When is McKay going to change?

[IrishPisano]

character change is the only thing that truly drives a plot...

in SG-1 we saw O'Neill lighten up and make peace with his life
we saw Carter stop worrying about her reproductive organs

most of all we saw Daniel stop being the naive anti-violence researcher and open his eyes to reality



so far on Atlantis i feel we have not seen any real character changes.... sheppard's still sheppard... teyla's teyla... zelenka's still in love with the base commander...
ok, ronon's softened up a little...

i think, though, that McKay embodies the most potential for change... and i think that in light of there being no real significant strong governing storyarc to the series anymore... that perhaps if they began to evolve McKay's character moreso than they have (he has shown growth in terms of conduct during combat), it could make for stronger episodes from time to time

since SGA is a civilian expedition, bring the civilian center stage... push McKay to the forefront and force him to come face-to-face with himself once and for all and decide to actually overcome all those shortcomings he mentioned in Quarantine...

one way could be to have him spend half a season as a captive of the Wraith on the Wraith homeworld...



then again, this is coming close to Daniel and the Ancients and Daniel and Sixth... but then again, as per the book "Hero of a Thousand Faces" every story has already been told... so no biggie

[KindlyKeller]

I think McKay has grown a LOT. Most people complain they've invested TOO much time in him. At first, he was driven entirely by scientific curiosity and the desire for personal achievement, because it was all he really knew. Now, we've seen him realize the importance of personal relationships. He became extremely close to Sheppard, Beckett, Weir, and lately Teyla, and he mended his relationship with his sister too.

I really don't think we could ask for more or more rapid character progression for McKay.

He's become a good friend and a good soldier, but he's also "still Rodney." I commend them for the job they've done.

[gater101]

I think McKay has grown a LOT. Most people complain they've invested TOO much time in him. At first, he was driven entirely by scientific curiosity and the desire for personal achievement, because it was all he really knew. Now, we've seen him realize the importance of personal relationships. He became extremely close to Sheppard, Beckett, Weir, and lately Teyla, and he mended his relationship with his sister too.

I really don't think we could ask for more or more rapid character progression for McKay.

He's become a good friend and a good soldier, but he's also "still Rodney." I commend them for the job they've done.

I agree with you here. We didn't get to see Rodney's reaction to

Spoiler:

Teyla's pregnancy but we did get to see him give her a gift. Even though it's still a very "Rodney" gift, he invested a lot of time in making it.

He even healed Ronon's scars in Tao of Rodney. And in The Ark, he told Sheppard not to do this suicide mission. The Rodney of old wouldn't even think of that.

Another thing about his relationship with Teyla, as seen in Kindred

Spoiler:

He encourages her to her face about her vision, even though he then goes to Sheppard and says no way is it a dream.

Rodney would have just laughed in her face, as he did in even The Seer.

He definitely has changed.

[MIZA]

whatchu talking about he as changed a lot , i think McKay has improved greatly, i mean look he even gave Teyla a present

[silvercomet]

I think McKay has grown a LOT. Most people complain they've invested TOO much time in him. At first, he was driven entirely by scientific curiosity and the desire for personal achievement, because it was all he really knew. Now, we've seen him realize the importance of personal relationships. He became extremely close to Sheppard, Beckett, Weir, and lately Teyla, and he mended his relationship with his sister too.

I really don't think we could ask for more or more rapid character progression for McKay.

He's become a good friend and a good soldier, but he's also "still Rodney." I commend them for the job they've done.

There is no need to add something. In a situation like Atlantis I would be grateful to have someone like him around.

[IrishPisano]

how he's changed so far is insignificant compared to how much he is capable of changing...

most of what we've seen and what you've all mentioned are simply by products of living and working with the same people for 4 years...

i'm talking about the major character breakthroughs...

for instance: if McKay overcame his ego and finally admitted to himself that he's not perfect, that he's not as smart as Sam or the Ancients. His realization that sometimes they are not just calculations on a tablet, but life and death decisions he's calculating (like Trinity)

he has the most growth potential, and given that Atlantis is not going to last another 6 seasons, i'd like to see them explore the full depths of that potential... they've only scratched the surface so far...

[KindlyKeller]

how he's changed so far is insignificant compared to how much he is capable of changing...

most of what we've seen and what you've all mentioned are simply by products of living and working with the same people for 4 years...

i'm talking about the major character breakthroughs...

for instance: if McKay overcame his ego and finally admitted to himself that he's not perfect, that he's not as smart as Sam or the Ancients. His realization that sometimes they are not just calculations on a tablet, but life and death decisions he's calculating (like Trinity)

he has the most growth potential, and given that Atlantis is not going to last another 6 seasons, i'd like to see them explore the full depths of that potential... they've only scratched the surface so far...

