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I see John's "Only my friends matter"-mentality is still alive and well...

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    I see John's "Only my friends matter"-mentality is still alive and well...

    Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

    Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".




    #2
    Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
    Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

    Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".
    Well yes. Of course anyone would fight more for a friend than for someone they didn't know. And? Isn't that human nature? Surely we'd all put ourselves on the line for a friend more readily than for someone we didn't know?

    I think Sheppard was correct in pointing out to Teyla the danger of the mission. It WAS very risky, and she's a new mother and a valued member of his team. If he'd said 'Ok, love, off you go' I'd have thought him an uncaring and callous person, who wasn't being a good friend and team leader to Teyla.
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      #3
      The point is not that he's just willing to go that extra mile for his friends. He's ready to sacrifice the lives of millions for the lives of his friends. And that's not OK.



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        #4
        Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
        The point is not that he's just willing to go that extra mile for his friends. He's ready to sacrifice the lives of millions for the lives of his friends. And that's not OK.
        How so?

        Edit: I mean how was he ready to sacrifice the lives of millions in this episode? He questioned Teyla as to whether she should be doing this. There was no guarantee any of the plan would work at all, and in fact, in the end, it didn't. All that happened is that Todd got rid of a powerful queen and is now in command of a strong wraith alliance. Maybe the wraith treatment Keller has will work, and will be used in the future, but who knows?
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          #5
          Originally posted by Linzi View Post
          How so?

          Edit: I mean how was he ready to sacrifice the lives of millions in this episode? He questioned Teyla as to whether she should be doing this. There was no guarantee any of the plan would work at all, and in fact, in the end, it didn't. All that happened is that Todd got rid of a powerful queen and is now in command of a strong wraith alliance. Maybe the wraith treatment Keller has will work, and will be used in the future, but who knows?
          This was a huge opportunity. Risk Teyla's life, possibly save the lives of millions. And he was against it immediately from the moment it was revealed that Teyla had to risk her life.

          No thought was given to what she could achieve if the plan succeeded. Suddenly, it was all "Teyla, your life is important!". No second thought to the lives of the rest of the galaxy. That's John's problem. He doesn't think that far.

          Oh, a friend's life is in danger, well, f the galaxy then! Let's try to talk them out of it!

          And seriously, they've pulled off stunts like this countless times in the past, oftentimes with a must smaller chance of success. Like, for instances, this "daring" rescue they pulled in this episode. Seriously, how did they expect to get out of there?

          No info on the hive, no prep time. Just three idiots going in blind against an entire hive. At least with Todd's plan, there was a, you know, plan.

          And the point is that John didn't even consider. He was immediately all about "No, Teyla! Don't do it!". Teyla had to reason with him to get him to accept it. Smart people weigh every option before going "No!" when the future of an entire galaxy is at stake.



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            #6
            Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
            This was a huge opportunity. Risk Teyla's life, possibly save the lives of millions. And he was against it immediately from the moment it was revealed that Teyla had to risk her life.

            No thought was given to what she could achieve if the plan succeeded. Suddenly, it was all "Teyla, your life is important!". No second thought to the lives of the rest of the galaxy. That's John's problem. He doesn't think that far.

            Oh, a friend's life is in danger, well, f the galaxy then! Let's try to talk them out of it!

            And seriously, they've pulled off stunts like this countless times in the past, oftentimes with a must smaller chance of success. Like, for instances, this "daring" rescue they pulled in this episode. Seriously, how did they expect to get out of there?

            No info on the hive, no prep time. Just three idiots going in blind against an entire hive. At least with Todd's plan, there was a, you know, plan.

            And the point is that John didn't even consider. He was immediately all about "No, Teyla! Don't do it!". Teyla had to reason with him to get him to accept it. Smart people weigh every option before going "No!" when the future of an entire galaxy is at stake.
            Having just watched that scene again, where Sheppard expresses his concern to Teyla, the only thing he suggests to her is that this plan can wait - he doesn't say 'You can't do this' or 'don't to this!' anywhere in the scene. He says there's no immediate need to execute the plan, there's time to wait and see what happens with the wraith and their in-fighting. He also just questions her as to whether it's wise, and shows his concern for her safety. So, sorry, I don't quite know how you've come to the conclusion you have. Another of life's great mysteries, FAII, eh?
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              #7
              Originally posted by Linzi View Post
              Having just watched that scene again, where Sheppard expresses his concern to Teyla, the only thing he suggests to her is that this plan can wait - he doesn't say 'You can't do this' or 'don't to this!' anywhere in the scene. He says there's no immediate need to execute the plan, there's time to wait and see what happens with the wraith and their in-fighting. He also just questions her as to whether it's wise, and shows his concern for her safety. So, sorry, I don't quite know how you've come to the conclusion you have. Another of life's great mysteries, FAII, eh?
              Funny, he was trying to talk her straight out of it until he actually said "Why now?". Before that, he was all "Oh, they'll enslave the people instead of feeding on them! Why do it? There's no guarantee it'll solve everything!". That's no "Why now?", that's "Why at all?". Then when Teyla said "Poo poo, I'll do it anyway!", he went all "Why now?".

              And until Todd revealed Teyla would have to risk her life, as Teyla said, John had no objections to the plan. There was no "Why now?". There was no "Oh, but what if they enslave the people of the galaxy?". No, but once Teyla's life was in danger, it was all "Please, don't do it. Or if you're gonna do it, do it later!".



