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Observations on infantry weapons and equipment in Stargate SG-1

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    Observations on infantry weapons and equipment in Stargate SG-1

    Hello. I'm new here, only just joined, and I realize that the subject may have been discussed to death here, but I feel an irresistable urge to share some thoughts I've had while watching the series.

    The Tau'ri/Earth appears to be the only race in the universe with a decently equipped and trained infantry. The rest, for one reason or another, are obsessed with building starships and fancy superweapons, and give no thought whatsoever to their ground troops. I mean, look at the Goa'uld and their Jaffa armies: their weapons and equipment haven't changed over at least five thousand Earth years. In the episode when SG-1 travels in time back to Ancient Egypt, we still see the Jaffa armed with the exact same staff weapons that they wield in the 21 century. Their armor is medieval-style metal suits, easily penetrated by 9mm handguns. Their arsenal of weapons is terribly limited and totally inadequate. The inaccuracy of staff weapons was well demonstrated (hell, I am still wondering where the sights are on that thing)- but that is only the tip of the iceberg. Their rate of fire is barely a match for World war II-era semi-auto battle rifles like the Garand and the SVT, they are unwieldy in close quarters, they cannot be suppressed or fitted with any accessories. The staff cannons are remarkably ineffective as well compared to their Tau'ri equivalents; being energy weapons, they can only do damage in case of a direct impact, whereas an Earth cannon shell can inflict tremendous casualties in a wide area through fragmentation. The Goa'uld armies have no mortar-like indirect fire weapons, no dedicated anti-aircraft weapons, no combat vehicles, no night vision devices, no radios (they call for backup using HORNS, for God's sake!). They don't know what a sniper is, either. Most importantly, they have no equivalent of a machine gun. s any wonder, that the ancient Egyptians were able to overthrow Ra while wielding bronze age weapons? They probably just overran them in a single cavalry or chariot attack: no Jaffa regiment has the firepower, the protection or the mobility to withstand that. Basically, without vast superiority in numbers and air support, the Jaffa are dead meat against pretty much anyone.

    Their air support... Let's face it, the death gliders have been easy target practice for the Tau'ri throughout the series. Stinger missiles shoot them down like nobody's business. O'Neill even managed to shoot one down with a 40mm grenade launcher in "The Fifth Man". Try that with an F16... hell, try that with a World war II Spitfire. The Al'kesh fly ridiculously low and drop energy bombs that, again, produce very little damage outside of the point of impact (they make decent bunker busters though, judging by the damage they did to Tok'ra tunnels).

    There's a total lack of guided weaponry, by the way, it appears that only the Tau'ri and the Ancients were smart enough to come up with "fire and forget" weapon systems. It is as if all the space-faring races suffer from a "Tollan mentality" to a greater or lesser degree, and if they ever develop a new combat technology it is only after the Tau'ri give them the idea. Why is that, I wonder? Does the advanced technology corrupt the mind and makes these races too lazy and complacent?
    If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

    #2
    Great Post!
    The part of the F-16 makes me wonder why we didn't used regular fighters against gliders. Before we had the F-302's.

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      #3
      IN discussing the military culture of a race, we have to look at the purpose for which that force has been created for and the wars and battles that shaped their mindset. The Jaffa, are for all intents and purposes, internal security troops and bodyguards and enforcers for the system lords. Most of their duties are spent on garrison duty, putting down slave rebellions and fighting one another. It would explain their unusually high level of martials ats profciency and skill in hand-to-hand combat.

      Slaves are the workforce of the gould empire. You don't want them dead, merely a few dead and the rest cowed back into submission. Weapons that killed the slaves outright are no use. Punches and kicks that give them painful brusies are more intimidating.

      In this context, staff weapons are an effective meelee weapon, good for hitting slaves. Their training also seem to be individualistic in nature. The Jaffa armies may have number in millions but it is doubtful if they could mobilize and manuever their armies in terms of modern day strategy. A First Prime probably selected a few hundred of their best warriors to conduct warfare much like the napoleon era, regimented companies in squares.

      The same concept goes into their death gliders. The death gliders are designed to terrorises civilain populations . They are ground attack and bombers against enemies with no air capability, since the vassal worlds of the gould were usually at either bronze or iron age weapons. The gilders were not designed for air-to-air combat. The jaffa probably have no concept of air-to-air combat just as soldiers 40 years ago couldn't visualize information warfare.