But we HAVE seen that. First of all, he IS as smart as Sam, but he entertained the notion that he wasn't in "Grace Under Pressure." And he DEFINITELY understands the consequences of his actions. It's ironic that the episode you point to -- "Trinity" -- is the one where he DID change in that regard.

I don't really think one can credibly argue that there haven't been significant changes in him. They've invested a lot of effort toward that end, and I think it's been entirely successful.

[MerryK]

how he's changed so far is insignificant compared to how much he is capable of changing...

most of what we've seen and what you've all mentioned are simply by products of living and working with the same people for 4 years...

i'm talking about the major character breakthroughs...

I can't see anywhere for McKay to grow that hasn't been touched on—I see huge changes just in the past four years for McKay, probably more than he has changed since he was 16, and anymore and he wouldn't be McKay. I'd say his growth is on par with Daniel's through all ten seasons of SG1, personally. He's learned humility, admitted it, knows what tact is and when to use it, the value of personal relationships over science, etc.

Just as a side note, I think we've seen other characters change, just much more slowly (there's not much about their characters that would realistically change under the circumstances).

[fumblesmcstupid]

I see the way Rodney has changed everytime I watch a 4th season episode, then I watch a 1st season episode.

If you watch Hide and Seek or Suspicion - then fast forward to Spoils of War, you can SEE the way he has changed.

I see the way he whines if they have to walk 5 miles like in Vengeance but so would I.

A lot of the time he says what people are thinking
"Why can't we take a jumper?
"I'm tired"
"I'm Hungry"
"do we HAVE to talk to the Villagers?"
"why can't I get the Hawt sexy girl?

Rodney is the One character who has changed the most of all of them! I can't wait for season 5 to see what he does next!

[IrishPisano]

I see the way Rodney has changed everytime I watch a 4th season episode, then I watch a 1st season episode.

If you watch Hide and Seek or Suspicion - then fast forward to Spoils of War, you can SEE the way he has changed.

I see the way he whines if they have to walk 5 miles like in Vengeance but so would I.

A lot of the time he says what people are thinking
"Why can't we take a jumper?
"I'm tired"
"I'm Hungry"
"do we HAVE to talk to the Villagers?"
"why can't I get the Hawt sexy girl?

Rodney is the One character who has changed the most of all of them! I can't wait for season 5 to see what he does next!

there is a difference between change and growth...

rodney's grown since joining Atlantis... but he's still the same...

he's grown a little more mature, a little less cowardly, etc...

but he's still the over-arrogant, whiny, scientist he was back in season 1...




change is when you become different... change is significant...
rodney has not changed... he has merely grown... and growth is not change...

change is Michael Corleone in Godfather 1 - going from saying "That's my family, Kay. That's not me." to saying, "Don't ask me about my business." Going from denouncing his family and remaining a civilian not associated with the mafia, to fully embracing it and becoming a cold-blooded calculating killer... THAT is change...

Rodney... is merely growth at this point.

[P-90_177]

there is a difference between change and growth...

rodney's grown since joining Atlantis... but he's still the same...

he's grown a little more mature, a little less cowardly, etc...

but he's still the over-arrogant, whiny, scientist he was back in season 1...




change is when you become different... change is significant...
rodney has not changed... he has merely grown... and growth is not change...

change is Michael Corleone in Godfather 1 - going from saying "That's my family, Kay. That's not me." to saying, "Don't ask me about my business." Going from denouncing his family and remaining a civilian not associated with the mafia, to fully embracing it and becoming a cold-blooded calculating killer... THAT is change...

Rodney... is merely growth at this point.

I know of no stargate main character that has out right changed as opposed to grown. The only exception being Ford.

[IrishPisano]

I know of no stargate main character that has out right changed as opposed to grown. The only exception being Ford.

that's exactly my point... no character has ever truly changed. Daniel comes close going from his anti-violence/pro-peace approach in season 1 to his unwavering resolve to destroy the Ori in season 10... but he falls short, as his character evolution was merely a lot of growth and overcoming of his naivte....

rodney has a lot of potential to change... moreso than anyone who's been on SG-1 or SGA... he can overcome his arrogance... he can stop letting his ego control him and put the expedition at risk... he can endear himself to his teammates and stop being the whiny fifth wheel... he can learn humility... and he can stop whining... etc etc... if he accomplishes all of this, then we can say that he's truly changed...

i think that this would be a good arc for SGA to employ... have him become the driving force of the next two seasons...

