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Carson: From healer, to bringer of death

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    Carson: From healer, to bringer of death

    I liked the episode okay, but I think it raised many ethical questions. Already a thread has been started regarding John's behavior, but what about Carson. Wasn't he a doctor once? Wasn't he responsible for saving lives?

    I am very disturbed by the coldness of his actions. A healer should look for ways to save, not to destroy. The fact that he destroyed the Wraith's medical data is upsetting enough - who knows what good it could have brought to human and Wraith alike. In this, Carson reminded me of an American doctor in Iraq who only saves Americans, and not wounded Iraqis. If we heard of such a thing on the news, we'd be outraged - a doctor is supposed to save hero and criminal alike - he is not supposed to make moral decisions of who lives, and who dies.

    So, Carson has turned into a bringer of death. I knew this long before the episode (it was a give that Michael have treated him with the hoffan drug), but to see him being so ruthless about it…well, I expect such behavior from Wraith, but not from self-righteous humans.

    I have long said that the humans act more like Wraith than the Wraith do - and I think Carson just proved it.

    And before you go all 'but they're Wraith', blah, blah, blah' - like I've said before - the Wraith are not hypocrites, they are what they are. But the humans preach life, while delivering more death than the Wraith ever have.

    Let's do a body count. In this episode, maybe one human died at Wraith hands (that we can be fairly sure of). But how many died at human hands? Well, I don't know what happened to the first group of humans delivered to the Wraith by the other humans. If the Wraith killed them, it is really the humans who are responsible. Then, the humans (Sheppard & the villagers), killed another half-dozen humans in the explosion, maybe more. And many Wraith. Oh, and Carson killed a Wraith.

    So, by the looks of it, the humans were responsible for the deaths of several dozen Wraith and fellow humans in this episode, while the Wraith maybe killed one human. Do the math.

    das
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    #2
    Carson did tests on others and himself but he KNEW that he can take his own risk if his test fail, he get courage to dare the wraith to feed on Carson but Carson realized that it works successfully as the wraith fell and died by toxins from him. Now It will be Todd's turn...


    ( Grab Carson and run.)

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      #3
      Carson really didn't have much choice. If he hadn't killed the one Wraith, the Wraith would have killed hundreds, maybe thousands of people.
      Meh...

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        #4
        I have to disagree. A rather interesting debate I must add. Carson once again was willing to sacrifice himself to save others in this episode. He was not going to help with the research so he took a chance in hoping he could escape with Mckay and save the rest of the people on the planet and in the galaxy. Rodney basically hit the nail on the head when he says to Carson "You cannot solve all the problems of the Pegasus Galaxy in one day".

        It's a very moral issue, and gotta say this is the kind of episode that make the show have so many levels and gives the characters a more 3D feel to them.
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          #5
          Originally posted by Briangate78 View Post
          I have to disagree. A rather interesting debate I must add. Carson once again was willing to sacrifice himself to save others in this episode. He was not going to help with the research so he took a chance in hoping he could escape with Mckay and save the rest of the people on the planet and in the galaxy. Rodney basically hit the nail on the head when he says to Carson "You cannot solve all the problems of the Pegasus Galaxy in one day".

          It's a very moral issue, and gotta say this is the kind of episode that make the show have so many levels and gives the characters a more 3D feel to them.
          I totally agree with you
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            #6
            Everyone gets blood on their hands in the Pegasus galaxy. Except for Mister Woolsey. Mister Woolsey is still without sin.

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              #7
              Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
              I am very disturbed by the coldness of his actions. A healer should look for ways to save, not to destroy. The fact that he destroyed the Wraith's medical data is upsetting enough - who knows what good it could have brought to human and Wraith alike. In this, Carson reminded me of an American doctor in Iraq who only saves Americans, and not wounded Iraqis. If we heard of such a thing on the news, we'd be outraged - a doctor is supposed to save hero and criminal alike - he is not supposed to make moral decisions of who lives, and who dies.
              So he was supposed to leave the data there for the Wraith to find and use? It is very clear what the outcome would have been in that case; the Wraith would have found all those immune, killed them, and then gone on to cull indiscriminately.

