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    Pretty messed up....

    I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?
    Vice Admiral and occasionally the Acting Leader of the Gateworld Cantina
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    #2
    Why? Hmm good question indeed.

    Perhaps, Sheppard likely thought he sold them to the Wraith, and the reason why Carson and Mckay were captured. He even put a gun to his head and even if the guy denied it, I don't think Sheppard bought it.

    I think the head of the village person went through with it, because he felt it was murder either way. Perhaps he felt that the rogue villagers damned themselves by damning others first and not thinking rationally. Remember what Carson said? It would easier to just pull the trigger and kill them yourself right now. *Great Carson moment btw*

    Gotta say, some really dark stuff going on with this episode.
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      #3
      Originally posted by tombombadil View Post
      I think it was pretty messed up of the team to use that dude(the one who tried to turn the people over to the wraith) to lure the wraith into a trap, and then blow him up.....even if the guy was guilty, he was still acting for what he thought was good for the village.....does anyone else think this was wrong?
      I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.

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        #4
        If eg Team Shep would have gone after them into the mine, and started shooting, Jervis was going to shoot back at them.

        Can't have that, so boom it is.

        In Loving Memory of Wraithlord.

        I wish I got to know you better.

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          #5
          Originally posted by haloplayer View Post
          I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.
          Actually the Nazi's were well aware of the fact it was wrong. They even tried to destroy records they kept of the people they killed during the last days in power. tried to speed up the killing process instead of sending more troops to the losing front lines--getting rid of survivor. You don't try to destroy incriminating evidence if you think you are in the right. Most lower ranking Nazi's were "following orders" and if they refused would be in fear of thier own lives and the lives of their families.

          Many of the commoners in Germany had not known what was going on and simply assumed the Jews were just sent away. Many of the surrounding townspeople were forced to walk through the camps after Americans liberated them. Many of the German citizens were horrified by it.

          The higher ups decided the camps was a great way to expand presonal space, get rid of the jews (which were seen as greedy american lovers and deemed less than worthy of life.) The scary part is the US actually gave Hitler the idea. Yes, we did it when we placed the Indians on Reservations. Hitler not only thought confining a select group to a camp was not only great but took it one step further and turned it into a human processing planet of death.

          As for SGA:

          I didn't actually see the ep so I will not coment on what sheppard sis in the ep. However, the character's actions in MC was enough to turn my stomach.

          It's like stargate has no idea what it wants to be. It's not sure if it should be an edgy BSG type drama, a comedy, a classic sci-fi show, star trek, an action show, a romance show. The show idendity disorder makes me dizzy just thinking about it.

          I believe it's wrong for the writer's to make sheppard a dark type of character after they established him as the "cool, funny pilot" type leader. It's makes him very OoC.

          Just imagine the damage that would be done if the writers of BSG decided to make that show a comedy! Suddenly Starbuck is running around in a bikini, Admiral Adama is getting lost on his own ship and locked out of rooms, Appollo becomes a "sheppard" type character that flirts with all the girls. Make Baltar into Mckay...would end up being pretty ridculas.
          Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric.

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            #6
            Originally posted by haloplayer View Post
            I can say the same for the Germans in WW2. The Nazi's felt what they were doing was right and good when the slaughtered the Jews. Just because someone who thought he was doing good does not get a Get out of Jail free card.
            (the slaughtered jews you speak of are my ancestors)
            i don't think he should be excused by any means.i'm just saying he should've had a trial.
            Vice Admiral and occasionally the Acting Leader of the Gateworld Cantina
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              #7
              Originally posted by tombombadil View Post
              (the slaughtered jews you speak of are my ancestors)
              i don't think he should be excused by any means.i'm just saying he should've had a trial.
              How can your ancestors be slaughtered if you're here? Unless you were already around during WW2...? Never met an old timer who likes SGA so much...

              But in any case, the character in question was willing to sacrifice lives of others to (possibly) save his own. He chose his fate.

              Notice how the elder didn't open the cell, they had a choice.

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                #8
                Originally posted by Zamboni View Post
                How can your ancestors be slaughtered if you're here? Unless you were already around during WW2...? Never met an old timer who likes SGA so much...

                But in any case, the character in question was willing to sacrifice lives of others to (possibly) save his own. He chose his fate.

                Notice how the elder didn't open the cell, they had a choice.

                my dad was born in 1946, he's 62 and loves stargate sg-1 and atlantis

                plus on sheppards defense, he didn't know if the people who were locked up were gonna go with the wraith, it's their own damn fault.

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                  #9
                  This was actually extremely messed up.
                  I can think of numerous episodes where traitors have been killed at the hands of the episodes enemies. However I can never think of one where any team has used them as a pawn.

                  And it wasn't just him. All his colleagues from the cell were also with him.
                  Stargate has always been unrealistic in its portrayal in that everyone important survives without having complex moral judgements. It was just as slack if not more than the GitM episode.

