'Outsiders' (512) General Discussion

[cLa]

I really liked this one. The last two parter with Jackson was great but this one felt like the good ole days where the team were together. Lately it seems like they have been finding any excuse to break up the team.

[Pandora's_Box]

One thing that I don't get is why people are saying that Sheppard killed the villagers. I've seen that in a few people's post and have no idea where they got the impression that Sheppard actually knew that the villagers were in the mine with the wraith... so anyone?

Someone had to have set those charges and the only ones with C4 were the Lanteans. So if they set those charges that means they expected to blow up the Wraith. Well, they had to get the Wraith in there somehow so logic would dictate that Sheppard came up with the plan to use those men to lure the Wraith there.

Speculation, to a point yes. But highly probable.

[bluealien]

The head of the council pretended to be on Jervis's side and let them out so they would lead the Wraith to the cave where the Balarians were. They took the bait of course and were willing to hand over all the innocent Balarians to be killed by the Wraith. It was Sheppards plan so therefore he is being blamed. But if the villagers werent so intent on handing the Balarians over they wouldnt have been killed.
So I didn't really have a lot of sympathy for them considering they had no problem with handing over the innocent villagers to be killed by the Wraith, and did they think the Wraith would really just let them walk away afterwards.

If Shep hadn't of blown them up the Wraith probably would have killed them anyway...

[Pegasus_SGA]

Someone had to have set those charges and the only ones with C4 were the Lanteans. So if they set those charges that means they expected to blow up the Wraith. Well, they had to get the Wraith in there somehow so logic would dictate that Sheppard came up with the plan to use those men to lure the Wraith there.

Speculation, to a point yes. But highly probable.

See I couldn't disagree more. I have no doubt that Sheppard set the charges, but there's nothing at all that we saw would indicate that Sheppard set the villagers up to be killed. If he wanted them dead he could have just blown up the jail or left them to the wraith. We know the wraith had their search parties out anyway, so wouldn't it make sense that the leader let them out of the jail (as we saw) Jarvis took his men to the wraith said to them, that he knew where the outsiders were (as told to him by the village leader) and off they went to the mine. Sheppard and the team from what we saw, did not know that the leader of the village was going to release Jarvis. There was nothing we saw or heard from Sheppard that would suggest he knew about the villagers. When the C4 blew he said that should have stopped the wraith, not the wraith and the villagers. So I still don't believe that Sheppard knew about what the council leader was doing. I can't see Sheppard allowing a collaborator to go back with them to Atlantis, could you?

But how do we know it was Sheppard's plan, Blue? There was nothing in Sheppard's actions, words or reactions that would suggest it was his idea that the Bolarians should be killed along with the Wraith.

[Arica15]

Hmm I really can't see why Shep is getting this much stick.....I mean, he didn't force the villagers to betray anyone, they chose to do so. That it backfired on them is almost beside the point. Yes I know they were only trying to save themselves...but how often is that used as an excuse to simply do nothing. It was a dreadful situation, but their own actions led them into the mine, if they had decided not to go into the mine, i.e. not to betray the others, Shep would have had to have done something else.

Not a good solution, not a nice solution, but Shep couldn't save everyone in the situation they were in, he had to make a choice. And that he was willing to make the hard choices for better or for worse is one of the things that made me love Sheppard way back in Season 1. Nice to see him again.

[JackHarkness_Hot]

It was the scene after he donated the C4 that indicated that Sheppard "suggested" to the village leader to go with the plan, I believe his words are, "Nice work". Therefore, chances are it was Sheppard who came up with the plan.

[stclare]

I realy enjoyed this ep. loved the team and mckay/carson banter. No over the top heaving bussomed women needing to be rescued or flirted with

It was an ep where I actualy came away from watching it questioning what I would do in the 'mine' situation. was shep right? what else could he have done etc.

if I can enjoy an ep for its entertainment value and it also have substance that makes me question the decisions made by the characters and there consequences then its a good ep in my book!

