They nerfed the Asgard beam?

[Zamboni]

I thought the Asgard beam is the "pwnz all" weapon spanning two galaxies... The best "one hit wonder" of all time! What happened? Now the Wraith ships need TWO HITS to die? And some of them can even withstand it?

Shouldn't the Phoenix just cut through all the Wraith like hot knife through butter? Now it's like hot knife through... frozen butter that's really really thick and cool the knife mid-way and it gets stuck... Then exploded, and butter fly everywhere...

They should totally fit two Asgard "pwnz" beam on each ship... Double the combat capacity... In fact, fit two of everything on there... Two shield generators, two ZPM... And clone a Carter then put her there too!!! I mean, we've got clones running everywhere anyway.

And whatever happened to the Ori Daniel Cloak upgrade? If you want to "hit and run", use cloak!!!

While they're at it, put some Ancient drones on the ships too, forget those useless missiles! They never do anything!!!

Drones >>> Missiles, 'nuff said.

[PG15]

Hooray for exploding butter knife!

As for the beam; while, it's unfortunate the fandom raised it to such a high level when all we know is that they can cut through Ori ships (and Asuran Auroras) pretty easily, while we have no clue as to how the Wraith hives will fair with them. Pre-judgement, if anything.

[Wayston]

you also have to make a distinction between ZPM powered ships and not ZPM powered ships

for example you can bet that the ori invasion force all had ZPM's comming out of their ears and that is why they were so good

I'm sure that without them all of the show's ships are defeatable if the opponent is throwing everything and the kitchen sink at them with a reasonable amount of technology installed, regardless of their affiliation

[Zamboni]

Hooray for exploding butter knife!

As for the beam; while, it's unfortunate the fandom raised it to such a high level when all we know is that they can cut through Ori ships (and Asuran Auroras) pretty easily, while we have no clue as to how the Wraith hives will fair with them. Pre-judgement, if anything.

Exploding butter knives are no joke... Not only do you get cut by the splinters, but also grease everywhere... You lick the butter drops and go "mmm... sweet creamery butter" and then BAM! You cut your tongue on a piece of metal.

Anyway, if the beam can cut through both Ori and Ancient ships, I'm pretty sure that means it can cut through Wraith ships. Even if you argue that the Wraith is somehow more advanced than the Ancients, there's no way they can be more advanced than the Ori...

The Ori pwnz all!!! Well, except Asgard beam... So in closing, the natural order of the galaxies is this:

Chuck Norris > Asgard Beam > Ori Toilets > Ancient Boats > Wraith Ships

Therefore I say clone Chuck Norris and use him to power the Asgard beam, then we'll be invincible!!! Muwhahahahahah~~~!!!

[Xaeden]

It all depends on where you hit the ship. Being able to cut through something does not mean the ship is destroyed, especially a ship as massive as a Wraith Hive. The trick is to have it hit a location where it can cause secondary explosions. If you don't, it's like firing it into the dirt. You'll create a nice hole, but the beam itself is not capable of creating its own explosion so that's all you'll be left it. That doesn't mean those beams aren't insanely powerful, it just means you have to stay in combat a little longer to get the job done and since Sam was fighting a solo war she was trying to avoid any damage. Normally an Earth ship would fly in, take them both out, and return to Atlantis to make repairs.

As for the cloak, Merlin was the one who did it and it was explained that having a ZPM helped. Nobody has any idea how he did it, let alone how to do it under lesser power requirements so the Oddyssey will remain special in that regard for some time.

The same goes for drones. Sure, it would be nice for Earth ships to carry a supply of drones, but first you have to build an Ancient platform on the ship which a Human can interface with. However, they have no idea how any of that works and no instructions on how to build one.

[PG15]

Well, no arguing with the Chuck Norris part. And really, if you try, he'll materialize behind you and roundhouse kick you to death.

But I think the Hives' massive size and armor contained the beams somewhat.

[Zamboni]

So why don't they just fire the beam across the width of the ship or something? Surely if you cut a ship in half, it doesn't matter if there are secondary explosions...

And we still have no idea how the drones work?! What the hell has Rodney been doing? Inventing a new sandwich to go with his coffee?

[Ouroboros]

You can see the nerf happen right on screen to. The first hive they kill takes 2 hits then blows up, then they shoot at the second one and rather than make it half dead they get minimal damage.

