Before I Sleep (115)

[Athenaktt]

Ahhh... a surprisingly moving episode ... which reminds me once again of comments that I've heard in the past about the importance of good casting. Wonderful interaction between cast members. Loved the Back to the Future references too.

Will we see Janus again? I wonder...

"moving episode!" that was the word i was looking for! I really need to get some sleep.

[KayMan2k]

Now back to the actual name of the Ancients. Didn't the Wraith from "The Defiant One" call them something different? It was close to Ancient, but different enough to maybe be their original name. Also, do the Ancients speak English? Since Weir could speak with the Ancients without translation.

He called them Atlanteans. Wier has called them both Atlanteans and Ancients. The 'Ancients' have not called themselves anything, but have denied that they call themselves Ancients.

[AsgardCarnage]

yeah i gotta say in only 15 eps they have really developed the charictors well. i always love the banter mostly the pop cultual refrences makes it seem so much real, because me an my friends talk the same way alot of the time. gotta love whole convosations spoken entirly in simpson,futurama, seinfeld and a whole bunch of movie quotes

[lordvader]

Just thinking ...
According to "Window of Opportunity", the Ancients tried, but failed at time travel.
Here, they clearly succeeded. So the question would be, which "ancients" attempted time travel in Window? I'm guessing that it was the million year plus ancients (or at least the ones who didn't return to pegasus), as they had the plague, and there didn't seem to be a council stopping the research ...

[AsgardCarnage]

my guess is thats how they know time travel is no good and should not be messed with because of the past fauliure with the WoO time machine.

the window of opertunity time machine was diffrent it was trying to create a bubble in space made up of more then 15 stargates and taking them and the space between them out of the normal flow of time, they just couldn't get it to work it just made a loop instead being able to change anything.

[Mr. Seven]

I loved this episode. Everything has come full circle and the writers came up with a neat way for the team to locate ZPM's.

I'm psyched for the closing episodes of this season!

I wonder how SG1 will be..and if they will mention Atlantis at all..

[alaskannut]

We also learn that the Ancients may have left schematics for their Warships in the Ancient database,

sonuvagun! daddy likey!!!

[Harlan]

OK ! I really enjoyed the episode !
It was outstanding, and quite captivating !

As usual, I've some questions ...

1 - When Shep, Weir and Zelenka turned on the 'Time Jumper', they travelled in time. Ok ... but they also travelled from a place to another ... the ship travelled from the Altlantis Hangar (Present Time) to the planet orbit (10 000 in the past) ... so how could the ship travel from a location to another without flying ? Is there a special device on the Time Jumper which allows you to choose the time you want to go, and also the location you want to reach ???

2 - Why did Weir become older while she was frozen ? I mean ... when entering in the stasis chamber, she was 'normal', and after 10 000 years in the chamber, she became older ? Why ?
Remember the ancient woman (Ayiana in the episode 'Frozen', SG-1 S6) ! She spent millions and millions of years frozen, without becoming older !!!

Oh ! I forgot to congratulate Torri Higginson for her amazing way
to play the old Weir ... she's really a good actress.
And that's good to finally see a 'Weir-focused' episode !
This is such a good character !

[Wass]

2 - Why did Weir become older while she was frozen ? I mean ... when entering in the stasis chamber, she was 'normal', and after 10 000 years in the chamber, she became older ? Why ?
Remember the ancient woman (Ayiana in the episode 'Frozen', SG-1 S6) ! She spent millions and millions of years frozen, without becoming older !!!

To answer your question weir is human and not ancient therefore her body aged faster also stasis chamber slows the aging process but does not keep you young for ever I thought for a 10, 000 year old women she did looked ok.

[Harlan]

To answer your question weir is human and not ancient therefore her body aged faster also stasis chamber slows the aging process but does not keep you young for ever I thought for a 10, 000 year old women she did looked ok.

Indeed, that's a good point !
And what about the Time Jumper ?

[gamebeavis]

I havent had a chance to read the entire thread yet so forgive me if this has been mentioned. But I would like to throw my 2 cents into the hat.

1. I keep reading arguments about where the wraith came from and how they fit into the "grand ancient timeline". But we seem to have forgoten something. 5 MILLION years is a LONG TIME. The ancients showed up in pegasus 5 MILLION years ago, alot and I mean ALOT could have taken place in that time. The ancients themselves may not even remember how the wraith came about. Also, the wraith could have evolved alot in that time, meaning they may have not always been life sucking demons, for example Humans didnt always eat cows, but now its one of the major things we eat (well atleast here in america), we simply ate them because they were there, they were plentiful, and they were easy to catch.
Do we know if the wraith existed before the ancients arrived, NO.
Do we know what they ate before humans, NO.
Just remember, its fun to speculate, but the powers that be will let us know when they get around to it.

2. As for the "Time loop" device found in Window of Opportunity (my FAV episode EVER), I seem to remember Daniel stating that the writting on the stones where in one of the OLDEST dialects of Ancient. So you have to ask yourself, why build a machine 10,000 years ago (when they came back from pegasus, presumable to outwit the plague), and write its history down in the oldest language you have? That would be like us building the space station, and then documenting it in Sanskrit.