4.5/5 (.5 off just casue I would have liked some convo with woolsey in atantis - i miss the check ins)

[bluealien]

But how do we know it was Sheppard's plan, Blue? There was nothing in Sheppard's actions, words or reactions that would suggest it was his idea that the Bolarians should be killed along with the Wraith.

The plan was for Jervis to lead the Wraith to the cave and once they were all in the cave it was blown up.. so how could Shep not expect Jervis and his men not to be killed along with the Wraith, when the cave was rigged with C4.
I agree that it was the villagers own choice to take the bait.. they didnt have to lead the Wraith there in the first place. They had no problem in sacrificing the Bolarians but instead the tables got turned on them..

[Pegasus_SGA]

The plan was for Jervis to lead the Wraith to the cave and once they were all in the cave it was blown up.. so how could Shep not expect Jervis and his men not to be killed along with the Wraith, when the cave was rigged with C4.
I agree that it was the villagers own choice to take the bait.. they didnt have to lead the Wraith there in the first place. They had no problem in sacrificing the Bolarians but instead the tables got turned on them..

I just watched it again, and I think I can see what people mean, when Sheppard says, 'Nice work'. I can see your point, but what we don't know completely that Shep was aware that the other villagers went into the mines with the Wraith. Yes, I can see it being suggestive now, listening to that bit back again. But I don't know with all the fuss, I expected something bigger. I do prefer it when the morality is slightly skewered, but I didn't think this was anything along the scale of what happened in Miller's crossing. But nice to see a bit of dark Shep resurfacing. Bring it on I say.

And on a completely shallow point Blue, I luffs your sig.

[JackHarkness_Hot]

I think they knew, their look wasn't one of joy the village leader was in angst. Poor man, if Heightmeyer was still alive he will definitely need her services.

[Linda06]

I just watched it again, and I think I can see what people mean, when Sheppard says, 'Nice work'. I can see your point, but what we don't know completely that Shep was aware that the other villagers went into the mines with the Wraith. Yes, I can see it being suggestive now, listening to that bit back again. But I don't know with all the fuss, I expected something bigger. I do prefer it when the morality is slightly skewered, but I didn't think this was anything along the scale of what happened in Miller's crossing. But nice to see a bit of dark Shep resurfacing. Bring it on I say.

And on a completely shallow point Blue, I luffs your sig.

Well TBH I don't think he had a choice...The wraith would have killed them all if they got their hands on them so he had to sacrifice a few to save many..Plus they were gonna betray the others to the wraith so he it was his fault what happened to him and the others!

[GateLadyM]

This was a bit slow for me, but was a good chance to show how much better Carson is as a character than the gawd-awful Keller and her multiple romances (gag). At least we got more Teyla this week. Unfortunately we will get Keller back oh so soon (but I can watch something else then). Teyla will be pushed out of the way to make room for "As the Stargate Turns".

[ladyjanus]

We've known since the first season that Shep has some very dark places in his soul. Isn't that a very real part of why he's so attractive to so many of us?

What caught my attention, and what I haven't really seen addressed in these postings is how far Beckett went into the shade, morally. In the wake of the "Do no harm" spiel he let the Wraith feed on him, spurred him into it, really, knowing that the Wraith would die from it.

Now that, my friends, is what I call character development...

[TheSage]

This time, Sheppard did put the lives of humans on the line.

The humans were not necessarily the most upright types, but they were humans. They had already once shown, that they were not cold-hearted monsters, when they stepped back from killing the Balarians and willingly surrendered their weapons and allowed themselves to be jailed. It was also the village elder who put the idea of letting the Wraith know of the hiding place of the left-over Balarians, and that Jarvis could/should go and let them know. Jarvis also talked about whether the village elder could live with his conscience after doing this.

As Jarvis and Sheppard devised this plan together, where Sheppard's job was to place the explosives and get the Balarians to safety, Sheppard too was responsible for the death of those 5-6 humans.

