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    Originally posted by jenks View Post
    Again, you're misunderstanding scientific method. The conclusion scientist may or may not draw from what they see, are different from what they can prove. Evolution isn't an idea dreamt up from what we can see, it's something that can be proven through testing, and has been, over and over again.
    Not as far as I am concerned. I doubt evolution science has ever watched one species change into another one. Maybe you can cause mutation in a lab, but mutations may not be the same thing as evolution. I won't be convinced until evolutionists can take life all the way back to it's first appearance on this planet, and trace every evolutionary development from that point to species in existence today. And not induced in a lab, but actually seeing it happen in the real world naturally. I want to see one member of a species reproduce a first ever new species, in the natural world.

    Everything I have seen on science TV has said that life began on this planet as a single cell organism. This supposedly happened by just the right organic elements coming together under just the right conditions for this "miracle" to happen. Non-living matter becoming living. And all life we have today evolved from this beginning. And this originated in the oceans. And gradually different cells combined into colonies in such ways that the first mammals crawled out of the water onto dry land. And from this evolved all we know today. I am willing to believe this if someone can tell me the process by which this happens. So explain to me the process by which non-living matter becomes living matter, and we can go from there.

    ~Dave

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      Originally posted by ~Dave View Post
      Not as far as I am concerned. I doubt evolution science has ever watched one species change into another one. Maybe you can cause mutation in a lab, but mutations may not be the same thing as evolution.
      Well what can I say, it is. If a population of microbes mutate a genetic change that is advantageous, then the microbes have evolved, that's what evolution is.

      I won't be convinced until evolutionists can take life all the way back to it's first appearance on this planet, and trace every evolutionary development from that point to species in existence today.
      Why? That's akin to not believing the theory of gravitation unless scientist have evidence of every stone ever fallen, it's illogical. Why else would species be appearing and disappearing one after the other, showing a clear genetic progression, if not for evolution when what we see fits the theory so perfectly? Why would evolution be happening now, but for some reason not then? I suppose it's impossible to really prove what happened in the past without a shadow of a doubt, but this applies too all science, why is evolution always singled out? My guess would be because it contradicts people's religions, and if it didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.

      And not induced in a lab, but actually seeing it happen in the real world naturally.
      Who said anything about inducing mutations? That happen on their own.

      I want to see one member of a species reproduce a first ever new species, in the natural world.
      If you're talking about single celled organism, that's already been done. If you're talking about large animals then that's impossible, the time scales that are involved with the evolution of complex organisms are many times your lifetime.

      Everything I have seen on science TV has said that life began on this planet as a single cell organism. This supposedly happened by just the right organic elements coming together under just the right conditions for this "miracle" to happen. Non-living matter becoming living. And all life we have today evolved from this beginning. And this originated in the oceans. And gradually different cells combined into colonies in such ways that the first mammals crawled out of the water onto dry land. And from this evolved all we know today.
      That's speculation based on the science. The process exists, whether it happened or not is impossible to know without a time machine, but if it happens now why wouldn't it then?

      I am willing to believe this if someone can tell me the process by which this happens. So explain to me the process by which non-living matter becomes living matter, and we can go from there.
      That's got nothing to do with evolution, what you're talking about is called abiogenesis. Evolution theory explains how one species evolves into another, it's got nothing to do with how life started.
      Last edited by jenks; 13 December 2008, 02:41 PM.

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        Originally posted by jenks View Post
        Well what can I say, it is. If a population of microbes mutate a genetic change that is advantageous, then the microbes have evolved, that's what evolution is.



        What you're asking isn't science.



        Who said anything about inducing mutations? That happen on their own.



        If you're talking about single celled organism, that's already been done. If you're talking about large animals then that's impossible, the time scales that are involved with the evolution of complex organisms are many times your lifetime.



        That's speculation based on the science. The process exists, whether it happened or not is impossible to know without a time machine, but if it happens now why wouldn't it then?



