy target for the series of shots the Hive Ship fires at it.
    *When Atlantis arrives at Earth, it only stays in one spot. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt on that one as citys generally aren't very maneuverable.

    -To name a few. The only one where they actually moved and evaded enemy fire was in "Be All My Sins Remember'd" during the Battle of Asuras. That's what made the battle so successful and exciting. It just seems like common sense that you don't fly in a straight line. It's suicide!!!

    This is unlikely, but this might be related to the trend of Bald 304 commanders...

  2. #2
    Second Lieutenant Commander Aegir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    I'd have to agree, although in seasons 4 and 5 they do seem to realise that a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one.

    The Daedalus should be able to balance out the lack of firepower with manouverability, being able to hit the Hive ship constantly without offering sufficient time for the hive to return fire accuratly.
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  3. #3
    Second Lieutenant Anubis10545's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    And especially against Hive Ships. They're so much larger than 304s, they can easily be out maneuvered. You would think that it actually be near-impossible for a Hive to hit a moving 304 for that very reason.

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  5. #5
    First Lieutenant Calhoun's Avatar
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    Earth Symbol Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    In "The Last Man" we saw the Phoenix dodging and weaving as much as possible, but there were just too many hives for it to avoid all the shots. And as Mitchell points out in "Flesh and Blood" (when trying to pick up an EV Carter) 304s aren't exactly easy to move.

    I mean, we're talking about something as big as an aircraft carrier; they don't exactly turn on a "dime". And in space, when you don't have air resistance to slow you down, once you set off on one path, it takes a huge amount of extra energy to then counter-act that momentum and change your course.
    Last edited by Calhoun; January 18th, 2009 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Typo
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  6. #6
    Second Lieutenant Anubis10545's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    In "The Last Man" we saw the Phoenix dodging and weaving as much as possible, but there were just too many hives for it to avoid all the shots. And as Mitchell points out in "Flesh and Blood" (when trying to pick up an EV Carter) 304s aren't exactly easy to move.

    I mean, we're talking about something as big as an aircraft carrier; they don't exactly turn on a "dime". And in space, when you don't have air resistance to slow you down, once you set off on one path, it takes a huge amount of extra energy to then counter-act that momentum and change your course.
    True... still, Moving generally results in better... results. And the Phoenix was ambushed. That was one of the only times in the series that happened. And that was a pretty awesome space battle, as was the Battle of Asuras. Therefore, Moving = Awesome And well other factors are at play here, evasive maneuvers play a large part in winning a battle.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    I at least think it is refreshing that we lose quite a few space battles (two ships have been completely destroyed, not including the one in the last man).

    We haven't been in space for long as well. So we are unlikely to have developed decent space battle tactics.

    At least SG1 doesn't suffer from 2D itus.Whereby all ships come in and attack in the same plane (See star trek) We have in this show occasions when enemies realise that space is 3D and one can attack from above and below. This was irritating in Deep Space Nine, the complete disregard for the concept of space being 3 dimensional during battles.

  8. #8
    Major General morjana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis10545 View Post
    It seems like in almost every space battle (especially ones with 304s) their plan off attack is really lacking. By that I mean: Almost every time a Tau'ri-built ship is in a battle, it takes heavy damage when it could have easily been avoided. It occurs in countless episodes like:
    I guess it never occurred to you from our perspective it looks like the ships are standing still. We're watching that moment of time -- we don't know what was happening before we saw the impact. And space is not limited to left or right movements, ships are freely able to ascend and descend as well.

    We're watching the results in a 2D format.

  9. #9
    First Lieutenant Major V1125's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    interesting...they should improv their tactics...XD

  10. #10
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by morjana View Post
    I guess it never occurred to you from our perspective it looks like the ships are standing still. We're watching that moment of time -- we don't know what was happening before we saw the impact. And space is not limited to left or right movements, ships are freely able to ascend and descend as well.

    We're watching the results in a 2D format.
    No, we've seen the 304s move before, so we know it's not just the perspective. They really do just sit there and take enemy fire when they could easily move out of the way.
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  11. #11
    Chief Master Sergeant Matthew486DX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    This thread only makes me think of this.

    http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/fa...ship-maneuvers

  12. #12

    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    304's suck at manuverabilty so that explains some things lol. And sam is probaly the only not bald 304 commander lol
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  13. #13
    Chief Master Sergeant Nightfighter89's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander Aegir View Post
    The Daedalus should be able to balance out the lack of firepower with manouverability, being able to hit the Hive ship constantly without offering sufficient time for the hive to return fire accuratly.
    Well once the Asgard beams are installed they rarely have the need to evade since they can destroy a hive ship in the first 5 seconds of the engagement with a few shots. That means that any force less than 3 or 4 hives will be destroyed before firing enough shots to pose a real threat.