[Laura Dove]

The humans were not necessarily the most upright types, but they were humans.

So what? It was about time the Atlanteans treat their fellow humans the way they treat other beings. Wraith might be ruthless and often cruel, but at least, they behave consistently whether it's among themselves or with other species.

But the Atlanteans? If you're a wraith or a replicator, your reward for cooperation and good-will is betrayal (death-like fates like being blanked in his mind and body for Michael, or frozen in the vacuum of space for the ascension-seeking replicators), but if you're human, you are forgiven no matter what you did and the level of danger you pose (the Genii, the criminals in "Condemned")?

[Teslan]

So what? It was about time the Atlanteans treat their fellow humans the way they treat other beings. Wraith might be ruthless and often cruel, but at least, they behave consistently whether it's among themselves or with other species.

But the Atlanteans? If you're a wraith or a replicator, your reward for cooperation and good-will is betrayal (death-like fates like being blanked in his mind and body for Michael, or frozen in the vacuum of space for the ascension-seeking replicators), but if you're human, you are forgiven no matter what you did and the level of danger you pose (the Genii, the criminals in "Condemned")?

Do you know that line in the first "Pirates" movie? The one that talks about how its the "dishonest" that one always knows how to treat? It's the same with the Wraith. We know that at the first chance they get, they'll pull one over on us. (The most trusting and trustworthy among them is Todd, and he wasn't exactly caught completely off-guard when he thought they had betrayed him). They do it to each other. Thus, we always know we have to pull the trigger first.

Humans don't always turn out to be a bunch of two-timing lowlifes. Therefore, the team tries to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Teslan]

This time, Sheppard did put the lives of humans on the line.

The humans were not necessarily the most upright types, but they were humans. They had already once shown, that they were not cold-hearted monsters, when they stepped back from killing the Balarians and willingly surrendered their weapons and allowed themselves to be jailed. It was also the village elder who put the idea of letting the Wraith know of the hiding place of the left-over Balarians, and that Jarvis could/should go and let them know. Jarvis also talked about whether the village elder could live with his conscience after doing this.

As Jarvis and Sheppard devised this plan together, where Sheppard's job was to place the explosives and get the Balarians to safety, Sheppard too was responsible for the death of those 5-6 humans.

Those humans made their beds when they agreed to work with the Wraith and hand over their fellow human beings. If you're seen co-operating with the enemy during a time of war, and the bomb goes off it is too bad for you.

[Laura Dove]

Do you know that line in the first "Pirates" movie? The one that talks about how its the "dishonest" that one always knows how to treat? It's the same with the Wraith. We know that at the first chance they get, they'll pull one over on us. (The most trusting and trustworthy among them is Todd, and he wasn't exactly caught completely off-guard when he thought they had betrayed him). They do it to each other. Thus, we always know we have to pull the trigger first.

Is it a crime now to have a brain? No, Todd won't "throw himself at their mercy". Being cooperative doesn't mean he's plain stupid, or he'd already be dead. And if by "pull the trigger first", you mean "wait for two of his cruisers, and the wraith inside them, to be annihilated by Atlantis" (albeit unwillingly), then I agree.

And what about Michael at the end of "No Man's Land"?

[dasNdanger]

Do you know that line in the first "Pirates" movie? The one that talks about how its the "dishonest" that one always knows how to treat? It's the same with the Wraith. We know that at the first chance they get, they'll pull one over on us. (The most trusting and trustworthy among them is Todd, and he wasn't exactly caught completely off-guard when he thought they had betrayed him). They do it to each other. Thus, we always know we have to pull the trigger first.