              I understand the whole, "Wraith are only doing what their physiology dictates" and I am sympathetic to it. But it also undeniable that, perhaps unlike Todd, these Wraith were not keen on the whole "let's find an alternative feeding solution" idea. Their only interest was to find those immune and eliminate them from the feeding pool.

              In which case, providing them with that data would have been a surefire way to ensure the deaths of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of more people.

              Carson made the choice he believed would do the least harm. That's all anyone can do.

              So, Carson has turned into a bringer of death. I knew this long before the episode (it was a give that Michael have treated him with the hoffan drug), but to see him being so ruthless about it…well, I expect such behavior from Wraith, but not from self-righteous humans.
              Are you referring to him being ruthless with the Wraith he killed by convincing him to feed? That Wraith had kidnapped Rodney and himself, was holding them hostage under the threat of death for the hundreds of people on the planet below, and you're saying Carson should have gone easy on him? Wraith or human, I do not sympathize with a being willing to barter lives.

              I have long said that the humans act more like Wraith than the Wraith do - and I think Carson just proved it.
              That argument....has never made any sense to me.

              And before you go all 'but they're Wraith', blah, blah, blah' - like I've said before - the Wraith are not hypocrites, they are what they are. But the humans preach life, while delivering more death than the Wraith ever have.
              Sure. Some of them are intelligent, rational beings (a la Todd) willing to see both sides of the coin and willing to negotiate a scenario where all sides may ultimately be happy.

              And some are evil sociopaths willing to kill hundred of lives in order to eliminate the risk of danger to themselves. They don't hold true to their words and kill those that help.

              And some others use human beings as slaves and runners.

              In other words, there are varying types of Wraiths just as there are varying types of humans; some are more good than others while some are just plain evil.

              As for humans delivering more death? You sure about that? The Wraith have been alive longer than this present evolution of humans has had modern civilization and the vast numbers we have today. And they've been killing a heck of a lot longer.

              But if you're referring to only during this war, I suggest you rethink those calculations.

              Let's do a body count. In this episode, maybe one human died at Wraith hands (that we can be fairly sure of).
              Please note that he died because the Wraith you hold in such high esteem broke his word of safety to him.

              But how many died at human hands? Well, I don't know what happened to the first group of humans delivered to the Wraith by the other humans. If the Wraith killed them, it is really the humans who are responsible. Then, the humans (Sheppard & the villagers), killed another half-dozen humans in the explosion, maybe more. And many Wraith. Oh, and Carson killed a Wraith.

              So, by the looks of it, the humans were responsible for the deaths of several dozen Wraith and fellow humans in this episode, while the Wraith maybe killed one human. Do the math.
              Please do take into account the type of Wraiths we encountered here. You honestly think that they would have let anyone live?

              The one Wraith commander had already proven what kind of Wraith he was by failing to keep his promise to that man that had done him a service, why then would you assume that he would have kept his word to not kill anyone else?

              Why are you automatically assuming that these Wraiths are sooooo much better beings than the humans?

              I understand that it's a "cool" stance to take - the Wraith defender - but why do it so indiscriminately?

              Like I've said, what was Sheppard to do? Leave the whole village to die or use those few men to lure the Wraith away so more people could live?

              Unsavory yes, but let's not pretend like the Wraith would have just walked away from a potential culling ground when they got those few immune humans.
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                #8
                Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                So he was supposed to leave the data there for the Wraith to find and use?
                Who's to say what good that research could have served. Just because it was in Wraith hands doesn't mean it couldn't eventually help humans - like the Replicator data.

                In which case, providing them with that data would have been a surefire way to ensure the deaths of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of more people.
                Betcha Rodney and Daniel killed more humans in a day by activating that Attero device. Look - bottom line is this - the Wraith kill, yes - but the humans have probably been responsible for more human deaths than the Wraith have since waking (between the Replicators, Michael, the hoffan drug, Attero device, etc, etc, etc...). Can't put everything on the Wraith while ignoring all the human lives lost because of the Lanteans (I HOPE this is addressed next week, but somehow I believe they will be justified in the end. As always.)