      The alkesh are probably small-scale transport vessels for the minor gould who couldn't afford their own hataks. But the power-hungry mindset of the gould meant that they tried to weaponize or militarized the alkesh.

      We must remember, evrything the gould have, they stole all of it form others. They were aquatic snakes that, through some evolutionary freak accident, could enter and control the brains of large mammals. Their language, their culture, their scociety, arts, way of lige, government were taken from the past civilsations of earth. So were the human subjects of the empire as well as their jaffa ares.

      Ever noticed that the staff weapons really looked like spears? The gould probably saw the egyptians weilding bronze tipped spears and based a weapon design on that.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Vimy View Post
        Great Post!
        The part of the F-16 makes me wonder why we didn't used regular fighters against gliders. Before we had the F-302's.

        I would have love to see that We see a F-16 take down Baal's Al'kesh in session 9. Can't remember which ep

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          #5
          ^ I think thats s10's
          Spoiler:
          Insiders.


          And I fully agree with you Womble. I think O'Neill said it best, "this *raising a staff into the air* is a weapon of fear,....this *raising a p90 into the air* is a weapon of war".

          The Jaffa and their weapons are meant to intimidate their enemies and their slaves. In a war, each side is as disadvantaged so it comes out even. Also, I think the goa'uld rely mainly on ships to win their wars. why put troops on the ground when you can bombard the planet from space! This is why we are so good. Our past has directly lead to our military supremacy. We have been fighting and competing amongst ourselves for so long that we have had to advance to stay ahead of our competition and enemies. We have had to become better fighters and develop better weapons.

          I hope that made sense, im a little tired!
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            #6
            It was nice to see even an F16 can take down an Alkesh, that leads me to think that if the Goa'uld come to us with gliders and Al'kesh they are royally screwed, an F22 has a 38:1 (or 36) K/D ratio vs the F16, combine that with F15's and we take out an entire armada of em.

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              #7
              Originally posted by tauriprivatesoldier View Post
              IN discussing the military culture of a race, we have to look at the purpose for which that force has been created for and the wars and battles that shaped their mindset. The Jaffa, are for all intents and purposes, internal security troops and bodyguards and enforcers for the system lords. Most of their duties are spent on garrison duty, putting down slave rebellions and fighting one another. It would explain their unusually high level of martials ats profciency and skill in hand-to-hand combat.
              But it would not explain the absence of armored vehicles and weapons with high rate of fire. The psychological effect of advanced weapons is not enough to put down a decent insurgency by even the most primitive tribes. Let's not forget that it was the Maxim machine gun, not the cannon, that enabled the European colonization of Africa, giving small forces of the Europeans the ability to withstand human wave attacks and repel ambushes by the vastly superior numbers of African natives.

              Slaves are the workforce of the gould empire. You don't want them dead, merely a few dead and the rest cowed back into submission. Weapons that killed the slaves outright are no use.
              You've just made a good case for designing automatic zats- but not for the retention of staff weapons.

              Punches and kicks that give them painful brusies are more intimidating.
              Punches and kicks means melee combat. In melee combat, the enslaved primitives would have much better chances against the Jaffa, as any farm tool could be wielded as a weapon just as effectively as a staff weapon.

              Not to mention that a rifle's butt does the punching quite fine, and can even sport a bayonet if things get more serious.

              The Jaffa armies may have number in millions but it is doubtful if they could mobilize and manuever their armies in terms of modern day strategy.
              With horns as means of communication? You bet they couldn't. Not even the ring transporters and the beam technology would help them much.

              The same concept goes into their death gliders. The death gliders are designed to terrorises civilain populations . They are ground attack and bombers against enemies with no air capability, since the vassal worlds of the gould were usually at either bronze or iron age weapons. The gilders were not designed for air-to-air combat. The jaffa probably have no concept of air-to-air combat just as soldiers 40 years ago couldn't visualize information warfare.
              That would make sense if there were no other space-faring races in the galaxy that could engage the Goa'uld in air-to-air or space combat. This isn't the case. There are other races who could field formidable air- and spacecraft in the same class as death gliders, and who have fought and defeated the Goa'uld before. Besides, even the internal fighting among the Goa'uld should have led to the adancing of the death glider-on-death glider capabilities.