Then they have to run away because the Wraith have those nasty little high velocity nerf Darts and Carter had good intel that one of those ***** hivequeens liked to put them in the freezer.

[Xaeden]

Anyway, if the beam can cut through both Ori and Ancient ships, I'm pretty sure that means it can cut through Wraith ships. Even if you argue that the Wraith is somehow more advanced than the Ancients, there's no way they can be more advanced than the Ori...

The Ori pwnz all!!! Well, except Asgard beam... So in closing, the natural order of the galaxies is this:

Chuck Norris > Asgard Beam > Ori Toilets > Ancient Boats > Wraith Ships

Therefore I say clone Chuck Norris and use him to power the Asgard beam, then we'll be invincible!!! Muwhahahahahah~~~!!!

Actually one wouldn't argue that the Wraith are more advanced than the Ori. One would argue that the Wraith designed their ships with better armor where as the Ori had no reason to do so since they designed insanely powerful shields and those beams are quite capable of taking out shields. As such an Ori ship is rather weak without its shields. A single nuke against its hull would take it out (it even has windows - the wraith do not) but a Wraith ship can survive a nuke because it made up for its lack of shield technology by developing a stronger hull. This doesn't make the Wraith more advanced as shield capable races do not have to worry about hull strength as much.

Regardless, the hull doesn't appear to be the issue here, it seems to have to do with the size (which PG15 mentioned). If that beam goes through any ship but does not hit critical systems or somewhere that will cause secondary explosions the ship will survive the attack via the hole in the dirt anology. Someone mentioned in another thread that you can see an Asuran ship survive one hit by a beam, but be taken out by the next. It's doubtful that it just took minimal amount of damage, but if it sealed off those areas there's no reason it couldn't function to some degree and later be repaired.

So why don't they just fire the beam across the width of the ship or something? Surely if you cut a ship in half, it doesn't matter if there are secondary explosions...

And we still have no idea how the drones work?! What the hell has Rodney been doing? Inventing a new sandwich to go with his coffee?

Because we have not seen that those beams are capable of moving once fired. From what we have seen thus far they appear to be limited in that once they are aimed at something they cannot be moved.

As for drones we saw Mckay fire one using only his computer in The Tower. However, in order to be able to destroy a ship you need to be able to fire a swarm and in order to fire a swarm you need a control chair that allows you to interface your mind with the drones. Being able to create a device like that which interacts with one's brain in ways they cannot begin to understand is a bit complicated and totally unbelievable for them to master at this stage.

[Myles]

Actually one wouldn't argue that the Wraith are more advanced than the Ori. One would argue that the Wraith designed their ships with better armor where as the Ori had no reason to do so since they designed insanely powerful shields and those beams are quite capable of taking out shields. As such an Ori ship is rather weak without its shields. A single nuke against its hull would take it out (it even has windows - the wraith do not) but a Wraith ship can survive a nuke because it made up for its lack of shield technology by developing a stronger hull. This doesn't make the Wraith more advanced as shield capable races do not have to worry about hull strength as much.

Regardless, the hull doesn't appear to be the issue here, it seems to have to do with the size (which PG15 mentioned). If that beam goes through any ship but does not hit critical systems or hits somewhere that will cause secondary explosions the ship will survive the attack via the hole in the dirt anology. Someone mentioned in another thread that you can see an Asuran ship survive one hit by a beam, but be taken out by the next. It's doubtful that it just took minimal amount of damage, but if it sealed off those areas there's no reason it couldn't function to some degree and later be repaired.

QFT

[Zamboni]

Because we have not seen that those beams are capable of moving once fired. From what we have seen thus far they appear to be limited in that once they are aimed at something they cannot be moved.

As for drones we saw Mckay fire one using only his computer in The Tower. However, in order to be able to destroy a ship you need to be able to fire a swarm and in order to fire a swarm you need a control chair that allows you to interface your mind with the drones. Being able to create a device like that which interacts with one's brain in ways they cannot begin to understand is a bit complicated and totally unbelievable for them to master at this stage.

Arg... Stupid Asgard and their non-swiveling beams! Their lack of sexual reproduction will be their downfall!!!