        That's got nothing to do with evolution, what you're talking about is called abiogenesis. Evolution theory explains how one species evolves into another, it's got nothing to do with how life started.
        You sound like you really know what you're talking about. So I defer to you on this. You might be right that I just don't understand the subject, and therefore just confuse the issue. So I will spend more time listing, and less time talking. Thanks for staying with me on this.

        ~Dave

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          No probs

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            Originally posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post
            As I said before, one has to ask God for guidance and wisdom. If Satan exists, then God must as well. Evil isn't evil without goodness. Goodness and righteousness can't be without evil. Therefor, if Satan exists, so does God. If you pray to Him by name and and ask for guidance, He will hear you.


            The reason religion and the Bible are necessary is because even when people have good intentions they can still be led astray. The rules laid down in the Bible are like the laws different governments have to help make their people's lives better. They're easy guidelines for when people are confused or lost. Like ~Dave said before, the alternative to a standard code of conduct is anarchy. You obviously can't trust each and every person to agree with each other on what's right or wrong.

            And God does respect people who do good for the sake of doing good. The thing is, God is all things good. This "good" you speak of is God. So, if someone simply doesn't believe in God for lack of evidence, but tries their best to be a good person and lives their lives for the betterment of humanity, God will certainly have more mercy on them than on those who do horrible things in the name of Him. It's only because it's so much harder to know what is right or wrong and to be led astray than people care to think that God teaches us to strive towards Him and follow His Word.

            So... am I making sense? I'm not feeling well tonight and I can't think as clearly as usual... so just keep on asking if you're still confused.



            As ~Dave said, there you go. You had free choice of will and made your choice. It certainly doesn't defeat the purpose of free will, it is a choice to follow God's teachings. You may say, "Well, if I had free will and if God really respected that, then why is he going to send me to hell for not choosing Him?" That's the thing, hell isn't exactly a punishment, it's more of a consequence. Hell isn't as much an actual physical place as it is simple separation from God. Heaven is being with God, hell is being away. God is ultimate joy, being without God is ultimate suffering.

            And that brings me back to what I said about God having mercy on those who do good for the sake of good. Even though they don't believe in God, they're actually doing His will anyway. So He will have mercy on them and give them... when they die, it will be clear that He actually does exist. So those who were good people but didn't believe will have one last chance to accept His love and mercy.



            I'm Catholic and certainly do say the Hail Mary. But I'd like to make one thing clear: no Catholic will tell you that they are worshiping the Mother of God as they should be God. The Hail Mary and other prayers to saints and such are forms of asking for their intersession, not forms of worship to them.

            "Hail Mary, full of grace, of Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy whom, Jesus": Just a greeting.
            "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.": Just a request for her to intercede to her Son for us.

            See? We're just asking her to pray for us to her Son. Remember the wedding at Cana? When Mary told Jesus they had run out of wine? At first, He seemed reluctant to do anything about it. But Mary told the servants to do what He said, then He did turn the water to wine to please His Mother. That's why we ask her to pray for us, because as God's mother, she is the most influential person one can ask to pray for them.



            Old. And.... not really. How is Genesis definitive?

            It's the New Testament that's definitive. And a lot of it is historically accurate. Well, all of it is, but I mean that even non-believers can see some of it.
            Ohne, I do have something against Catholic practices, as praying to saints is not biblical. In fact, the Bible makes no distinction between the Catholic "Saints" and saints as refering to believers in general. As well, the New Testament clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. As well, the N.T. also clearly states that we may come boldly unto the throne of grace. It mentions nothing about Mary. She was a vessel used by God. She is not God's mother, but the mother of Christ. Because Christ is fully God and fully man, and yet God is spirit and not man, Mary is the mother of Christ. However, Christ himself never gave his mother any special recognition. Remember when Christ was told that His family was waiting for Him? He pointed to His disciples and said "Behold, my mother and brethren." And because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, we have direct access to the Father through Christ Jesus. We do not need any other mediator. And, God certainly rewards the good done by men, works without salvation through Christ is meaningless. One must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. Hell is a consequence. But remember, there is a punishment. the lake of fire is a spiritual place of punishment. Those not written in the book of life will not enter into Heaven. The lake of fire is not merely a place absent from God, but a place of perpetual, eternal torment.

