Weir's Lacking Leadership Quality

[John&Teylaalltheway]

Am I alone is thinking Weir's not believable as a Leader and would look better playing a supporting character ?
Is she capable of making any decsion where she doesn't ask Shepherd or McKay because except for the premiere episode she hasn't managed doing anything concrete unless it was after speaking to Shepherd or McKay ..
My qestion is she a mouse or moron ?

Pam

[aschen]

Actually, I feel that Weir is akin to the roll of General Hammond. The main characters are really Sheppard, McKay, Teyla and Ford. The show is centered around them, no?

Weir = Hammond
Beckett = Frasier
Sheppard = O'Neill
Teyla = Teal'c
McKay = Carter

With Ford, of course, not really being related to anyone before him. The closest comparison I can think of is an military version of Daniel, but without the archeology. If you watch "Childhood's End," you might understand what I mean a little more.

[Lord Zedd]

yeah I agree with you are saying Aschen.And Weir is a good leader of the Atlantis base.Remember the guy with the ponytail and glasses.A geek.He was so rude against Weir and she showed him who is in command.I think it was in the episode where the puddlejumper got stuck in the gate.She is and she has to make the hardest decissions.

[Major Fischer]

Sheppard is the show's lead, he's the first in the credits.

It is my belief that in the very early episodes, including the 38 Minutes scene _Anubis referenced, the writers did a huge disservice to the character. They didn't know how to write her, in much the same way they didn't know how to write Sam in early episodes of SG1. The sort of angry prove myself by yelling and insulting thing gives great one liners but doens't help the character.

Both Hide and Seek and 38 Minutes had these problems. Suspicion is a bit problematic, but here is why I think not so much so. When the Athosians were being accused she looked every one of them in the face, when they all knew that they were being interrogated. A truely bad leader would have just let Bates do his job and not taken personal responsiblity for that.

I think in Poisoning the Well and Underground Weir also learned that she really can't sit back on the base and deligate everything. That she has to be involved because some things aren't Major Sheppard's best aspects and handing them to him harms the expedition.

Is Weir a natural leader? No. But in the later episodes of Atlantis, especially Home she begins to show that she is learning and growing as a leader. That, IMO, is much more interesting to watch than instant leader.

[Major Clanger]

yeah I agree with you are saying Aschen.And Weir is a good leader of the Atlantis base.Remember the guy with the ponytail and glasses.A geek.He was so rude against Weir and she showed him who is in command.I think it was in the episode where the puddlejumper got stuck in the gate.She is and she has to make the hardest decissions.

Sure she's in command, and she does make the hardest decisions. But I will not cut her any slack for the way she handled two of the situations in 38 minutes.

With the scientist (although she was short of time, so I do sort of understand why she did it) she should have taken him to one side and voiced her concern, or handled it better. She's a senior (and supposedly brilliant) diplomat, FCOL.

With Halling (sp?) she also could have been a bit more diplomatic. It would not have hurt to let him (just him, the rest of them would have got in the way) stand in the control room, and speak to Teyla when they got down to one minute and no help in sight.

Without going into too many spoilery details.

And actually, it's her consultation with Shephard that saves her from my Total Wrath. You cannot simply make people follow your orders just because you are "in charge". This goes for the military as well as civilians. Sure, they should follow your orders - as a leader you are in that position because (supposedly) you have the skill and experience to manage people as well as situations. However, there does have to be an element of trust, which goes both ways, and respect.

Ask yourself, if you had two commanders of equal rank- which one would you follow, the one who ranted and raved and belittled you in front of your peers and subordinates, or the calm rational one who only used their authority like a big stick as an absolutely last resort.

I'd follow Jack O'Neill, General Hammond, Teal'c, Colonel Sumner and Major Shephard into the firey pits of hell if they told me to. Weir I'd be likely to shoot in the back if she used that attitude on me.

[aschen]

That was definetely not the response I expected from a mod.

[Lord Zedd]

That was definetely not the response I expected from a mod.

yeah me neither!!! Major Clanger so what if she aint military,we have seen her from just one season.You like General Hammond,so do I,now Jack is in charge I would thrust him too.Major Sheppard has some leader abilities but that needs some work.For Colonel Summer I can't judge on that but I mean we are getting to know Weir.Within time perhaps you could get to know her better.A leader has to make the hardest descisions and I think she is doing so far great! well that is my opinion.I don't mean to be not respectfull towards you Major Clanger

[Major Fischer]

I actually agree with MC, and no one could ever say that I don't like Weir.

Publically ripping into him was not productive, it potentially sews descention, and it doesn't really work with a high level diplomat. But than Briefing Room Sam doens't make much sense for someone who wants to come in and be part of a small unit. IMO, Carter had set herself up to be seperate and appart from the rest of SG1 to start with, and the show sidestepped the implications of that scene.

I think my point is that the writing for the character does get BETTER.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

[QUOTE]

Am I alone is thinking Weir's not believable as a Leader and would look better playing a supporting character ?

