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Thread: Religious Beliefs

  1. #561
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post
    Actually, certain numerals might not have to be taken literally. The bible was originally written in Hebrew. Some words in the Hebrew language have more than one meaning. Certain numbers, for example, can also mean something much less specific.

    And I'd like to add that nowhere does it say anything about a 24 hour day. It just uses the words "morning", "evening" and "day".

    The bible doesn't contradict evolution at all. And it doesn't even imply that the world is "X" number of years. That's merely one interpritation.



    No. They were perfectly willing for and open to Him writing through them.
    With regard to the highlighted text, these are the people who claim this is approximately the year 6000. I don't know the exact number. But you get the idea? It was a 24 hour clock/day.

    *edit* This was from the creation of the animals, plants, and mankind given at the beginning of Genesis. Before that, the Earth was here, but we have no way of knowing what was here, or what happened. All we can do is dig up remains, and theorize. At least according to the people you mention.

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    Last edited by ~Dave; December 13th, 2008 at 06:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave View Post
    I can accept that interbreeding between some species of animals can produce some interesting characteristics which could be another sub-species within a species. That along with some adaptive evolution to adjust to different climactic conditions.
    Evolution is evolution, you're trying to make a distinction where there isn't one.

    But I'm not seeing anything in nature or anywhere else to account for mankind as being evolved from lower animals of any kind.
    I don't see how, the fossil record speaks for itself. It's a falsifiable fact that evolution occurs in nature, so why would we not accept that it happened in the past? Especially given that what evolution predicts, is found exactly as we would have expected in the fossil record. How can a science be correct now and not then, and why would we think that anyway?

    "Putting two and two together", is not proof. There is simply nothing to prove primates turned into human beings no matter how much time passed to get it done.
    What would you consider proof? Everything evolution theory predicts is found in nature, we know evolution happens now, why would it have been different in the past? Do you question gravitation theory in this manner? Is gravity in doubt because we can't prove that it worked in the past as it does now?

  3. #563
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Evolution is evolution, you're trying to make a distinction where there isn't one.



    I don't see how, the fossil record speaks for itself. It's a falsifiable fact that evolution occurs in nature, so why would we not accept that it happened in the past? Especially given that what evolution predicts, is found exactly as we would have expected in the fossil record. How can a science be correct now and not then, and why would we think that anyway?



    What would you consider proof? Everything evolution theory predicts is found in nature, we know evolution happens now, why would it have been different in the past? Do you question gravitation theory in this manner? Is gravity in doubt because we can't prove that it worked in the past as it does now?
    Evolution predicts nothing. Evolution scientists observe remains and tries to put a theory on what they find. The theory changes over time as contradictory evidence is found. It is evolution which slaves to it's theory, not fossils which tell them anything. I think it's all guess work "substantiated" by unprovable/anecdotal/circumstantial fossil records. And we have a long history of jumping to the wrong conclusions based on this kind of evidence. But that's just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave View Post
    Not seeing it. If I'm reading the Bible correctly, then God did something about 4000BC that caused all life to be wiped out and then restarted life on Earth. (The Earth became void and without form.) So this is actually the second (at least) Earth age, and all the fossils which date before 4000BC belong to the previous age. And God began then to make all the animals and plants and people. From such a recent past, there is simply not enough time for evolution to play any part in the Christian Bible. At least according to my reading of it.

    ~Dave
    than how do you account for the existence of humanity before 4000 bc?
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave View Post
    Evolution predicts nothing. Evolution scientists observe remains and tries to put a theory on what they find. The theory changes over time as contradictory evidence is found. It is evolution which slaves to it's theory, not fossils which tell them anything. I think it's all guess work "substantiated" by unprovable/anecdotal/circumstantial fossil records. And we have a long history of jumping to the wrong conclusions based on this kind of evidence. But that's just my opinion.

    ~Dave
    those three words describe what "evidence" you have for god.
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave View Post
    Evolution predicts nothing.
    It's scientific theory for crying out loud, of course it does! It predicts that animals that mutate helpful genes will gain an advantage over the rest of the population, and as such these genes will be spread around and become more prominent, over a period of time the changes in genetic make up of a population will be so significant that the population will no longer be the species it started as.

    Evolution scientists observe remains and tries to put a theory on what they find.
    No they don't, you're extremely misinformed. The scientific method behind evolution happens in a lab, evolution at the cellular level has been witnessed and studied. Hell, why do you think the flu vaccine needs to be updated every year? Because the virus mutates, changes to a point at which the vaccine no longer works, and thus evolves.

    The theory changes over time as contradictory evidence is found.
    Does it, how?