              By the way, can death gliders hover the way Earth helicopters do? Can they engage targets beyond the line of sight?

              The alkesh are probably small-scale transport vessels for the minor gould who couldn't afford their own hataks. But the power-hungry mindset of the gould meant that they tried to weaponize or militarized the alkesh.
              Okay, suppose they modified transport craft for bombing, the way both sides of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war modified their DC-3 Dakota planes. But in that case, where are the Goa'uld's dedicated bombers? They can't rely on orbital bombardment alone- it works if you want to destroy a city, but not if your goal is air support for your ground troops.

              We must remember, evrything the gould have, they stole all of it form others. They were aquatic snakes that, through some evolutionary freak accident, could enter and control the brains of large mammals. Their language, their culture, their scociety, arts, way of lige, government were taken from the past civilsations of earth.
              One would have thought they could also steal some ideas for tactics and strategies, but alas...
              If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

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                #8
                Interesting observations actually though one has to consider that if you the enemy has space superiority then it doesnt matter if the defenders have the best troops in ten galaxies, they would be destroyed. In the universe that is Stargate, alien races have no objection to orbital bombardment though in universes like Starwars its more frowned upon as the world could be put to good use.

                Also, remember that most battles the Goa'uld fought were against fellow Goa'uld or primitive human species with the rare advanced alien race that forced them away. Though to be fair, they had to put the 'fear of god' into the minds of Jaffa who believed that quite a lot of their masters work was magic and if they were explained that a shield generator protected their master rather then being some divine will of their god then they would have second thoughts on serving them. Though its not always the case. [Spoiler]The Lucian Alliance seems like an amalgam of Earth and Goa'uld tech with the episode Bounty in season 10 showing bounty hunters using an energy firing sniper rifle.[.Spoiler]


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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Womble View Post
                  But it would not explain the absence of armored vehicles and weapons with high rate of fire. The psychological effect of advanced weapons is not enough to put down a decent insurgency by even the most primitive tribes. Let's not forget that it was the Maxim machine gun, not the cannon, that enabled the European colonization of Africa, giving small forces of the Europeans the ability to withstand human wave attacks and repel ambushes by the vastly superior numbers of African natives.


                  You've just made a good case for designing automatic zats- but not for the retention of staff weapons.


                  Punches and kicks means melee combat. In melee combat, the enslaved primitives would have much better chances against the Jaffa, as any farm tool could be wielded as a weapon just as effectively as a staff weapon.

                  Not to mention that a rifle's butt does the punching quite fine, and can even sport a bayonet if things get more serious.


                  With horns as means of communication? You bet they couldn't. Not even the ring transporters and the beam technology would help them much.


                  That would make sense if there were no other space-faring races in the galaxy that could engage the Goa'uld in air-to-air or space combat. This isn't the case. There are other races who could field formidable air- and spacecraft in the same class as death gliders, and who have fought and defeated the Goa'uld before. Besides, even the internal fighting among the Goa'uld should have led to the adancing of the death glider-on-death glider capabilities.

                  By the way, can death gliders hover the way Earth helicopters do? Can they engage targets beyond the line of sight?


                  Okay, suppose they modified transport craft for bombing, the way both sides of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war modified their DC-3 Dakota planes. But in that case, where are the Goa'uld's dedicated bombers? They can't rely on orbital bombardment alone- it works if you want to destroy a city, but not if your goal is air support for your ground troops.


                  One would have thought they could also steal some ideas for tactics and strategies, but alas...
                  WELL SAID
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                    #10
                    Just because the gould have fought against advanced races like the Asguard dosn't necessarily mean that they would upgrade or advance their military capabilities. Teal was Apophis' First Prime for several decades, yet he had never heard of the Asguard or seen a Asguard face-to-face, this despite the fact that the System Lords had a Protected Planets Treaty with them for quite a few centuries.

                    Apparently, the gould don't tell the jaffa anything. Besides, in "'The Enemy within''', Teal''C said he knew nothing of the science of gould weapons. Which makes sense. The Jaffa are still slaves, above all other slaves but below the gould.

                    The Gould are not anti-progress. However, from their point of view, to increase the level of education of their human slaves, to increase the level of standard of leaving, to have military efficency and productivity is utterly irrelevant.