Actually, my ideal for a leader is one who consults before giving orders. No leader should presume to know everything about everything. (So if MacKay ever becomes leader, somebody shoot him - please!)

IMO there are far too many such pedants who sit on their BFAs and give impossible orders. They are the bottlenecks and obstacles to order and progress.

In other words, I think Weir does a believable and a good job of leading the Atlantis base. Does she/will she make mistakes? <shrugs> She's a leader, not an omniscient god.

[Lord Zedd]

(So if MacKay ever becomes leader, somebody shoot him - please!)

first: funny I think the Atlantis people their hearts would bleed if he dies second: but killing McKay no such humor about food and wanting to stay alive thrid: still funny

In other words, I think Weir does a believable and a good job of leading the Atlantis base. Does she/will she make mistakes? <shrugs> She's a leader, not an omniscient god.

yeah well said.Everybody makes mistakes!Me,you,Sam,Jack,General Hammond,Mckay,Weir everybody makes mistakes.We are humans and we are not perfect so let Weir be who she is.She is trying to do what is best for everybody on Atlantis and the Pegasus galaxy. She even had to leave Simon to become the leader.

[Major Clanger]

That was definetely not the response I expected from a mod.

Why not? I'm a fan of Atlantis, I may be a mod, but I'm still a member of the board and I am allowed to have an opinion.

(that's why when you see a mod post from me there is no clanger sig)

I don't think I broke any of the posting rules...

[Lord Zedd]

Why not? I'm a fan of Atlantis, I may be a mod, but I'm still a member of the board and I am allowed to have an opinion.

(that's why when you see a mod post from me there is no clanger sig)

I don't think I broke any of the posting rules...

I think what Aschen tried to say was and I agrees with him that we did not think that this about Weir would be your opinion.Of course you have the right of your opinion and we respect that but we didn't espect that you would say you get back in line if Weir had to give you an order.

[Major Clanger]

yeah me neither!!! Major Clanger so what if she aint military,we have seen her from just one season.You like General Hammond,so do I,now Jack is in charge I would thrust him too.Major Sheppard has some leader abilities but that needs some work.For Colonel Summer I can't judge on that but I mean we are getting to know Weir.Within time perhaps you could get to know her better.A leader has to make the hardest descisions and I think she is doing so far great! well that is my opinion.I don't mean to be not respectfull towards you Major Clanger

again, there is no reason why a Mod can't have an opinion that isn't 100% supportive of a character. (you should see some of the things I've posted in the past....)

OK, let's go through your post. I never said I like Hammond did I? (I do, but that's because he's so cuddly) - ok that's not true. He is an excellent leader, he knows when to delegate, and he never ever raises his voice. He knows when to use the velvet glove over the steel fist, and when to take that velvet glove off. And he never makes a snap decision. He weighs the arguments carefully, takes advice when necessary and so on and so on.

That is why he's a General. There is a reason why there are no 25 year old Generals. There are very few 40 year old generals too (I'm guessing that's Weir's age?)

Jack... ah, I have serious issues with Jack as a General. I may go to another thread to discuss that. In fact, I almost certainly will.

Shephard is learning, he's an Air Force Major, and a pilot so he is a little out of the whole command thing (I'd guess, I'm not really up on the USAF) on a day to day level. However, he appears (after the 4 eps I've seen) to be a good leader, who cares about those under his command. He knows when not to show fear, and he knows when to put a rocket up their backsides to make them move - (38 minutes talking to Ford) - but he didn't do that in a patronising or clumsy way.

Col Sumner - he was fab. One of the best military characters I've seen in Stargate or SG:A. He got a handle on the situation fast, and when Weir said pull back he didn't go into a "oh my a civilian is telling me what to do" hissy fit, but he immediately realised the danger and acted accordingly. Remember too how the look on his face when they were all looking at the forcefield holding back the water? And how he smiled when Shephard was introducing himself? He was a real person, and brave as all get out. He showed true leadership right up to his untimely end.

Let's get to Weir. She is young, but she's supposed to be a diplomat not a leader of an expeditionary force into the unknown, and it shows. Which, on reflection makes the writing and her actions seem quite ok. But the problem that I have is this: she shouldn't, with those "skills" she has displayed, be in command of the SG:A. Yes, a valuable team leader, but not overall leader. She relies on Shephard (as she would have relied on Sumner) to give the tactical and military overview. And that is good. she asked all the scientists to come up with something and (once she found out about the 38 minutes, which is inexcusable - she should have known that) didn't fanny about wasting too much time.

But still, her man management skills need polishing. Urgently. And until they are, I will continue to have a problem with her.

Which is in no way un-modly behaviour. Or would you rather we were all PTB yes-(wo)men?

[keshou]

I actually agree with MC, and no one could ever say that I don't like Weir.

Publically ripping into him was not productive, it potentially sews descention, and it doesn't really work with a high level diplomat. But than Briefing Room Sam doens't make much sense for someone who wants to come in and be part of a small unit. IMO, Carter had set herself up to be seperate and appart from the rest of SG1 to start with, and the show sidestepped the implications of that scene.

I think my point is that the writing for the character does get BETTER.