                Carson made the choice he believed would do the least harm. That's all anyone can do.
                Perhaps. But he is still a doctor. It's not so much that he killed the Wraith, it's how he did it, without conscience. He egged the Wraith on into a confrontation, then used his medical knowledge to kill him. He - Carson - was the instigator, and he used his medical knowledge as a weapon. That is what disturbs me.

                Are you referring to him being ruthless with the Wraith he killed by convincing him to feed? That Wraith had kidnapped Rodney and himself, was holding them hostage under the threat of death for the hundreds of people on the planet below, and you're saying Carson should have gone easy on him? Wraith or human, I do not sympathize with a being willing to barter lives.
                We can go on and on about this - from the humans kidnapping and poisoning Steve, to murdering Bob in a cell, to holding Todd captive - a Wraith who offered his trust - until he nearly starved to death. The humans have been extremely cold-blooded and heartless to the Wraith, another sentient species, and NOT out of necessity, but because they feel they have the right to judge the inhabitants of a galaxy they have just invaded. They have deceived the Wraith, they have tortured them, they have experimented on them, they have slaughtered them - male, female and child - though unprovoked (The Hive, for instance - a classic case where the humans attacked Wraith without cause, but out of hate and prejudice). Sure, the Wraith feed - and kill - in order to sustain themselves, but the humans, especially the Lanteans, kill just because they have set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner.

                That argument....has never made any sense to me.
                See above.

                And some are evil sociopaths willing to kill hundred of lives in order to eliminate the risk of danger to themselves. They don't hold true to their words and kill those that help.
                1. How can they trust humans who make deals with them - the Wraith have been double-crossed far more often than the humans, from the episodes I've seen.

                2. We slaughter hundreds, even thousands, of our livestock because of hoof and mouth disease, hundreds of thousands of chickens because of bird flu - we do it to protect our food supply. How are we different from Wraith who are merely doing the same - protecting their food supply.

                In other words, there are varying types of Wraiths just as there are varying types of humans; some are more good than others while some are just plain evil.
                I agree - there are a few individual Wraith who are 'evil', but for the most part, they are just thousands and thousands of very hungry bugs, trying to find enough food to survive.

                As for humans delivering more death? You sure about that? The Wraith have been alive longer than this present evolution of humans has had modern civilization and the vast numbers we have today. And they've been killing a heck of a lot longer.

                But if you're referring to only during this war, I suggest you rethink those calculations.
                One Wraith needs only about 6 humans a year to survive. They also hibernate for hundreds of years at a time. They kill primarily to eat, though they do also kill to keep civilizations from advancing. Still...humans kill, too. They murder out of hate and jealousy and fear. The Lanteans alone have been responsible for hundreds of thousands - maybe millions - of human deaths by now - as I mentioned above.

                Please note that he died because the Wraith you hold in such high esteem broke his word of safety to him.
                Yeah, well...lemme see - we've got Michael. If we want to start talking broken words, we should start there.

                Please do take into account the type of Wraiths we encountered here. You honestly think that they would have let anyone live?
                I can't say for sure. The commander killed the man because he was poisoned (food safety issue). Would he have culled the village? Perhaps. Depending on how hungry is hive was. But at least they would have been killing for food, and not for 'sport'.

                Why are you automatically assuming that these Wraiths are sooooo much better beings than the humans?
                Because, I know human nature. And, I watch the news. Humans have the capacity to do things far worse than feeding on a species considered inferior.

                I understand that it's a "cool" stance to take - the Wraith defender - but why do it so indiscriminately?
                It has nothing to do with being 'cool'. I truly believe that - in the fictional realm of SGA - the Wraith took better care of their galaxy, and especially of their human herds, than the Lanteans, who have stepped in and screwed everything up. At least under Wraith dominion, most civilizations had hundreds of years of peace, with some (according to RepliWeir) even becoming advanced societies, right under the Wraith's little green noses.