Also, I theorize it takes a LOT of power to punch a hole in time, thus they probably would have required a ZPM to do anything? But I am not sure on that one. But since they were only able to create a "minor" jump in the past by linking a dozen stargates togeather and drawing on the power from them, I think you could probly jump further with more power. Thus why didnt they just plug in a ZPM if they existed at this time? Or maybe just maybe, ZPMs didnt exist yet? Possibly that machine was built LONG before atlantis?? Im more than likely wrong though.

One more thing, it is VERY possible the PTB dont even know the timeline. Isnt that what makes SCI FI great, you have the ability to create something so compelling, that then later on figure out how to "rewrite" the history to how it fits into place.

[gamebeavis]

I have 2 theories on why the "Time jumper" not only changed time but position in space.

1. The puddle jumper had a fail safe protocol not to emerge in solid matter, if you think about where the puddle jumper was when it left, it would have caused MAJOR problems had it not moved. The time jumper was in the jumper bay when the major jumped, now the jumper was left there by the ancients 10,000 years ago, meaning it was in the exact spot the jumper left from, thus the 2 time jumpers would have been in the SAME SPOT at the same time, I see some slight problems with that done you? Emerging in the vacuum of space seems like a good fail safe to me.
2. The planet is MOVING, it is rotating around a sun, just like ours is, as well as the sun/galaxy is moving. Thus even on the present earth, if you went back in time by just 6 months, but never changed your actual "location" in space, you would emerge in the vacuum of space, because earth would be on the other side of the sun by then, not to mention the entire solar system and galaxy would have moved slightly in that time. So the fact that the time jumper emerged anywere NEAR the planet atlantis is on after 10,000 years, is amazing in itself.

[Wass]

Good point like the idea gamebeavis

[OfF3nSiV3]

I don't understand one thing
when will weir go back in time?
time is linear, we saw weir go back in time when atlantis flooded, so no matter what weir would do in the past, the same future would happen. no matter what u see in movies, future can't be changed, if it happened it's because something caused and everything is done in past is gonna lead to that cause
in the present weir, atlantis didn't flooded so future was manipulated which would be an impossibility
and how will weir find the timeship if janus took the plans with him to earth? meaning the constructed timeship would be on earth, not on atlantis
and why didn't they fled in atlantis? it's a ship with unpenetrable shield, meaning a gun itself..just speed up and ram into any enemy ship

[Harlan]

gamebeavis, your theory on the fail safe for the Time Jumper is quite good !
I totally agree with you on this point .

2. As for the "Time loop" device found in Window of Opportunity (my FAV episode EVER), I seem to remember Daniel stating that the writting on the stones where in one of the OLDEST dialects of Ancient. So you have to ask yourself, why build a machine 10,000 years ago (when they came back from pegasus, presumable to outwit the plague), and write its history down in the oldest language you have? That would be like us building the space station, and then documenting it in Sanskrit.

In my opinion, I assume there's no problem, because I really think the P4X-639 time machine was built BEFORE the Ancients went to Atlantis. Why ? Because in 'Rising' we learn that the Ancient originally left our galaxy because of the plague ... and in your statement, you say they suffered the plague after returning from Atlantis ... but that's wrong ! It's only because of the plague that they went to Atlantis .

According to the episode 'Fallen' (SG-1 S7), the Ancients were building a lot of things when they first suffered from the plague ... Jonas explains they were building a powerful town called Vis Uban ... but they didn't finished it because they had to flee to Atlantis. And I assume this is the same thing with the P4X-639 time machine. They were improving it in order to escape to return in the past to stop the plague ... but the plague probably became too big an dangerous and they had to flee, leaving all their experiments on P4X-639. That's my theory !

And if my theory is right, the 'space station before the sanskrit' problem may me fixed, no ?

[ShadowMaat]

There are a lot of different theories regarding time. The basic premise is:

Team reaches Atlantis.
Power doesn't come on automatically.
Team is killed.
Weir, Shep and Zelenka survive and board timeship.
Timeship jumps back 10,000 years.
Timeship is under attack.
Weir, Shep and Zelenka are in a ship they don't understand, under attack by people they don't understand, in a time/place that is uncertain.
Ship is destroyed before anyone can figure things out.
Weir is rescued by Janus.
Janus makes adjustments to city.
Weir begins her 10,000 year journey.
Team reaches Atlantis.
Power comes on automatically.

You have TWO timelines, now. One where the team reached Atlantis and died and one where they lived. The "they lived" timeline is the one we're following. The events in the other timeline are are still solid- Weir DID go back and change things. just because things are changed in "our" timeline doesn't change what happened in the "other" timeline.

It's a paradox, but it's a workable one if you accept the theory of a multiverse/divergent timelines.

[ColdZero]

It is never stated in Rising that they left because of the plague. Daniel says they don't know why they left, but that we knew that they were suffering from a plague. While that implies that the reason they left was because of the plague it doesn't state it. Obviously this time ship is from after "Window of Opportunity". If they had mastered time travel with this puddle jumper, why create the gate one? Also the ancient guy seemed pretty pissed at causality, kinda like something had gone wrong in the past and it was taboo.