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                #8
                Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                Hey, who cares about Pegasus if you have to risk the life of someone you know, right? I'm so tired of this "Oh noes! It's a friend! Fight to the death!"-mentality. If it's some unknown person, then it's "Meh. We'll try.". If it's a friend, well, that changes everything.

                Isn't he supposed to be a hero. I mean, this is the future of Pegasus we're talking about. And suddenly, because Teyla will be risking her life, John's all "You can't do this!".
                I'm really trying to be nice here FAII.

                So I'm just going to say this, friends/family come first. Always have, always will.
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by rarocks24 View Post
                  I'm really trying to be nice here FAII.

                  So I'm just going to say this, friends/family come first. Always have, always will.
                  Yes, and my opinion is that it is wrong to value the life of one woman over the lives of millions. I'll try to be nice to you, too.

                  If you think that the life of one person or even the lives of a handful of people are worth the lives of millions, then I hope you're never put in a position of power where people's lives depend on your decisions.



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                    #10
                    Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                    And until Todd revealed Teyla would have to risk her life, as Teyla said, John had no objections to the plan. There was no "Why now?". There was no "Oh, but what if they enslave the people of the galaxy?". No, but once Teyla's life was in danger, it was all "Please, don't do it. Or if you're gonna do it, do it later!".
                    Well I think at first they didn't think anyone would have to risk their lives in that plan. They just thought Todd would go and talk to the queen, without any risks to any Atlantis members.

                    I think it's normal that once the risk reveals itself to be greater than they thought, they would rethink the plan and question it. I think it would have been a little bit stupid to have agreed to it straight away, without reconsidering their options.

                    As for the scene with Sheppard, I got the feeling that he didn't want Teyla to feel pressured into doing anything she didn't really want to do, because suddenly that plan personally involved and threatened her. I think it's great Sheppard came and told her: No one's forcing you to do this, we don't have to go through with this plan if you don't want to. I don't think it would've been fair to Teyla otherwise.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                      Yes, and my opinion is that it is wrong to value the life of one woman over the lives of millions. I'll try to be nice to you, too.

                      If you think that the life of one person or even the lives of a handful of people are worth the lives of millions, then I hope you're never put in a position of power where people's lives depend on your decisions.
                      You really have no idea what I was trying to convey, so I'll be a little more blunt about it.

                      Teyla is a friend, and serves on his team. Furthermore, she was being asked to go on what is called a suicide mission. The probability of the operation working was so low he had the right to not support it.

                      There's a difference between trying to save lives and fanaticism.
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                      The reason you should vote Republican in 2010.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                        The point is not that he's just willing to go that extra mile for his friends. He's ready to sacrifice the lives of millions for the lives of his friends. And that's not OK.
                        How do you mean? You mean it's not OK to think like that in general, or his character shouldn't be written to think like that?

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ethell View Post
                          I think it's normal that once the risk reveals itself to be greater than they thought, they would rethink the plan and question it. I think it would have been a little bit stupid to have agreed to it straight away, without reconsidering their options.
                          What John was doing was deliberately try to talk Teyla out of it without considering anything 'til Teyla said that her decision had been made.

                          Originally posted by jenks View Post
                          How do you mean? You mean it's not OK to think like that in general, or his character shouldn't be written to think like that?
                          I don't think it's OK to risk or sacrifice the lives of millions for one single or a few lives. That's selfish and morally questionable.

                          Originally posted by rarocks24 View Post
                          Teyla is a friend, and serves on his team. Furthermore, she was being asked to go on what is called a suicide mission. The probability of the operation working was so low he had the right to not support it.
                          It's only a suicide mission if the mission itself involves certain death. Otherwise, it's just a very risky mission.

                          And who says the probability was very low? As long as Teyla was able to play her role convincingly, she wouldn't die. There was no guarantee the queen would agree, but the risk of dying wasn't really that great... unless Teyla screwed up.

                          Also, they've gone on missions with even smaller chances of survival (way, way, way smaller chances) to save but the lives of one or a few people. With this mission, they could be saving the lives of millions.



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                            #14
                            Of Course John would want to protect his Friends and the People on the Atlantis base more than some Random people on a planet you have not even met. Thats just Human Nature. It would make more sense to care about the safety of a close friend and loved one over a stranger. It sounds cruel, but its a fact. I see nothing wrong with have Sheppard was saying.

                            It was not like if he Saved Teyla, suddenly millions of people from Pegasus would all get killed. Also Its Johns main job to think about the protection of Atlantis, its people and Earth first in any situation.
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                              #15
                              Here's another one for you:

                              Mission goes poorly, Teyla is compromised.

                              Suddenly Atlantis is in pretty signifigant danger once again from the Wraith. They already made one close pass at Earth last year, they know we're still around...do we really want to incite them further?

                              You're risking millions in the Pegasus if Teyla doesn't go, but you are directly risking even more on Earth if she does. I can't imagine how that plan ever got Woolsey's and the IOA's approval. It was basically walking Teyla into a Wraith hive and asking for her to be captured.
                              -Nuff Said

                              "We should let people do anything they want. We haven't tried that in a while. Maybe it'll work this time."

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