            Oh, and when the Bible says that God made every animal after it's own kind, I think it actually means it. Now, the OT does not distinguish between a whale and a fish, but describes the animals as the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, the cattle, and the creeping things. Now, I think it's pretty clear that each animal familia was created as its own kind. And while we do know that the DNA of certain species diversifies and differentiates over time, we do not know for certain whether one type of animal can turn into another, like a reptile into a bird. The Bible clearly distinguishes the two. As well, the bible clearly says that God made man as man, not as a primate-like animal that became homo sapiens.

            Also, I will say that those outside of Christ don't necessarily do God's will. God will direct circumstances so that His will is accomplished. That's what Paul meant when He wrote, "All things work together for good to them that love God, that are called according to His purpose." That means that even the evil that people do, will in the end work together to achieve God's will. that's why we speak of God's perfect will and God's permissive will.

            The Bible is the divinely inspired record of God's love and righteousness. It contains everything man needs to live holy. Sure, the Bible was written by men. But it is in no wise just a rip off from other religions. Christianity, and our holidays were set up to replace the Roman pagan days, (and it is suspected that the concept of the disciples and other Biblical followers of Christ as "Saints" was meant to replace the Roman gods and goddesses).

            The New Testament was written during the Roman Empire, around 60-69 A.D, because that's when the Apostles were aging and msot of their missionary work in reaching the lost and establishing churches was finished. The OT stretches back to around 4000 BC, I believe, following the Hebrew escape from bondage. So, the Bible in it's entirety was completed over a period of 4000 years. Now it wasn't collectively called the Bible then.
            Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth or easy...

            ... or that any man can measure the tides and hurricanes he will
            encounter on the strange journey.


            Spoiler:

            2 Cor. 10:3-5
            3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
            4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
            5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

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              Originally posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post
              As I said before, one has to ask God for guidance and wisdom. If Satan exists, then God must as well. Evil isn't evil without goodness. Goodness and righteousness can't be without evil. Therefor, if Satan exists, so does God. If you pray to Him by name and and ask for guidance, He will hear you.

              Does this apply to every decision making process? Surely if someone is that literal then they effectively have "no free will" at all and have divorced themselves from any kind of thought process.

              If that is called living we may as well be robots.
              Go home aliens, go home!!!!

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                Originally posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post

                The bible doesn't contradict evolution at all. And it doesn't even imply that the world is "X" number of years. That's merely one interpritation.[/COLOR]

                out of pure curiosity, what are your beliefs on evolution myn? i won't criticize you if they aren't the same as mine
                Vice Admiral and occasionally the Acting Leader of the Gateworld Cantina
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                  I'm fuzzy on the free will thing as well. They say God is all knowing. So He knows what I'm going to do every second of my entire life. So, if my actions are known before I make them, then how do I have free will? Don't I have to do exactly what God knows I will do? I cannot choose to do anything else? Definitely not clear on this one either.

                  ~Dave

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                    Originally posted by ~Dave
                    I'm fuzzy on the free will thing as well. They say God is all knowing. So He knows what I'm going to do every second of my entire life. So, if my actions are known before I make them, then how do I have free will? Don't I have to do exactly what God knows I will do? I cannot choose to do anything else? Definitely not clear on this one either.
                    I Don't think it is the possible omniscience of a god that precludes free will, but it's omnipotence. Having a god know everything in advance doesn't effect the decisions we make. But if the god is also omnipotent, it would mean that everything that happens is the will of this god.

                    To me the existence of free will is more about us being able to make conscious decisions. To what extent are the decisions we make the result of processes in our brain that we aren't aware of? When we make a decision is it because are we truly free in our choice, or are we limited by certain "programs" in our brain that only allow a limited number of choices?
                    sigpic

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                      Hubble Deep Field > God

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                        So, is there a God, or not? The only way science can answer that for me is to tell me one thing. How did the first "something" get created out of nothing? No matter how far you go into the universe and it's creation, it all boils down to this one question. And could this happen as a natural phenomenon, or did it have to be Divine?