I'm afraid I'm with Major Fisher and Major Clanger on this one. (Hey, two Majors!)

I don't think the writers did Weir any favors early on but I agree that she was getting better in the later episodes.

I think they were trying so hard to prove she was a "tough leader" that she came across as making ill-advised decisions to prove she was "tough". They had her chew out the scientist to prove she could handle these situations. I think they were going for "forceful and strong" and it came across as brittle and shrill. A true leader inspires everyone to follow them, not forces them to follow them.

I don't have any problem with her consulting with Shephard or McKay. She's totally out of her depth in the military and science areas - she'd be foolish not to get advice from the military and scientific minds at her disposal.

[Major Clanger]

I think what Aschen tried to say was and I agrees with him that we did not think that this about Weir would be your opinion.Of course you have the right of your opinion and we respect that but we didn't espect that you would say you get back in line if Weir had to give you an order.

Ah, ok. But actually it was only metaphorically speaking. In the real world a leader wouldn't last long with that attitude.

During my military service I met all types of leader, and more than my fair share of the "shout loud enough and everyone will think I'm like a man" women types. It never works.

In the old days (and for all I know these days too) lots off rubbish officers and leaders were shot in the back by their own men to get them out of the way. A bad leader is a dangerous thing.

[Major Clanger]

I don't think the writers did Weir any favors early on but I agree that she was getting better in the later episodes.

Well, as I was writing my previous monster post (blame the meds and the fact that I'm ill for that) I suddenly thought that maybe it is intentional of the writers to do it like that.

Then I realised that it's probably just teething trouble with the character. I'll be interested to compare S2 Weir to S1 Weir later on.

[Shipperahoy]

I too had some serious problems with Weir in the first episodes. She came across as cold and very close to incompetent to me. I think that what was intended was to show her awkardness in being in command of military as well as civilians but she just rubbed me the wrong way. I especially didn't like her handling of the Athosian people in Suspicion. But they have humanized her somewhat in the later episodes so I have some hope that they'll round out her character even more.

[Lord Zedd]

. I especially didn't like her handling of the Athosian people in Suspicion. But they have humanized her somewhat in the later episodes so I have some hope that they'll round out her character even more.

That I can understand.She shouldn't left Teyla out of it.And well hope is good.She'll grow,you'll see.

[CultTVGirl]

With Halling (sp?) she also could have been a bit more diplomatic. It would not have hurt to let him (just him, the rest of them would have got in the way) stand in the control room, and speak to Teyla when they got down to one minute and no help in sight.

I would've pushed him down the stairs. Guess they're lucky I'm not in charge.

I love Weir. I don't know how she managed to keep as calm as she did in 38 Minutes with all those annoying people around.

And if I were her, I'd ask Rodney for help and advice too. Even if I didn't need it.

[Tok'Ra Hostess]

[QUOTE]

He is an excellent leader, he knows when to delegate, and he never ever raises his voice. He knows when to use the velvet glove over the steel fist, and when to take that velvet glove off. And he never makes a snap decision. He weighs the arguments carefully, takes advice when necessary and so on and so on.

All true, but to be fair, Hammond is military, deals mostly with military and so is used to being obeyed. Why would he have to raise his voice? He has the weight, not only of rank but of a carefully crafted military protocol behind him.

Weir, OTOH gets to herd cats.

That is why he's a General. There is a reason why there are no 25 year old Generals. There are very few 40 year old generals too (I'm guessing that's Weir's age?)

Ah! And there's that, too.

Jack... ah, I have serious issues with Jack as a General.

I don't have issues, per se, because I know he's going for the comedy - the sci-fi equivalent to Stalag 13? - but, yeah, I don't have a problem with Weir in the role of leader compared to that wacky wacko, General O'Neill.

Col Sumner - he was fab. One of the best military characters I've seen in Stargate or SG:A. He got a handle on the situation fast, and when Weir said pull back he didn't go into a "oh my a civilian is telling me what to do" hissy fit, but he immediately realised the danger and acted accordingly. Remember too how the look on his face when they were all looking at the forcefield holding back the water? And how he smiled when Shephard was introducing himself? He was a real person, and brave as all get out. He showed true leadership right up to his untimely end.

(<nods and goes OT> And that's one of the reasons why I like Sgt Bates; he really looked up to Sumner. )

But the problem that I have is this: she shouldn't, with those "skills" she has displayed, be in command of the SG:A. Yes, a valuable team leader, but not overall leader.

To be quite honest, I don't know what kind of person they should have sacrificed... er... sent off on this one-way mission. They had the military contingent, and the scientific contingent, but why Weir? Because she proved her worth in negotiating with the sys lords? She did show in that ep (IMO) that she could think on her feet; is that why the Prez gave her this assignment?

I suspect that the Prez was told that an SG expedition would likely meet potential friendlies - the Ancients - and that is where Weir would have been in her element, negotiating with TPTB in Atlantis on Earth's behalf.

Of course, things didn't turn out as planned and now the diplomat has to expand her role. Personally, I'm enjoying watching her work.