                Like I've said, what was Sheppard to do? Leave the whole village to die or use those few men to lure the Wraith away so more people could live?
                Oh, lemme see. ALL of the humans could have hidden in the caves (seems the Wraith are clueless about caves), while Shep and Co. lured the Wraith away from the gate. Many ways they could have done this...including making it appear that the villagers had travelled to point A...say, by setting up a fake campsite...so that while some went to investigate, the Lanteans could have taken out those at the gate and evacuated the humans. That is just one simple option.

                There were options for everyone here, except - maybe - the Wraith...seeing as they still have that pesky need to feed thing going on.


                das
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                  So he was supposed to leave the data there for the Wraith to find and use? It is very clear what the outcome would have been in that case; the Wraith would have found all those immune, killed them, and then gone on to cull indiscriminately.
                  *standing ovation* Destroying medical data to keep it from falling into the hands of hostiles is a medically ethical thing to do.

                  Let's also not forget that it's a lot easier to engineer a plague than a retrovirus that makes aliens human. Eliminating the species barrier was the quickest plan with the least loss of life.

                  Unlike Ronon's plan: extermination.

                  Originally posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
                  I understand the whole, "Wraith are only doing what their physiology dictates" and I am sympathetic to it. But it also undeniable that, perhaps unlike Todd, these Wraith were not keen on the whole "let's find an alternative feeding solution" idea. Their only interest was to find those immune and eliminate them from the feeding pool.
                  I'd also like to point out that at no point in the 10,000 years since the Ancients left have the Wraith made any attempt, much less succeeded, to get off sentient feed -- even with pet Wraith Worshippers to chat with and humans smart enough to kill them or blow them up. Todd is the most level-headed Wraith around and even he admitted that getting the general Wraith population to accept non-sentient food would be difficult even with possible starvation on the line.

                  The Wraith are happy with the status quo, which disolves the "physiology dictates." Their actions are a choice, unfortuneately a choice that makes war inevitable.

                  And a final point? If the Wraith could, they would come to Earth and happily much on human and Jaffa alike. They tried three already. Which means, Wraith Defender Folks, that if this was reality-land you'd be on the menu even with Doctor Retrovirus over there.

                  DragonLady
                  "I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then, and I am not saying anything now." -- Delenn

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                    2. We slaughter hundreds, even thousands, of our livestock because of hoof and mouth disease, hundreds of thousands of chickens because of bird flu - we do it to protect our food supply. How are we different from Wraith who are merely doing the same - protecting their food supply.
                    Yes, but our food supply can't speak our language, use our weapons, invent their own weapons, and blow s**t up. The Wraith have talked with the Lanteans, talked with their Wraith Worshippers, made deals with random humanoid inhabitants, stolen and appropriated human technology (ZPMs, if you count Ancients in with humans since they're both edible and they look alike) and yet, still, the Wraith are down with eating people.

                    That's not an imperative. That's a choice.

                    Also, Wraith may NEED to feed on only 6 humans a year just like a human only NEEDS to feed once every other day or so. But how many people do you know choose to eat that rarely if they can get more? Cullings happend too quickly and take too many people for the Wraith to be fasting.

                    DragonLady
                    "I'm not saying anything. I did not say anything then, and I am not saying anything now." -- Delenn

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                      Betcha Rodney and Daniel killed more humans in a day by activating that Attero device.
                      Difference being that they didn't know that was going to happen. The Wraith know very well what will happen every time they cull and feed.

                      Look - bottom line is this - the Wraith kill, yes - but the humans have probably been responsible for more human deaths than the Wraith have since waking (between the Replicators, Michael, the hoffan drug, Attero device, etc, etc, etc...). Can't put everything on the Wraith while ignoring all the human lives lost because of the Lanteans (I HOPE this is addressed next week, but somehow I believe they will be justified in the end. As always.)
                      I really, really doubt that. But it can't be proven one way or the other so the point is moot.