                  If anything the leader himself should have gone to get the Wraith and lure them. He would have at least known what he was sacrificing etc. He was pretty spineless. Mind you I always hate Stargate's "good for the tribe" uprighteous traitors but still they had no right to kill him.

                  I am not going to get into the Nazi thing cause I don't know and when you read books like "The Wave" (i think).

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                    #10
                    Why does it matter? Sure there's moral ambiguity, but it was their only realistic way off of the planet. The men who were in that cell were there because they betrayed other innocent people.

                    You pick your side and stick with it, and they clearly weren't on ours.

                    It'd be like being held at gun point and being told to kill others, and going through with it, then acting surprised when it comes back to haunt you. These guys rounded up others and handed them over to their almost certain deaths, and Shepperd merely did the same.

                    Not to mention that by killing what, less than a dozen irrational and untrustworthy people who had clearly shown they were willing to do the Wraith's bidding, Shepperd saved hundreds of people. He also had the support of the town's leader, in fact it was the town's leader who ultimately sent his own men to their deaths, so...

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                      #11
                      so why didn't the leader go himself.
                      If a bad guy did this-we would be waxing lyrical about how evil/cold hearted they are. Or how they used their comrades as pawns to remove a power struggle.

                      At the end of the day these "bad" guys tried to help their population. The atlantis team + the leader (who I have a bigger issue with) used this against them and used them as bait. Would have seemed more dignified if they gave them the choice and if they refused then the leader could have done it himself.

                      I guess my primary annoyance has been the hypocrisy. There have been entire evil populations, traitorous leaders and even some main characters who should have been killed of by the SG1/SGA teams. Except they got a relative slap on the wrist compared to a couple of "witch hunters" (who didn't all need to die).

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Fan-e-Gate View Post
                        so why didn't the leader go himself.
                        If a bad guy did this-we would be waxing lyrical about how evil/cold hearted they are. Or how they used their comrades as pawns to remove a power struggle.
                        Perhaps he offered, but Sheppard had more faith in the leader's ability to fool the others with his acting abilities than the Wraith. When he gave the others the keys, he was ashamed of himself and it showed, but they assumed it was because he was letting them turn in the Balarans. However, with the Wraith, even if he did have the courage to go through with sacrificing himself, (he may have believed he did, but with a person like that one can't know until in the thick of things) he would've had to not shown any signs that he was afraid for his own safety or he'd tip them off. Something, which really isn't remotely easy to do for most people in such a situation (a lot of people would begin to uncontrollably shake and/or give it away in their voice, mannerisms, and expressions) and something I doubt any of those simple villagers could've pulled off. So, by using the others they were assured that the Wraith would be lead to their deaths by people who were genuine about their intent. Thus the Wraith would have no reason to believe something was amiss (they only had one shot at it so if there was a screw up, chances are everyone would've died).

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                          #13
                          I dont think it was messed up at all, I would have done the exact same thing in given the same circumstances. That guy was willing to shop them all to the Wraith, not just the Balarans (sp?), he knew full well Sheppard and all the rest would have been caught also. From the beginning that guy wanted to hand them over to the Wraith without even considering an alternative so tbh I think he got exactly what he deserved. Might sound harsh but what other options were there? Like someone has already mentioned, he clearly wasent on our side, it's not like it was a simple disagreement, he was going to hand them over to the Wraith. I dont see any moral dilemma in this and I dont really see what all the fuss is about ... Sheppard done what was right imo.

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                            #14
                            I'm not sure but i was under the impression that the first group of Balarans were taken by the wraith, I thought this might be part of the logic that lead to Sheppard sacrifice/murder, as they sent a group of innocent people to there death.
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                            O'Neill - "What?"
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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jackie View Post
                              It's like stargate has no idea what it wants to be. It's not sure if it should be an edgy BSG type drama, a comedy, a classic sci-fi show, star trek, an action show, a romance show. The show idendity disorder makes me dizzy just thinking about it.
                              I don't see it as an identity crisis - I see it as the show being capable of doing different things, which is no bad thing IMO.

                              I believe it's wrong for the writer's to make sheppard a dark type of character after they established him as the "cool, funny pilot" type leader. It's makes him very OoC.
                              Or, you know, layered. It's not like this is something sudden - Shep's had his darker moments since the first season - raising the shield to stop the Genii, shooting Bob...

                              Just imagine the damage that would be done if the writers of BSG decided to make that show a comedy! Suddenly Starbuck is running around in a bikini, Admiral Adama is getting lost on his own ship and locked out of rooms, Appollo becomes a "sheppard" type character that flirts with all the girls. Make Baltar into Mckay...would end up being pretty ridculas.
                              That's not really the same thing... Or even similar.

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