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Very disappointed with Daniel and Rodney's lack of morality

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    #31
    I have not read this entire thread but I am dissapointed that people are trying to link Daniel and Rodney. McKay said that he would activate the device even after they killed Daniel because it would save his, Mckay's life. As is usual in the show McKay has the moral depth of a sociopath. His character is ridiculously self involved and typically incapable of understanding another's pain or emotion. How he became such a fan favorite is beyond me.

    Comparing the Wraith to the Ori is also misleading. The Ori were out to enslave or destroy all humans in the Milky Way. The only way to stop them was to destroy the Ori. The Wraith story line is very very flawed. I tried to bring this up a long time ago but human civilizations can reach into the millions with proper nutrition and a minuscule amount of technology. Hello, Ancient China....

    I guess this is when Radek dies and Shep is seriously hurt. I wonder if Rodney will show any remorse. Its doubtful. He'll probably pity himself instead of trying to make amends.

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      #32
      Originally posted by Phenix View Post
      As is usual in the show McKay has the moral depth of a sociopath. His character is ridiculously self involved and typically incapable of understanding another's pain or emotion. How he became such a fan favorite is beyond me.
      It's a show-biz thing. In real life everyone hates a jerk. In fictional settings (TV, movies), they seem to endear themselves to one. Not logical but often the case.

      And now that I think of it, I kinda like the guy myself.
      My timeline of the Ancients here.

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        #33
        Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
        Then stop claiming humans are "good guys" and "better", more "moral" than wraith, when they just make the same thing: Ensuring their own survival at the expense of any other. Doing what you condemn other for is not being a "good guy", it's being a hypocrite.
        I never anything of the sort, top marks for imagination though.

        And by allowing humans to live without control, you allow for overpopulation and the disruption of ecosystem balance, leading to mass-extinctions of many species. So, as when you're a human, you're also a mammal, an animal and a live being, letting humans procreate without control is immoral.
        Are you serious? That's how nature works, there's no such thing as a stable ecosystem, as it's always in a constant state of flux. Species have been made extinct by others long before man came around, it's nothing new. I suspect though that you were trying to make out is that that's the same logic that I was using, if so, you've completely missed the point. The fact that Wraith live to kill Humans is what makes killing them a moral imperative for Humans, no one else, it's got nothing to do with the way they live per se, it's specifically how their lives affect ours that makes killing them not just acceptable, but crucial.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Myles View Post
          'Good Guys' and 'moral high ground' are completely subjective terms. Both sides on a war consider the other side 'bad guys' and their side 'good guys'. What's moral to one culture is immoral to another, however, from a human point of view, the Expedition is good and moral(for the most part). From a Wraith perspective, they're the bad guys and committing genocide. It all depends on which side you look at it from.
          Your point about the relativity of good and evil is very true. However, when you do what you condemn others for, i.e., when you commit what you, yourself, call a bad action, there is just no way you can be called "good guys" from any point of view. Either you believe that a truce has value or not, but you can't say "it's OK if I break it, but the other party is evil if it does".

          In the greater scheme of things, a population getting out of control is natural. Once it does, it can no longer sustain itself and falls back to a more manageable level. During the process, things are disrupted, but everything is forced back into equilibrium eventually.
          Lack of food is only one of the regulation processes, with, well, predators, an ecological niche wraith are filling in the Pegasus galaxy but which is lacking on real-life Earth. Humans not only destroy what they eat (which would be natural), but also what they don't to make room for more things to eat. Lack of food isn't regulating human population as it should, because mankind only turns to other things to eat and places to grew them, blindly destroying everything in the process.

          The Wraith obviously have a culture and are not mindless killing machines, but when it comes to us VS them, then there's little you can do but fight and beat them. And who's to say what would happen if all the Wraith could live without feeding. As Todd put it so well in 'First Contact', the lifestyle of feeding on humans is all the Wraith know. What would they be without it?
          Granted, their society has been shaped by the war against the Ancients and by 10,000 years of galactic domination. That doesn't mean they are incapable of anything else, though, it just means it will be hard to adapt, as any colonised culture has a hard time to adapt the way of life imposed by the invader.