    It is evolution which slaves to it's theory, not fossils which tell them anything.
    Fossils aren't used to prove evolution, they're actually studied in order to try and disprove evolution, as if they showed us anything other than what evolution theory predicts then the science would be in doubt, as it happens of course, they don't, what we see is what the theory predicts perfectly.

    I think it's all guess work "substantiated" by unprovable/anecdotal/circumstantial fossil records.
    If you think that then you don't seem to understand scientific method. What you're describing is a hypothesis, not a theory.

    And we have a long history of jumping to the wrong conclusions based on this kind of evidence. But that's just my opinion.
    They're not jumping to conclusions, the theory is built by mountains of falsifiable evidence that you're either unaware of, or ignoring. Through our knowledge of biology, we know that evolution can't not happen.

  7. #567
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandora's_Box View Post
    Old Testament or New Testament? 'Cause Genesis is pretty definitive in its world view.
    And its worldview is pro-evolution, as was concluded by Jewish theologians as early as 11th century. Which is why "Intelligent Design" doesn't fare well among Orthodox Jews.

    "What we see marking the flight of galaxies with our telescopes, Maimonides saw from his metaphysical view."- Arnold Penzias, who earned a Nobel Prize for his Big Bang research.
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
    those three words describe what "evidence" you have for god.
    Exactly why I'm not invested in any single theory. Just because I can't prove something, doesn't mean I discount it. Just because evolutionists can't prove their theories to me, doesn't mean I say they are wrong. Just because creationists can't prove god exists, doesn't mean I discount that theory either. All sides have what they believe to be absolute proof they are correct. And yet neither is provable as far as I am concerned.

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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    And its worldview is pro-evolution, as was concluded by Jewish theologians as early as 11th century. Which is why "Intelligent Design" doesn't fare well among Orthodox Jews.

    "What we see marking the flight of galaxies with our telescopes, Maimonides saw from his metaphysical view."- Arnold Penzias, who earned a Nobel Prize for his Big Bang research.
    I see that from circumstantial observable evidence that scientists believed the world was flat. Then they were able to see a little better, and changed that to the world is round, but is the center of the universe. That model worked well enough to predict seasons, although it was a bit complex. Then the sun became the center of the universe. And after that, the sun was only the center of our solar system of planets. Each theory got changed to fit the new observable evidence. And I maintain that in the future, as mankind's observation powers get better, they will find some of the things we believe today to be completely wrong as well. It has to happen. Yeah, I know. But we're modern. We know everything. But that's what they said when the world was still flat. Every age considers itself to be modern, and all knowing. A little humility would serve us well in this regard, I think.

    ~Dave
    Last edited by ~Dave; December 13th, 2008 at 12:56 PM.

  10. #570
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Again, you're misunderstanding scientific method. The conclusion scientist may or may not draw from what they see, are different from what they can prove. Evolution isn't an idea dreamt up from what we can see, it's something that can be proven through testing, and has been, over and over again.

  11. #571
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Again, you're misunderstanding scientific method. The conclusion scientist may or may not draw from what they see, are different from what they can prove. Evolution isn't an idea dreamt up from what we can see, it's something that can be proven through testing, and has been, over and over again.
    Not as far as I am concerned. I doubt evolution science has ever watched one species change into another one. Maybe you can cause mutation in a lab, but mutations may not be the same thing as evolution. I won't be convinced until evolutionists can take life all the way back to it's first appearance on this planet, and trace every evolutionary development from that point to species in existence today. And not induced in a lab, but actually seeing it happen in the real world naturally. I want to see one member of a species reproduce a first ever new species, in the natural world.

    Everything I have seen on science TV has said that life began on this planet as a single cell organism. This supposedly happened by just the right organic elements coming together under just the right conditions for this "miracle" to happen. Non-living matter becoming living. And all life we have today evolved from this beginning. And this originated in the oceans. And gradually different cells combined into colonies in such ways that the first mammals crawled out of the water onto dry land. And from this evolved all we know today. I am willing to believe this if someone can tell me the process by which this happens. So explain to me the process by which non-living matter becomes living matter, and we can go from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave View Post
    Not as far as I am concerned. I doubt evolution science has ever watched one species change into another one. Maybe you can cause mutation in a lab, but mutations may not be the same thing as evolution.
    Well what can I say, it is. If a population of microbes mutate a genetic change that is advantageous, then the microbes have evolved, that's what evolution is.

    I won't be convinced until evolutionists can take life all the way back to it's first appearance on this planet, and trace every evolutionary development from that point to species in existence today.
    Why? That's akin to not believing the theory of gravitation unless scientist have evidence of every stone ever fallen, it's illogical. Why else would species be appearing and disappearing one after the other, showing a clear genetic progression, if not for evolution when what we see fits the theory so perfectly? Why would evolution be happening now, but for some reason not then? I suppose it's impossible to really prove what happened in the past without a shadow of a doubt, but this applies too all science, why is evolution always singled out? My guess would be because it contradicts people's religions, and if it didn't we wouldn't be having this conversation.