One thing they didn't explain, and maybe this has already been discussed, I haven't read the 6 pages of posts, but when was the recording made to explain the wraith? Why did the Ancients leave a recording to explain everything if the people returning would have been themselves?

Also, with Janus, why give them the locations of just 5 ZPMs, sure thats a lot of them, but...why not explain how to make them? The ancients must have been able to do it if they put one at every outpost and 3 at Atlantis.

[Wass]

Great episode for those who wanted to learn more about the ancients. Also great character development for Dr Weir just goes to show how good of an actress Torri is when playing the old weir and the present weir. Mckay and Shapperd were brilliant in there interaction and very funny.


What we have learnt (some questions answered others left unanswered)

The spoilers are mostly quotes from this epsiode

Spoiler:

Mckay: “That’s what I was afraid of freezer burn”

Mckay to Shapperd: “hah the bitter taste of ultimate failer”
Shapperd: “..if you had just figured out how to fix the damn shield in the first place non of us would have died ”

1 The Ancient council and Ascension – We finally meet the political council that governed the ancients they seemed to be pretty conservative in there view it would explain why the ascended ancient are forbidden from interfering in human development. The same council most exist where ever the ascended ancients are living now. Also there seems to be no evidence the ancient had ascended so IMO the research found in Atlantis by SGA must have carried on earth where they finally found the way to ascend and then all the ancients ascended.

2 The Enemy - A lot of people suggested there was another enemy after watching “Hot Zone” that is still possible but maybe it was the plague that was killing them in MW. Also the ancient referred to the enemy they were fighting as the wraith so the there were no other enemy involved that we know of. Finally the idea that the wraith were an experiment done by the ancients that went wrong is put to rest because there are no suggestion of that nor are there any suggestion that the wraith are the furlings

Spoiler:

Maros (Hologram Lady): “….by directly encountering the wraith……..”
Old Weir: “They told me a being called the wraith vicious, formidable enemy who’s power and technology rivalled there own….”

3 The War – Finally as suggested by many people they lost the war because they were outnumbered by the wraith. Also it puts an end to the arguments that the wraith were technologically as advanced as the ancients. The wraith warship one-on-one with ancient warship would lose as referred to in the episode but they hunted in groups like wolves do. They worked together to defeat the ancients, the wraith were just below technologically from the ancients but they were more war like and ancients were more peaceful. This is best explained when the ancient said they sent a delegation with warships to negotiate some sort of truce but it resulted in a great battle which they probably lost and it goes to show how naive the ancients were from the treat they faced.

Spoiler:

Old Weir: “The Atlantians sent there delegation protected by there most powerful ships in feint hope of negotiating truce, one on one the Atlantian ships were more powerful but the wraith were so many”

4 Time Machine – What we learn is that ancient managed to master time technology, towards the end of the episode we see Janus taking his research back to earth

Spoiler:

which may explain the time machine SG-1 find in “It’s good to king”.

Spoiler:

Old weir: “What’s all that”
Janus: “My research”
Old weir: “Your going to build another time machine”
Janus: “Doubt I will succeed seeing that the council will be watching my every move”
Old weir: “I’m sure you will find a way.”

5 Ancient Repository Knowledge – I always wondered why the ancients would create such device now I have theory what if it was Janus who created the in order to help the humans of future develop ancient tech/weapons from the knowledge to fight the wraith. Also Janus seemed to be rebel who never did what the council ordered him to do.

6 Weapons – We did not see any weapons on Atlantis but they did mention warships which would put to rest a lot of theories by people who said the ancients never had warships or they had small weapons platforms. Although I think they developed weapons but never mass produced them or build massive fleet of warship probably because they never needed to before.

7 The Plague – Now this was never mentioned in the episode but IMO the plague must have occurred before they came to Pegasus and reason is if species as advanced as the ancients who had this great empire surly they must have had big populations as the empire grows so does the population now it seems the were outnumbered in the war with wraith which suggest that the ancient were in small numbers and lot of them died in MW from the plague those who survived came to Pegasus.

Feel free add your opinions if you agree or disagree with what I have written, this is jus my opinion and based of facts from the episode as well as some assumptions.

P.S. – This is probably the longest post I have ever written usually I tend to keep the post brief but I thought why not post what I have learn from this episode.

[PlaZ]

4 Time Machine – What we learn is that ancient managed to master time technology, towards the end of the episode we see Janus taking his research back to earth

Spoiler:

which may explain the time machine SG-1 find in “It’s good to king

”.

Dude!

you are spoiling it for us/me

[ShadowMaat]

PLEASE, guys, spoiler warnings are needed for UPCOMING EPS!!! Those tags were amde for a reason, and they're very easy to use. [ spoiler] and [ /spoiler]

Please, please, please will those of you (there's more than one) talking about upcoming eps and especially stuff about SG-1 PLEASE remember to use spoiler warnings. Thanks.