          How your actions appear depends on the observer and the circumstances. In a black and white world all things could be called good/evil. However, the circumstances surrounding such actions can greatly change whether something can be considered moral or not.
          Completely. And it especially irks me when fictional characters I like do things that are debatable without a hint of hesitation, and thus, grey-area actions are deemed "all good" because they are done by so-called "good guys".

          I'm sure once a few hives explode that the word will get around to stay out of hyperspace.
          It can take time. Hopefully Todd's hive will be able to warn all members of his alliance. Without explicit warning, only when at least one ship doesn't enter hyperspace can they understand the danger.

          It's been clearly stated the Ancients tried to negotiate with the Wraith and never saw those people again. I presume they were mighty tasty.
          True, but was it before, or after the Ancients tried to "weed them out"?

          Originally posted by pcat View Post
          I am sick of people harping on people who want to win. Wraith are the clear enemy. They do not want to change. If you go to war, you destroy the enemy and there capability to pose a future threat.
          "Americans are the clear enemy. They do not want to convert to Islam. If you go to war, you destroy the enemy and there capability to pose a future threat."
          Sounds vaguely familiar? Not exactly the kind of things I want my TV "heroes" to teach children.

          As for Todd considereing the drug treatment, you may have noticed that he was considering for expendatble (short life) assets. This would leave more for for other more deserving wraith, such as himself. He is interested in managing his food supply and survival, nothing else, as has been shown consistenly.
          Such as when he saved Sheppard's life in "Common Ground" while believing death would be his only reward. */end sarcasm*

          Originally posted by jenks View Post
          I never anything of the sort, top marks for imagination though.
          It's a consistent argument among those who defend the genocide of wraith to call them "evil". But even if you, yourself, consider SGA characters simply selfish and arrogant, you can't deny that they are portrayed as so-called "good guys" in show.

          Are you serious? That's how nature works, there's no such thing as a stable ecosystem, as it's always in a constant state of flux. Species have been made extinct by others long before man came around, it's nothing new. I suspect though that you were trying to make out is that that's the same logic that I was using, if so, you've completely missed the point. The fact that Wraith live to kill Humans is what makes killing them a moral imperative for Humans, no one else, it's got nothing to do with the way they live per se, it's specifically how their lives affect ours that makes killing them not just acceptable, but crucial.
          I'm not only serious but rather informed on the subject. While species replace each other all the time, they do it smoothly, no ecological niche remaining vacant. Humans, on the other hand, have provoked mass-extinctions within a few decades and it's only the beginning.

          As for defending humans against the threat wraith represent, I may be a human, but I'm also a mammal, an animal, an eukaryote and a live being. As such, my duty as a mammal, an animal, an eukaryote and a live being is to protect my fellow mammals, animals, eukaryotes and a live beings against the unacceptable threat, i.e. mankind.
          My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
          Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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            #35
            Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
            "Americans are the clear enemy. They do not want to convert to Islam. If you go to war, you destroy the enemy and there capability to pose a future threat."
            Sounds vaguely familiar? Not exactly the kind of things I want my TV "heroes" to teach children.
            Not quite the same thing as having humans as one's exclusive food source though, is it?

            By your logic, we shouldn't use antibiotics, too. After all, the fact that cholera makes us sick isn't grounds for eradicating it, is it?

            I'm not only serious but rather informed on the subject. While species replace each other all the time, they do it smoothly, no ecological niche remaining vacant.
            An ecological niche isn't something carved in stone which exists independently and which a species comes to "fill". It's what a species creates for itself, a range of conditions within which it can exist and interact with stuff. If you eliminate a species, it doesn't live a "vacant niche". It leaves an unused resource cluster which may potentially be used by a species. And no, not all such resource clusters are in constant use by living species.