    And not induced in a lab, but actually seeing it happen in the real world naturally.
    Who said anything about inducing mutations? That happen on their own.

    I want to see one member of a species reproduce a first ever new species, in the natural world.
    If you're talking about single celled organism, that's already been done. If you're talking about large animals then that's impossible, the time scales that are involved with the evolution of complex organisms are many times your lifetime.

    Everything I have seen on science TV has said that life began on this planet as a single cell organism. This supposedly happened by just the right organic elements coming together under just the right conditions for this "miracle" to happen. Non-living matter becoming living. And all life we have today evolved from this beginning. And this originated in the oceans. And gradually different cells combined into colonies in such ways that the first mammals crawled out of the water onto dry land. And from this evolved all we know today.
    That's speculation based on the science. The process exists, whether it happened or not is impossible to know without a time machine, but if it happens now why wouldn't it then?

    I am willing to believe this if someone can tell me the process by which this happens. So explain to me the process by which non-living matter becomes living matter, and we can go from there.
    That's got nothing to do with evolution, what you're talking about is called abiogenesis. Evolution theory explains how one species evolves into another, it's got nothing to do with how life started.
    Last edited by jenks; December 13th, 2008 at 02:41 PM.

  13. #573
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Well what can I say, it is. If a population of microbes mutate a genetic change that is advantageous, then the microbes have evolved, that's what evolution is.



    What you're asking isn't science.



    Who said anything about inducing mutations? That happen on their own.



    If you're talking about single celled organism, that's already been done. If you're talking about large animals then that's impossible, the time scales that are involved with the evolution of complex organisms are many times your lifetime.



    That's speculation based on the science. The process exists, whether it happened or not is impossible to know without a time machine, but if it happens now why wouldn't it then?



    That's got nothing to do with evolution, what you're talking about is called abiogenesis. Evolution theory explains how one species evolves into another, it's got nothing to do with how life started.
    You sound like you really know what you're talking about. So I defer to you on this. You might be right that I just don't understand the subject, and therefore just confuse the issue. So I will spend more time listing, and less time talking. Thanks for staying with me on this.

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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    No probs

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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post
    As I said before, one has to ask God for guidance and wisdom. If Satan exists, then God must as well. Evil isn't evil without goodness. Goodness and righteousness can't be without evil. Therefor, if Satan exists, so does God. If you pray to Him by name and and ask for guidance, He will hear you.


    The reason religion and the Bible are necessary is because even when people have good intentions they can still be led astray. The rules laid down in the Bible are like the laws different governments have to help make their people's lives better. They're easy guidelines for when people are confused or lost. Like ~Dave said before, the alternative to a standard code of conduct is anarchy. You obviously can't trust each and every person to agree with each other on what's right or wrong.

    And God does respect people who do good for the sake of doing good. The thing is, God is all things good. This "good" you speak of is God. So, if someone simply doesn't believe in God for lack of evidence, but tries their best to be a good person and lives their lives for the betterment of humanity, God will certainly have more mercy on them than on those who do horrible things in the name of Him. It's only because it's so much harder to know what is right or wrong and to be led astray than people care to think that God teaches us to strive towards Him and follow His Word.

    So... am I making sense? I'm not feeling well tonight and I can't think as clearly as usual... so just keep on asking if you're still confused.



    As ~Dave said, there you go. You had free choice of will and made your choice. It certainly doesn't defeat the purpose of free will, it is a choice to follow God's teachings. You may say, "Well, if I had free will and if God really respected that, then why is he going to send me to hell for not choosing Him?" That's the thing, hell isn't exactly a punishment, it's more of a consequence. Hell isn't as much an actual physical place as it is simple separation from God. Heaven is being with God, hell is being away. God is ultimate joy, being without God is ultimate suffering.

    And that brings me back to what I said about God having mercy on those who do good for the sake of good. Even though they don't believe in God, they're actually doing His will anyway. So He will have mercy on them and give them... when they die, it will be clear that He actually does exist. So those who were good people but didn't believe will have one last chance to accept His love and mercy.



    I'm Catholic and certainly do say the Hail Mary. But I'd like to make one thing clear: no Catholic will tell you that they are worshiping the Mother of God as they should be God. The Hail Mary and other prayers to saints and such are forms of asking for their intersession, not forms of worship to them.

    "Hail Mary, full of grace, of Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy whom, Jesus": Just a greeting.
    "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.": Just a request for her to intercede to her Son for us.

    See? We're just asking her to pray for us to her Son. Remember the wedding at Cana? When Mary told Jesus they had run out of wine? At first, He seemed reluctant to do anything about it. But Mary told the servants to do what He said, then He did turn the water to wine to please His Mother. That's why we ask her to pray for us, because as God's mother, she is the most influential person one can ask to pray for them.