SGA needs a strong character-focused storyarc to last any longer than season 5.... otherwise it'll just be another run-of-the-mill science fiction show... and will fall even further away from SG-1's quality...

[MerryK]

that's exactly my point... no character has ever truly changed. Daniel comes close going from his anti-violence/pro-peace approach in season 1 to his unwavering resolve to destroy the Ori in season 10... but he falls short, as his character evolution was merely a lot of growth and overcoming of his naivte....

rodney has a lot of potential to change... moreso than anyone who's been on SG-1 or SGA... he can overcome his arrogance... he can stop letting his ego control him and put the expedition at risk... he can endear himself to his teammates and stop being the whiny fifth wheel... he can learn humility... and he can stop whining... etc etc... if he accomplishes all of this, then we can say that he's truly changed...

Er, real change happens very, very seldomly in real life. Most people grow, and many grow significantly, but almost never to the point where people look back on their younger years and see "change" as you seem to want.

[IrishPisano]

Er, real change happens very, very seldomly in real life. Most people grow, and many grow significantly, but almost never to the point where people look back on their younger years and see "change" as you seem to want.

in real life, yes, but alas we are not watching real life, we are watching a truncated period of time encased within a television show.

in all forms literary, (books, tv shows, film, etc...), when the main arc is a character-driven plot, the main character (or one of the main characters if the main point of focus is a team) has to change by the end of the literary work...

in Godfather Michael Corleone changed by the end of the book... and really he changed in less than 1 year: from the moment we met him until he visited his father in the hospital and agreed to kill Sollozzo and McClusky

In Stargate, the film, Jack changed by the end of the film (a couple of days within the context of the film)... he went from an apathetic suicide-mission soldier no longer wishing to live, to someone who's decided to keep on living...

Aragorn in LOTR - the films... (haven't read the books). He goes from not wanting to rule Gondor to defending it as its king...

Tony Soprano - in season 6, he changed during his coma...

etc
etc
etc

so while people take forever to change in real life, when you're dealing with the literary world, and character-driven plots, the characters have to change by the end of the storyarc...

now, stargate atlantis is NOT a character-driven story... and i have no problem with that.

my suggestion is: make it character driven story... make the governing story-arc for 1 or 2 seasons revolve around a single character, McKay... his change will drive the arc... and i can guarantee that it will make for stronger, better episodes...

[silvercomet]

in real life, yes, but alas we are not watching real life, we are watching a truncated period of time encased within a television show.

in all forms literary, (books, tv shows, film, etc...), when the main arc is a character-driven plot, the main character (or one of the main characters if the main point of focus is a team) has to change by the end of the literary work...

in Godfather Michael Corleone changed by the end of the book... and really he changed in less than 1 year: from the moment we met him until he visited his father in the hospital and agreed to kill Sollozzo and McClusky

In Stargate, the film, Jack changed by the end of the film (a couple of days within the context of the film)... he went from an apathetic suicide-mission soldier no longer wishing to live, to someone who's decided to keep on living...

Aragorn in LOTR - the films... (haven't read the books). He goes from not wanting to rule Gondor to defending it as its king...

Tony Soprano - in season 6, he changed during his coma...

etc
etc
etc

so while people take forever to change in real life, when you're dealing with the literary world, and character-driven plots, the characters have to change by the end of the storyarc...

now, stargate atlantis is NOT a character-driven story... and i have no problem with that.

my suggestion is: make it character driven story... make the governing story-arc for 1 or 2 seasons revolve around a single character, McKay... his change will drive the arc... and i can guarantee that it will make for stronger, better episodes...

I can only speak for the example of LOTR because I don't know the others. How do you make the difference between growth and change? For me Aragorn grew into the role as a leader. He ran away from this responsibility in the past. That means, he has always been a leader personality inside.

With this example for me McKay has changed. He has changed from a selfish person who is only interest in science in a person who not only has friends for the first time in his life but also cares for them and even defend them. He has changed from a cowardly person to a little bit more brave one. So he is now a person which he never was before. McKay sure is the most interesting character of SGA and has made the most development.

And for the arrogance: This is his personality. Change needn't mean to change everything. This isn't possible in real life and I guess it would even be too much in a TV show. With too much change it wouldn't be the McKay I'd like to see.