            As for defending humans against the threat wraith represent, I may be a human, but I'm also a mammal, an animal, an eukaryote and a live being. As such, my duty as a mammal, an animal, an eukaryote and a live being is to protect my fellow mammals, animals, eukaryotes and a live beings against the unacceptable threat, i.e. mankind.
            I'm not aware of any fellow mammals sharing that peculiar sense of responsibility for the entire biosphere, let alone the perception of themselves as a threat.
            If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

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              #36
              Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
              Such as when he saved Sheppard's life in "Common Ground" while believing death would be his only reward. */end sarcasm*
              Minor point, but that's not exactly what happened. Todd saved Sheppard's life when he still believed there were overwhelming Genii forces guarding the gate (and on the planet in general). He said he did it as a repayment of debt and while that's probably true (in part) he also had no idea Sheppard's people had come to the rescue until after he finished restoring Sheppard's lifeforce so Todd believed that he still needed him to escape. Once Sheppard's people showed up, he said he never truly believed Sheppard would honor their agreement, but he was in a better position with Sheppard on his feet than he was going up against the Genii alone as it would be easier to deal with just Sheppard if he turned on him than it would've been to deal with all the Genii guards by himself. It's a pattern that we see continue with his future appearances - He appears honorable when it serves his needs but he's always out for what he considers to best for him (and his people). Which, for now, means putting an end to the civil war, but once he pulls that off, all bets are off as to what then becomes the focus of his attention.

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                #37
                Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                One thing that really bothered me with this episode is that - when Rodney and Daniel realized how the device worked - they never once questioned the morality of destroying the Wraith, even as Todd was working with Keller to try to save his kind from the necessity of such a destruction.

                In contrast, Todd had a moral conflict with what he was doing, questioning whether it was the correct course for his kind, realizing that many (or most) Wraith may balk at doing something that is of benefit to humans. At least Todd saw the moral issue, and how it would affect Wraith, and - in turn - humans. But Daniel and Rodney never questioned the destruction of the Wraith. For this, I have lost much respect for both (although I really don't know Daniel, so this is my first exposure to him).

                Instead of considering the extinction of an ENTIRE species, they are only concerned about saving their own lives (McKay, specifically). One life, maybe two, at the forfeit of an entire species.

                Where is the morality in that? Where is the morality in humans as they are portrayed in SGA? I've heard more protest on their part over the fate of Fran - a FREAKIN' MACHINE - than what is to become of an entire race of living, breathing beings.

                And before you start with the 'but the Wraith eat people', just remember that the Wraith never want the extinction of the human race...instead, they want and need to coexist with humans. However, the humans don't even want to try to save the Wraith unless it's to their (human) benefit, as Shep & Co. keep reminding Todd, "We're NOT doing this for YOU, we're doing it for US." (Todd, on the other hand, often points out that his ideas are for the benefit of both human and Wraith alike.)

                Moments like this just make me dislike the human characters even more. Not one twinge of conscience over killing an entire species, even as they work with that species in an 'attempt' to save them. Meanwhile, Todd's back on the Daedalus, struggling with issues that the therapy will raise.

                In this light, I DO believe Todd was betrayed. Not by purposeful action, but by sheer ignorance on the part of Rodney and Daniel, who would rather save their own necks while aiding a new, unknown enemy in the destruction of an entire species (or, at the very least, a current ally) that is making an attempt to find peaceful coexistence. Todd was absolutely right...it WAS a betrayal. Shame on Jackson and McKay for lacking the moral fiber to just say 'no'.

                das


                please, if you had been fighting an enemy for 5 years and was presented with the possibility of destroying them once and for all would you pass that oppertunity up on the slight chance thatthey wouldnt have to kill humans anymore. and also let me remind you that michael did not have to feed anymore and what did he do, used the humans for his own purposes and the same would proboly happen with the wraith. what, do you think that just because they dont need us as a food source any more means theyll just sit quietly onboard their hives. no they will proboly enslave the human race to do their bidding.