    In the case of the super hive, they should have evaded. Those batteries looked sunk into the ship and therefore the whole ship would have had to maneuver to track them, which I doubt it could have done adequately. They should have been able to fly circles around it and at the very least force it to run.

  14. #14
    First Lieutenant Finger13's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew486DX View Post
    This thread only makes me think of this.

    http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/fa...ship-maneuvers
    Hahaha, that's great.

    Quote Originally Posted by wkw427 View Post
    In Unending, the Oddy moves. If it didn't move it would be dead
    Exactly, we see the Odyssey do a pretty tight 180 in Unending. It's being followed by the Ori Mothership, and is able to turn completely and attack it from the side in a relatively short distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    In "The Last Man" we saw the Phoenix dodging and weaving as much as possible, but there were just too many hives for it to avoid all the shots. And as Mitchell points out in "Flesh and Blood" (when trying to pick up an EV Carter) 304s aren't exactly easy to move.

    I mean, we're talking about something as big as an aircraft carrier; they don't exactly turn on a "dime". And in space, when you don't have air resistance to slow you down, once you set off on one path, it takes a huge amount of extra energy to then counter-act that momentum and change your course.
    That's because they're trying to pluck a person out of space. That'd be difficult with any ship of its size.

    Combat maneuvers are entirely different than trying to scoop a person up without flattening them, which is what Mitchell was having trouble with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ha'TakFord View Post
    304's suck at manuverabilty so that explains some things lol. And sam is probaly the only not bald 304 commander lol
    Pendergast and Emerson weren't bald . I guess they both died though.

    And there's no reason to assume that they suck at maneuvering. I think it's just lazy writing to give our ships a disadvantage. In fact, the only battle that I can recall that involved a lot of maneuvers was in The Lost Tribe.

  15. #15
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    The travlers and the lost tribe manuver alot though the lost tribe are insanly advanced and the travlers live on ships so you would expect them to be the best crew.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    I mean, we're talking about something as big as an aircraft carrier; they don't exactly turn on a "dime". And in space, when you don't have air resistance to slow you down, once you set off on one path, it takes a huge amount of extra energy to then counter-act that momentum and change your course.
    i contest that statement.

    they are at most the size of a united states navy destroyes (into a carrier you could pack a lot more people, weapons, equipment and: F302's (they only have two hangars with what? eight 302's each? making it 16! a carrier has about 100 fighter planes + engines+fuel (for the fighters)+rockets/ammo/spareparts+crew and such) so, the 302 must be a lot smaller (in one episode they beam the whole crew down and it's not that many people (50-100 - try to get an aircraft carrier manned with those....)

    about moving: they F-304's are fast (we see that everytime they run away from something, they are agile (seen in "unending") and they have arms all around, so moving should not be a problem

    i think it's because a CGI with it moving is harder to make and more expensive (and in some cases, the ship taking damage is part of the plot)

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    I'm pretty sure that the Daedalus was still trying to protect the puddle jumper in "Enemy at the Gate."

  18. #18
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    yup it was. and our ships are manually controlled. meaning: marks was still buisy with the "evasive maneuvers, ready all missiles" thing when the hive fired.

  19. #19
    Major jds1982's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Laxian of Earth View Post
    i contest that statement.

    they are at most the size of a united states navy destroyes (into a carrier you could pack a lot more people, weapons, equipment and: F302's (they only have two hangars with what? eight 302's each? making it 16! a carrier has about 100 fighter planes + engines+fuel (for the fighters)+rockets/ammo/spareparts+crew and such) so, the 302 must be a lot smaller (in one episode they beam the whole crew down and it's not that many people (50-100 - try to get an aircraft carrier manned with those....)
    Yes, but an aircraft carrier doesn't have to carry it's own life support, so you could have a much larger crew for the same size ship. I think most of the ship is taken up with equipment (missiles, cargo bays, hyperdrive systems, etc...). Not to mention, with advanced technology you probably need less people to do things.
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  20. #20
    Second Lieutenant Andru10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mistakes in Space battles

    304s have inertial dampeners which reduce part of their mass so theoretically they're lighter than an aircraft carrier. That would explain why Odyssey was so maneuverable in Unending. I don't understand why they don't pull stunts like that more often. Or: head towards your enemy at full speed firing on them with everything you have then open a hyperspace window and exit hyperspace behind them, do a backflip like in Unending and target the engines.

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