    Old. And.... not really. How is Genesis definitive?

    It's the New Testament that's definitive. And a lot of it is historically accurate. Well, all of it is, but I mean that even non-believers can see some of it.
    Ohne, I do have something against Catholic practices, as praying to saints is not biblical. In fact, the Bible makes no distinction between the Catholic "Saints" and saints as refering to believers in general. As well, the New Testament clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. As well, the N.T. also clearly states that we may come boldly unto the throne of grace. It mentions nothing about Mary. She was a vessel used by God. She is not God's mother, but the mother of Christ. Because Christ is fully God and fully man, and yet God is spirit and not man, Mary is the mother of Christ. However, Christ himself never gave his mother any special recognition. Remember when Christ was told that His family was waiting for Him? He pointed to His disciples and said "Behold, my mother and brethren." And because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, we have direct access to the Father through Christ Jesus. We do not need any other mediator. And, God certainly rewards the good done by men, works without salvation through Christ is meaningless. One must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. Hell is a consequence. But remember, there is a punishment. the lake of fire is a spiritual place of punishment. Those not written in the book of life will not enter into Heaven. The lake of fire is not merely a place absent from God, but a place of perpetual, eternal torment.

    Oh, and when the Bible says that God made every animal after it's own kind, I think it actually means it. Now, the OT does not distinguish between a whale and a fish, but describes the animals as the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, the cattle, and the creeping things. Now, I think it's pretty clear that each animal familia was created as its own kind. And while we do know that the DNA of certain species diversifies and differentiates over time, we do not know for certain whether one type of animal can turn into another, like a reptile into a bird. The Bible clearly distinguishes the two. As well, the bible clearly says that God made man as man, not as a primate-like animal that became homo sapiens.

    Also, I will say that those outside of Christ don't necessarily do God's will. God will direct circumstances so that His will is accomplished. That's what Paul meant when He wrote, "All things work together for good to them that love God, that are called according to His purpose." That means that even the evil that people do, will in the end work together to achieve God's will. that's why we speak of God's perfect will and God's permissive will.

    The Bible is the divinely inspired record of God's love and righteousness. It contains everything man needs to live holy. Sure, the Bible was written by men. But it is in no wise just a rip off from other religions. Christianity, and our holidays were set up to replace the Roman pagan days, (and it is suspected that the concept of the disciples and other Biblical followers of Christ as "Saints" was meant to replace the Roman gods and goddesses).

    The New Testament was written during the Roman Empire, around 60-69 A.D, because that's when the Apostles were aging and msot of their missionary work in reaching the lost and establishing churches was finished. The OT stretches back to around 4000 BC, I believe, following the Hebrew escape from bondage. So, the Bible in it's entirety was completed over a period of 4000 years. Now it wasn't collectively called the Bible then.
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  16. #576
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post
    As I said before, one has to ask God for guidance and wisdom. If Satan exists, then God must as well. Evil isn't evil without goodness. Goodness and righteousness can't be without evil. Therefor, if Satan exists, so does God. If you pray to Him by name and and ask for guidance, He will hear you.

    Does this apply to every decision making process? Surely if someone is that literal then they effectively have "no free will" at all and have divorced themselves from any kind of thought process.

    If that is called living we may as well be robots.
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    Quote Originally Posted by Myn MacGeek, Third Sentinel View Post

    The bible doesn't contradict evolution at all. And it doesn't even imply that the world is "X" number of years. That's merely one interpritation.[/COLOR]

    out of pure curiosity, what are your beliefs on evolution myn? i won't criticize you if they aren't the same as mine
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    Default Re: Religious Beliefs

    I'm fuzzy on the free will thing as well. They say God is all knowing. So He knows what I'm going to do every second of my entire life. So, if my actions are known before I make them, then how do I have free will? Don't I have to do exactly what God knows I will do? I cannot choose to do anything else? Definitely not clear on this one either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Dave
    I'm fuzzy on the free will thing as well. They say God is all knowing. So He knows what I'm going to do every second of my entire life. So, if my actions are known before I make them, then how do I have free will? Don't I have to do exactly what God knows I will do? I cannot choose to do anything else? Definitely not clear on this one either.
    I Don't think it is the possible omniscience of a god that precludes free will, but it's omnipotence. Having a god know everything in advance doesn't effect the decisions we make. But if the god is also omnipotent, it would mean that everything that happens is the will of this god.

    To me the existence of free will is more about us being able to make conscious decisions. To what extent are the decisions we make the result of processes in our brain that we aren't aware of? When we make a decision is it because are we truly free in our choice, or are we limited by certain "programs" in our brain that only allow a limited number of choices?

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