                oh, and heres a question, lets assume the wraith no longer need to feed on humans anymore. that dont mean they wont need to feed at all. they will have to eat regular food and where do you think they are gonna get it? land on a planet walk into town and trade for some crops? or do you think thell find a nice planet and work an honest days labor planting crops and harvesting them? no their gonna enslave the humans of this galaxy and force them to provide them with food. or they will merely swoop down in their darts and instead of taking humans, they take their crops and animals, thus killing the humans through starvation or make their lives miserable because they wont ever have eneough food.


                it dosent matter that keller was working on a retro virus that would enable the wraith not to have to feed on humans anymore because in the end, they will either continue to be wraith because her thing doesent work or the wraith dont want to give up their abilities for the sake of the humans, or they would turn into exactly what the goauld used to be and force the humans to give them food and maybe even try the whole 'god" thing but in the end, they will all have to die. so why not take advantage of a golden oppertunity to get rid of our biggest problem once and for all?
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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Lahela View Post
                  But on the other hand, we all act for our own self-preservation, even at the expense of others. I'm not saying it's right, but it's human nature and I'm pretty sure wraith nature as well.
                  Very true. I know from those i have worked with, many would sacrifice others to save their own butt. But on the flip side we see all the time others dying willingly to save more... like people tossing themselves on grenades to save their comrades.

                  For their own survival yes, but one never thinks altruistically when one's life is on the line.
                  What of fire fighters who willingly go into burning buildings to pull others out when many of them have died as a result?

                  Who makes the choice which life is of more value? If man makes that choice, doesn't that set him up as God, determining who should live, and who should die?
                  Good point. People also use that point to bemone the ancients not interfereing in our affairs, but morgan said it best. We are no more qualified to be gods than the ori.

                  Also, the argument of that 'we' determine who has the right to live or die is what gets us into wars...and worse, genocides. Right here on earth - human wiping out human in the name of 'self'. Just because we decide who lives and who dies doesn't make it right.
                  Yup. That 'feeling' that we are superior, or have more of a right to XYZ' is one of the imo 3 major causes for wars here..

                  'Good Guys' and 'moral high ground' are completely subjective terms. Both sides on a war consider the other side 'bad guys' and their side 'good guys'. What's moral to one culture is immoral to another, however, from a human point of view, the Expedition is good and moral(for the most part). From a Wraith perspective, they're the bad guys and committing genocide. It all depends on which side you look at it from.
                  Unfortuantly he has a point here. History has shown us that the winning side writes what they did as right and just... BUT since we the viewers are also human, our perspective shows (as threads like this prove) that we are NOT in agreement with the lack of moral fiber the expidition shows.

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                    #39
                    I agree with Jenks in the long run.
                    I was not dissapointed, merely it is natural tendency to think of your own species, and your own self first. Above others. Especially when those others are trying to feed on you. Now, they knew it would not kill all Wraith though. Just the ones that used hyperdrive. Some would have survived, for a short while any way.
                    Jackson, and McKay were only trying to buy time. Keep them selves alive, and then worry about things later on.

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                      #40
                      Hi guys,
                      Did anyone else notice that the Wraith haven't upgraded their hyperdrive systems in 10,000 years? Given the way technology advances on Earth, this seems a little strange. And yes, I still love Todd to death, even with the 9,966 year age gap
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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Todds worshipper View Post
                        Hi guys,
                        Did anyone else notice that the Wraith haven't upgraded their hyperdrive systems in 10,000 years? Given the way technology advances on Earth, this seems a little strange. And yes, I still love Todd to death, even with the 9,966 year age gap

                        Yeah, I'm hoping they fix that - but perhaps they saw no need for it before, since their system allowed them to stop and feed along the way, like a big buffet line. "Do you want gravy on your Satedans? And how about a side of Athosians with that?"