I don't think it's necessary to have a swarm of drones to kill a ship. Back in SG1 O'Neill took out a Goa'uld mothership with just one drone...

Rodney created an actual replicator capable of self-reasoning and learning, but can't make a drone firing device...? *sigh*...

So basically you're saying that Wraith ships are like the B-17's of the Pegasus? While Ori ships are like... Triplanes...? (but with a super beam)

Which is more powerful, the Asgard beam, or the Ori beam?

[Xaeden]

Arg... Stupid Asgard and their non-swiveling beams! Their lack of sexual reproduction will be their downfall!!!

I don't think it's necessary to have a swarm of drones to kill a ship. Back in SG1 O'Neill took out a Goa'uld mothership with just one drone...

Rodney created an actual replicator capable of self-reasoning and learning, but can't make a drone firing device...? *sigh*...

So basically you're saying that Wraith ships are like the B-17's of the Pegasus? While Ori ships are like... Triplanes...? (but with a super beam)

Which is more powerful, the Asgard beam, or the Ori beam?

I think it was two drones, I could be wrong. In any case, he got lucky. He fired, ran out of drones, asked Carter what now and she said lets hope we get lucky and it hits an area that will cause a secondary explosion. That's exactly what happened. If that was easily repeatable they could just send cloaked jumpers to a planet whenever they detect a Wraith ship approaching one and use it to destroy the ship. But on top of it being a luck factor, Wraith ships are less fragile than Goa'uld ships. Even after being hit by a Mark III and receiving massive damage from secondary explosions after the Daedalus pounded the dart bays, it wasn't destroyed and repaired itself enough to be flyable back to Atlantis a short time later. Meanwhile if you watch the drones destroying the other Hive you can actually see that some drones had enough time to go into the Hive, come out of the Hive, and go back in before the Hive blew up.

As for the replicator - All Rodney did was use a device that already existed to make the replicator. He did not do so from scratch, although we later see that Humans back on Earth managed to do just that. In any case, you're comparing apples and oranges. If he had a device that made control chairs for him out of raw materials, that comparison would work, but instead he'd have to design the whole thing himself with no instructions and no aids whatsoever. That's crazy. It's like trying to get someone from a thousand years ago to build a car. If they stumbled upon a factory that had the supplies ready and produced one just by pushing some buttons that would be like what Rodney did to make the replicator. But, if they had nothing but the car, they are not going to be able to figure out how to build one and they won't even be capable of building the parts required as you need other advanced machines for that. For building a control chair, you'd first have to learn how it interacts with the brain, you'd have to have a far better understanding of how the brain works than we do in modern times, you'd have to have the raw materials, (such as the crystals, which they do not know how to replicate and may not be able to take from other parts as the ones for the chair are probably unique to the chair) you'd have to know the mathematics involved, (which may be beyond his current understanding) and so on.

It's a complicated piece of technology which is just way beyond them right now. All this Ancient tech was made over millions of years by people who had a far better understanding of the universe given that their brains were so much more advanced. What little Earth has been able to create they have done so with extensive aids. Naquadah generators, were built after a painful process where Carter was shown step by step their construction and operation. Ships were made after hacking into Goa'uld computers and tweaking with technology that was easier for them to understand. The result was a very Earth ship with Earth weapons and Earth computers. Besides the use of crystals, engines, and shields the rest of the ship design was all modern Earth tech. Meanwhile the Asgard showed them how to replicate the technology they were given and so on. Nothing they can produce so far has been done by magically looking at a device and saying, "we can make this."

[2ndgenerationalteran]

since when was it the best weapon? Everything they showed us made its strength ambiguous.

[An-Alteran]

Another factor:

Orii ships are 1/3rd the size of a Hive and even they took 1 or two hits of Asgard beams on the hull after the shield failed before they were destroyed.

So you all are compairing apples and oranges.

What I thought was odd was that she retreated. The weapons performed fine.

[kirmit]

Actually one wouldn't argue that the Wraith are more advanced than the Ori. One would argue that the Wraith designed their ships with better armor where as the Ori had no reason to do so since they designed insanely powerful shields and those beams are quite capable of taking out shields. As such an Ori ship is rather weak without its shields. A single nuke against its hull would take it out (it even has windows - the wraith do not) but a Wraith ship can survive a nuke because it made up for its lack of shield technology by developing a stronger hull. This doesn't make the Wraith more advanced as shield capable races do not have to worry about hull strength as much.