Humans don't always turn out to be a bunch of two-timing lowlifes. Therefore, the team tries to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Well, since Lanteans are always the ones screwing over the Wraith, then I'd say that 'dishonesty' at least goes both ways. In fact, since the Lanteans alway react first, many Wraith have died who - perhaps - could have proven themselves trustworthy, just like Todd. But we'll never know because they are dead. Even Michael helped Sheppard when he really didn't have to - he could have immediately turned Sheppard over to the Queen to win back her favor, but he helped instead - and was immediately betrayed - AGAIN - by the humans. The Lanteans are a bunch of hypocrites, and this episode sealed it for me. They pretend to be the saints, while they prove themselves no better - or even worse - than the Wraith.

das

[nx01a]

RONON DEX: It's the same guards from the village. I recognise the commander.
That was supposed to be an inside joke, right? Wraith... different?!

The Good:
-Carson kiled another Wraith! His little tirade to the dying Wraith reminded me of Dr. Phlox on Enterprise angrily telling Klingons he had just infected them with a deadly virus and ordering them to let him cure them and others. Once doctors let go of that whole 'do no harm' crap, they seem to get more work done. Perhaps that's why the our Asgard died out.
-When did Carson get this messiah-like complex, walking the way of the poor and downtrodden of Pegasus? At least he's the opposite of other 'main' stars, actually spending long periods of time offworld without hot baths, PlayStation ... deodorant.
-Moral dilemmas galore this episode. Double and triple crosses galore.
-The minute they said 'mining office', I knew there would be an explosion.
-Crystalline technology. I can't remember seeing the Wraith use crystals a la Asgard or Ancients before. Interesting. Their technology's evolving. Good for us, bad for Atlantis.
-Stupid scientist, testing your work on yourself without being forced by an overbearing commander.
-Teyla and John take up shooting stances, Ronon runs straight at the enemy firing.
-Headshots!
-Did Teyla's overhead shooting arc look just like the famous shot of Sam doing the same thing to gliders from the SG-1 credits? It looks alot like it to me.
-And did Ronon and Shep jumping through the gate look just like Daniel and Jack jumping through the gate in 'Torment of Tantalus', also in the SG-1 credits?
-John can dodge Wraith transmat beams!
-Teyla can't!
-Rodney can't fly it, but he sure can manipulate its beaming tech.
-Rodney and Carson were hilarious this episode, from the complaining about Carson's need for MORE supplies to the tongue-in-cheek hive rescues to the weight jokes to my fave:

McKAY: Well, you're gonna have to cover me!

BECKETT: All right.

(He looks around at all the exits.)

BECKETT: From which direction?:carson:

The Bad:
-When did Carson get back to the Pegasus galaxy?
-Again... WHY does anyone go anywhere without a jumper?!?! Even if they're not needed and go back once they've dropped you off, why make Rodney keep whining about long treks from the gate every other episode? Crap, even Michael discovered how handy having a jumper can be.
-Nice purple/pink eyeshadow, Teyla. Matches your purple/pink lipstick perfectly. Just once, I'd like to see a female warrior in the midst of battle look hot and sweaty, like it's actually taxing to fight for one's life. Wait... I got that in Sam vs the Kull warrior. Never mind. I got my one.
-Firing P90s and Ronon's energy gun at darts?! Sigh.
-Gods, another backwater village... Well, almost.
-The villagers were openly allowed by the Wraith to progress to the point of developing flintlocks?! Obviously they were overdue for a culling. And why is it that we've never seen a village simply start killing Wraith with pitchforks, taking their weapons and using them? It seems so easy. Then again, the Wraith don't seem as invulnerable or scary as they did in the first season.

The Questions:
-Have we ever seen the facehugger Wraith soldiers wraith someone?
-Anyone else miss seeing a culling? That level of terror and chaos is what made me understand how dangerous, scary, cold, etc. the Wraith were. I'm not feeling it anymore.

The Verdict:
Enjoyable episode. I'm a bit tired of these stupid situations where the team shows up in a backwater village and ends up in the middle of random Wraith madness. Have a cloaked jumper there at all times and negate this foolishness.