                        das
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                          #42
                          Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                          Minor point, but that's not exactly what happened. Todd saved Sheppard's life when he still believed there were overwhelming Genii forces guarding the gate (and on the planet in general). He said he did it as a repayment of debt and while that's probably true (in part) he also had no idea Sheppard's people had come to the rescue until after he finished restoring Sheppard's lifeforce so Todd believed that he still needed him to escape. Once Sheppard's people showed up, he said he never truly believed Sheppard would honor their agreement, but he was in a better position with Sheppard on his feet than he was going up against the Genii alone as it would be easier to deal with just Sheppard if he turned on him than it would've been to deal with all the Genii guards by himself. It's a pattern that we see continue with his future appearances - He appears honorable when it serves his needs but he's always out for what he considers to best for him (and his people). Which, for now, means putting an end to the civil war, but once he pulls that off, all bets are off as to what then becomes the focus of his attention.
                          It didn't seem too hard for Todd to overcome the remaining Genii and/or Sheppard's friends (or rather to believe he could overcome Sheppard's friends, because he didn't know anything about the Atlanteans at the time). After all, he was able to get rid of 6 Genii by himself, first 4 at a time and then 2 others. He was very well-fed, so his regeneration abilities were on top. He might have been able to kill all 10 Genii guarding the gate, or at worst, to hide until they would need to sleep. Kolya didn't have that many men with him, although he had more than the "half a dozen" Sheppard said.

                          Also, as you quote the "all bets are of" line, note how it was Todd who asked the question (twice!), and Sheppard who didn't want to make promises. Todd is intelligent enough to understand he can't expect much sympathy from the Atlanteans, and now he uses them for his own interest, but in "Common Ground", he clearly displayed true altruism.

                          Originally posted by stargater1990 View Post
                          please, if you had been fighting an enemy for 5 years and was presented with the possibility of destroying them once and for all would you pass that oppertunity up on the slight chance thatthey wouldnt have to kill humans anymore.
                          So with your own logic, Todd should have attacked and destroyed Atlantis long ago. Or perhaps he has what humans don't know the meaning of: Ethics and a sense of honour.

                          and also let me remind you that michael did not have to feed anymore and what did he do, used the humans for his own purposes and the same would proboly happen with the wraith.
                          After he was betrayed, lied to, experimented on, raped in his body and mind. And what was his crime? To HELP them, to save Sheppard and help in stopping the hives! You're quick to forget that he was driven crazy by TORTURE, torture inflicted to him by your "heroes".

                          what, do you think that just because they dont need us as a food source any more means theyll just sit quietly onboard their hives. no they will proboly enslave the human race to do their bidding.
                          And just because wraith stop feeding on humans, do you think humans will stop wanting to kill them out of revenge and spite? When it's safe for wraith to let humans live and develop technology, they can do that, but before, they'll defend the right of their species to live.

                          oh, and heres a question, lets assume the wraith no longer need to feed on humans anymore. that dont mean they wont need to feed at all. they will have to eat regular food and where do you think they are gonna get it? land on a planet walk into town and trade for some crops? or do you think thell find a nice planet and work an honest days labor planting crops and harvesting them? no their gonna enslave the humans of this galaxy and force them to provide them with food. or they will merely swoop down in their darts and instead of taking humans, they take their crops and animals, thus killing the humans through starvation or make their lives miserable because they wont ever have eneough food.
                          They grow their ships and technology, you think they can't invent a way to grow food on board?

                          it dosent matter that keller was working on a retro virus that would enable the wraith not to have to feed on humans anymore because in the end, they will either continue to be wraith because her thing doesent work or the wraith dont want to give up their abilities for the sake of the humans, or they would turn into exactly what the goauld used to be and force the humans to give them food and maybe even try the whole 'god" thing but in the end, they will all have to die. so why not take advantage of a golden oppertunity to get rid of our biggest problem once and for all?
                          Guilty until proven innocent.

                          I sure would love to see your own logics applied to yourself, and how much you stick with it when you're on the bad side of the condemnation.
                          My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
                          Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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