The Ori ship took 2 or 3 hits to it's hull after the shields had failed, same as the armoured wraith ships so the Ori ships must've been armoured pretty well. The first Ori ship was only blown up quickly because they hit the engines which caused a massive explosion. Also the Oddy had a ZPM plugged in when taking on the Ori ships, that may of affected how strong the beam was, it did look more refined than the current ones, which would mean the Ori hull is even stonger than wraith. Oh yeah also the Hives do have windows, you can see them all over the ship and actually see Michael looking out of one in his quarters during 'No Mans Land'.

[Xaeden]

The Ori ship took 2 or 3 hits to it's hull after the shields had failed, same as the armoured wraith ships so the Ori ships must've been armoured pretty well. The first Ori ship was only blown up quickly because they hit the engines which caused a massive explosion. Also the Oddy had a ZPM plugged in when taking on the Ori ships, that may of affected how strong the beam was, it did look more refined than the current ones, which would mean the Ori hull is even stonger than wraith. Oh yeah also the Hives do have windows, you can see them all over the ship and actually see Michael looking out of one in his quarters during 'No Mans Land'.

Actually, my argument had to do with the size of the ship and if you hit systems that will cause secondary explosions. Same as you. The part that you quoted was my explaination of what one might say in regard to what Zamboni was discussing, but further down I say that I don't think the hull is an issue here at all (it only is in regards to other types of weapons). Any sizable ship can take a hit from an Asgard beam and survive depending on where you hit it given that the beams don't generate their own explosions as I mentioned (their power has to do with their ability to quickly breach an enemy's defenses) and the more massive the ship, the less likely you will be to hit such an area.

Also, yes I'm inclined to think the ZPM played a factor in beam strength as well, but I don't see how it does anything in regards to how quickly an unshielded ship is destroyed. Rather I suspect that it just affects how quickly those beams can take down a shield. However, until we see a ZPM powered 304 attack a replicator warship or until we see a regular 304 attack an Ori ship (which isn't bound to happen) we can't know for sure.

Anyway, thanks for the info regarding windows. I completely missed that and will go back and look.

[andy tyler]

The cloak only works on a ZPM powered ship.

DANIEL: we're cloaked
O'NEILL: the ship doesnt have that
DANIEL: it does now, having a ZPM helps

[PG15]

What I thought was odd was that she retreated. The weapons performed fine.

Same. I figured that she may have wanted to avoid taxing the shields since they were basically going from ship to ship to ship to...etc.

[Zamboni]

On a separate note, why is it that the Wraith weapon blobs are so accurate now? In almost all Wraith-to-Wraith battles, we see the blobs flying slowly and inaccurate, and the Wraith ships are always next to each other in close proximity...

Did Michael's transformation into human make him realize all the Wraith's faults or something? The Wraiths are now equipped with super ships!!!

And Rodney didn't just "push a button" to make a replicator... Not only that, it seems to contradict what Niam (or whatever his name was) told Weir...

Didn't the Asurans come about after the replicator cells bonded together by themselves to imitate the Lantians?

Anyway, it's Rodney McKay! He can make a computer out of rubber bands and tape!!! (or is that MacGyver?)

He ought to invent a weapon that fires ancient drones that shoots Asgard beams!!! Also it'd be fueled by coffee, so we get a running joke of him choosing between victory and his coffee supply...

[SoulReaver]

I thought the Asgard beam is the "pwnz all" weapon spanning two galaxies... The best "one hit wonder" of all time! What happened? Now the Wraith ships need TWO HITS to die? And some of them can even withstand it?

uh you're kidding right ? you are kidding, right ? right ?

have you seen the size of a hive ? these things are ****in huge. a 304 is like a gnat next to these things. they can survive a direct hit from a naquadah-enhanced nuke. the very idea that only 3 hits from the asgard beams (which would look like needles if scaled correctly btw), only powered by mere naquadah generators at that, could destroy a hive is the apex of absurdity not to mention inconsistency

I reckon that hive was already damaged by a previous pass. this at least would make some sense. this would need to be confirmed on JM's blog though (ie. PG, we need your services ^_^)