                        ~Dave

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                          Originally posted by ~Dave
                          So, is there a God, or not? The only way science can answer that for me is to tell me one thing. How did the first "something" get created out of nothing? No matter how far you go into the universe and it's creation, it all boils down to this one question. And could this happen as a natural phenomenon, or did it have to be Divine?
                          The existence of a god is not necessary to explain the existence of the universe. If a god created the universe then how did this god came into existence? If this god does not need a creator, then why would the universe need one?

                          It is possible that there are gods, but not necessary. Because gods aren't necessary to explain the existence of the universe, and because there is no evidence of their existence, i do not see any reason to assume their existence.
                          sigpic

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                            Originally posted by Betelgeuze View Post
                            The existence of a god is not necessary to explain the existence of the universe. If a god created the universe then how did this god came into existence? If this god does not need a creator, then why would the universe need one?

                            It is possible that there are gods, but not necessary. Because gods aren't necessary to explain the existence of the universe, and because there is no evidence of their existence, i do not see any reason to assume their existence.
                            All great questions. I wish I knew.

                            With regard to the highlighted text, this is by no means certain. People tend to fill in the gaps in science to explain what they don't know. I'm "guessing" that "nothingness" is inherent, and "stuff" has to be introduced. Cold is inherent and heat has to be introduced.

                            Since I'm in linear time, I can't step outside that and think outside this box. So, I can't imagine something that's always been, and always will be. Infinite time has no meaning because an infinite number of days placed end to end still has an end to the last time period. Going back to the Big Bang doesn't even help much. What was it that exploded? Where did it come from? And why did it explode? To me, these theories are as fantastic as believing in God the Creator of everything.

                            ~Dave

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                              Why fill in the gaps of science with fantasies? It's more productive to see it as a challenge to fill these gaps with new scientific discoveries. It is dangerous to say; science doesn't explain this, therefore it must be done by a god. This kind of mindset can lead to viewing certain things as holy.The dogmas that come with it can prevent further scientific inquiry. An example is the opposition against research involving embryonic stem cells, by people who have the unfounded belief that there is such a thing as a soul.


                              Yes, the Big Bang theory is complicated, but why complicate things even further by introducing gods? One can accept the existence of gods as a possibillity, but what i don't understand is how one can possibly determine that there is a specific god.
                              sigpic

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                                Originally posted by Betelgeuze View Post
                                Why fill in the gaps of science with fantasies? It's more productive to see it as a challenge to fill these gaps with new scientific discoveries. It is dangerous to say; science doesn't explain this, therefore it must be done by a god. This kind of mindset can lead to viewing certain things as holy.The dogmas that come with it can prevent further scientific inquiry. An example is the opposition against research involving embryonic stem cells, by people who have the unfounded belief that there is such a thing as a soul.


                                Yes, the Big Bang theory is complicated, but why complicate things even further by introducing gods? One can accept the existence of gods as a possibillity, but what i don't understand is how one can possibly determine that there is a specific god.
                                Dangerous in what way? I don't see how it is dangerous to question anything. We just try to follow the evidence where ever it leads us. (Quote from CSI. LOL!) Unless you can prove that there is no such thing as a soul, maybe not considering this is what's dangerous. I simply don't know.

                                I'm also not sure the BBT is complicated. So far it seems pretty straight forward, to me. Something existed, exploded, and the universe is the debris from that explosion. In my opinion, a God would not complicate this. It would simplify it. And the simplest explanation is supposed to be the desired one in science. At least that's what I get from Occam's Razor. And until I get some information as to what happened to create the first matter, I can't rule out God. But God won't stop me from trying to find out.

                                It might be that black holes in some other universe exited here in the form of a white hole spewing matter from there into here. But it still leaves where that came from unanswered. I'm not sure we can ever know the answer, or would believe it if we did.

                                ~Dave

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