                      Perhaps. But he is still a doctor. It's not so much that he killed the Wraith, it's how he did it, without conscience. He egged the Wraith on into a confrontation, then used his medical knowledge to kill him. He - Carson - was the instigator, and he used his medical knowledge as a weapon. That is what disturbs me.
                      I would think that the Wraith threatening to kill hundreds of lives if Carson didn't cooperate was the instigator. By killing him, Carson saved those hundreds of lives. Now what were you saying about humans causing more deaths?

                      We can go on and on about this - from the humans kidnapping and poisoning Steve, to murdering Bob in a cell, to holding Todd captive - a Wraith who offered his trust - until he nearly starved to death. The humans have been extremely cold-blooded and heartless to the Wraith, another sentient species, and NOT out of necessity, but because they feel they have the right to judge the inhabitants of a galaxy they have just invaded.
                      As DragonLady pointed out rather masterfully, the Wraith have had 10 000 years and enormous amount of tech at their disposal to find another way to feed. They chose to keep feeding on humans.

                      We humans, at least some of us, have chosen to find alternatives to eating meat when our physiology dictates that we should.

                      They have deceived the Wraith, they have tortured them, they have experimented on them, they have slaughtered them - male, female and child - though unprovoked (The Hive, for instance - a classic case where the humans attacked Wraith without cause, but out of hate and prejudice).
                      And how exactly did the Wraith-sensing Athosians come into existence? Through some anomalous genetic mutation? No. They were kidnapped and tortured and experimented on. The Wraith are hardly as blameless as you would like to portray them.

                      Sure, the Wraith feed - and kill - in order to sustain themselves, but the humans, especially the Lanteans, kill just because they have set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner.
                      They kill to survive, to protect their families and their ways of life. Much like those villagers you claimed to have been murdered for attempting to do exactly that.

                      1. How can they trust humans who make deals with them - the Wraith have been double-crossed far more often than the humans, from the episodes I've seen.
                      Ah yes. Because the humans have never been double-crossed by the Wraith. Virus on the Daedalus anyone?

                      And Todd has never offered assistance without some ulterior unshared motive. No, of course not. [/end sarcasm]

                      2. We slaughter hundreds, even thousands, of our livestock because of hoof and mouth disease, hundreds of thousands of chickens because of bird flu - we do it to protect our food supply. How are we different from Wraith who are merely doing the same - protecting their food supply.
                      We have come up with alternative for those humans interested enough to put them to use. There are vegetarians and vegans among us. Show me a Wraith who has done as much in over 10 000 years of existence.

                      I agree - there are a few individual Wraith who are 'evil', but for the most part, they are just thousands and thousands of very hungry bugs, trying to find enough food to survive.
                      A quaint, romantic notion.

                      Yeah, well...lemme see - we've got Michael. If we want to start talking broken words, we should start there.
                      And the Wraith have the Athosians and whomever else they experimented upon.

                      Glass houses?

                      It has nothing to do with being 'cool'. I truly believe that - in the fictional realm of SGA - the Wraith took better care of their galaxy, and especially of their human herds, than the Lanteans, who have stepped in and screwed everything up. At least under Wraith dominion, most civilizations had hundreds of years of peace, with some (according to RepliWeir) even becoming advanced societies, right under the Wraith's little green noses.
                      You mean hundreds of years of living in constant fear. Yep, that's an awesome way to live. I totally can't see why everybody doesn't want that for their children.

                      Oh, lemme see. ALL of the humans could have hidden in the caves (seems the Wraith are clueless about caves), while Shep and Co. lured the Wraith away from the gate. Many ways they could have done this...including making it appear that the villagers had travelled to point A...say, by setting up a fake campsite...so that while some went to investigate, the Lanteans could have taken out those at the gate and evacuated the humans. That is just one simple option.
                      Dead Wraith are easier to fight and pose less of a threat than diverted ones.
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                        Who's to say what good that research could have served. Just because it was in Wraith hands doesn't mean it couldn't eventually help humans - like the Replicator data.
                        Carson kept the data from the Wraith by destroying it, but he had already finished the research. That's how he knew he had the virus. Now, all he has to do is reproduce what he learned. The data is not lost to all, simply to the Wraith.

                        Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                        Perhaps. But he is still a doctor. It's not so much that he killed the Wraith, it's how he did it, without conscience. He egged the Wraith on into a confrontation, then used his medical knowledge to kill him. He - Carson - was the instigator, and he used his medical knowledge as a weapon. That is what disturbs me.
                        Carson used the Wraith's nature against him. If that Wraith hadn't felt the need to "punish" Carson's defiance, he would still be alive. Besides, how stupid was he to not consider that the doctor working with survivors of the plague might have it. Oops.

                        Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                        Oh, lemme see. ALL of the humans could have hidden in the caves (seems the Wraith are clueless about caves), while Shep and Co. lured the Wraith away from the gate. Many ways they could have done this...including making it appear that the villagers had travelled to point A...say, by setting up a fake campsite...so that while some went to investigate, the Lanteans could have taken out those at the gate and evacuated the humans. That is just one simple option.

                        There were options for everyone here, except - maybe - the Wraith...seeing as they still have that pesky need to feed thing going on.


                        das
                        The problem was the number of Wraith. It's why the original plan was scrapped. They couldn't kill/lure enough Wraith away to make an escape.

                        Keep in mind why the Wraith came to the planet to begin with. They were the instigators. They wanted to experiment on the Balarians (at least that's why I assume they were going to take them to their "new home" on the hive. The humans weren't seeking a fight this day. They just finished it.
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                          #13
                          Your just grabbing at straws now.

                          Carson did what was best. He killed wraith (since when has this become a morally bad thing to do???) and saved a large group of people, around 700.

                          And your far to near sighted. Yes, for this particular episode the humans win the body count, about a dozen to the wraith's single kill, but this episode was only around 24 hours in PG. What about the weeks afterward? if carson had developed the testing program properly, the wraith would have killed tens of thousands.

                          you forget to mention this little fact in your original argument.

                          Long term, they did what was best.
                          Spoiler:

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                            #14
                            all those wraith human comparisons are stupid
                            there is no such thing as universal morals or ethics
                            murdering your own kind is only immoral by human standards.
                            you can't make that judgment for other races. there are many species who kill their own kind merely in competition for anything from food to mates.

                            to humans the wraith are an enemy, and humans are their prey, if you don't kill them they'll kill you. it's us or them, nothing wrong with killing every last wraith in the galaxy.

                            to wraith the humans are food or threat, just like we'd kill a fish for food or murder a bear to survive. killing humans is wraith nature.

                            and Carson using his medical knowledge to kill the wraith - why not?
                            medical knowledge is just knowledge there is nothing holy about it.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Heaven View Post
                              all those wraith human comparisons are stupid
                              there is no such thing as universal morals or ethics
                              murdering your own kind is only immoral by human standards.
                              you can't make that judgment for other races. there are many species who kill their own kind merely in competition for anything from food to mates.

                              to humans the wraith are an enemy, and humans are their prey, if you don't kill them they'll kill you. it's us or them, nothing wrong with killing every last wraith in the galaxy.

                              to wraith the humans are food or threat, just like we'd kill a fish for food or murder a bear to survive. killing humans is wraith nature.

                              and Carson using his medical knowledge to kill the wraith - why not?
                              medical knowledge is just knowledge there is nothing holy about it.
                              Some people take issue with Carson actions as doctor take an oath (can't remember the name of it) anyway the oath is to do no harm.

                              Carson Shepherd, the villagers all took decisions that are morally ambiguous and that most of the humans will all have to live with those decisions those human that lived.

                              The Wraith need very quickly an untainted food supply not so sure weather they would even think about the morals of the situation. They have never even had to think about looking for a new supply of food in the past 10,000 years.

                              This is a clash about food, nothing more and nothing less. One the Wraith needs food, the other humans doesn't want to be at the end of the Wraith food chain. But the starting point of this clash is not so pure and simple and the view of it is many shades of moral grey

                              Remember one man's hero is another man's terrorist

                              MCH
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