                    There is a downside to advancing your military capabilities. The most sophisticated weapon systems are, the more education and knowledge the users and operators will require. Will the gould really let their jaffa armies have real education and scientific knowledge and end up being overthrown by them?

                    Meelee combat refers to fighting your opponent with a staff. The Jaffa staff weapon is over 2 meters long. A person with experience weilding such a comparatively long staff has very different abilities from a farmer picking up a farming tool like a hovel or a sickle and charging with it.

                    Weielding a 2 meter long staff requires finess and martial arts training and coordination, to ensure you don't end up trippling over yourselves. I take it you guys seen the episode "The Warrior".In terms of handheld weapons, the longer the reach of your weapon, the more dealier you are. In the hands of someone who knows how to use it, a staff weapon is far more dealier than a hovel in the hands of a charging farmer.

                    When I was talking about punches and kicks, I was refering stricly to "The Way Of The Empty Hand".

                    When I was talking about cowering the population into submission, I was talking about the staff weapons, not the Zats. I was referring to their inaccuracy and ability to terrorise.

                    Death gliders do hover, as seen from the prototype model of the X-301 as well Bratac's needle threader.

                    Deception is a form of strategy, from the art of war. They implanted a naquadah bomb in the heart of cassandra, they sent a naquadah laden asteroid hurtling towards our planet and they practised divide and conquer on us, the tokra and the jaffa

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      But it would not explain the absence of armored vehicles and weapons with high rate of fire. The psychological effect of advanced weapons is not enough to put down a decent insurgency by even the most primitive tribes.
                      That is something i always wondered too. Other than those tripod mounted BASW (big ass staff weapons) they never really had anything else. And Staff weapons had as high a rate of fire as someone could push the 'trigger'.. Look at season 8, when the Jaffa of Molak were assaulting that camp Tealc and Ishta were in. Real high rate of fire imo.

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      You've just made a good case for designing automatic zats- but not for the retention of staff weapons.
                      Interesting point, but imo they were kept for their infighting amongst the SLs..

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      Punches and kicks means melee combat. In melee combat, the enslaved primitives would have much better chances against the Jaffa, as any farm tool could be wielded as a weapon just as effectively as a staff weapon.
                      True, but the Jaffa we have seen got good training in hand to hand and staff fighting, so i feel that would even things out.

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      With horns as means of communication? You bet they couldn't. Not even the ring transporters and the beam technology would help them much.
                      I always thought that was stupid...

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      That would make sense if there were no other space-faring races in the galaxy that could engage the Goa'uld in air-to-air or space combat. This isn't the case. There are other races who could field formidable air- and spacecraft in the same class as death gliders, and who have fought and defeated the Goa'uld before. Besides, even the internal fighting among the Goa'uld should have led to the adancing of the death glider-on-death glider capabilities.
                      And as we have seen, they do tend to go to glider-glider combats... though i always wondered why only 4 made a squadron..?

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      By the way, can death gliders hover the way Earth helicopters do? Can they engage targets beyond the line of sight?
                      In that ep in season 3 (or was it 4) where they showed the X301 they did hover. Also in 2 other eps, we saw gliders hover right in front of the gate while our team was fleeing.

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      Okay, suppose they modified transport craft for bombing, the way both sides of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war modified their DC-3 Dakota planes. But in that case, where are the Goa'uld's dedicated bombers? They can't rely on orbital bombardment alone- it works if you want to destroy a city, but not if your goal is air support for your ground troops.
                      Don't know. But for a bomber, the Alkeshes suck the big one. Heck imo if a bomber has to get within 100 feet of the ground, they are not doing their job.

                      Originally posted by Womble View Post
                      One would have thought they could also steal some ideas for tactics and strategies, but alas...
                      LOL... Well we know they did that in Heroes, taking our idea of a MALP... And in Rules of engagements they had an entire training camp for this. So maybe they were learning, but not as fast as they needed to..

                      Originally posted by tauriprivatesoldier View Post
                      Teal was Apophis' First Prime for several decades, yet he had never heard of the Asguard or seen a Asguard face-to-face, this despite the fact that the System Lords had a Protected Planets Treaty with them for quite a few centuries.
                      Actually he did knew of them, cause it was he that said Cimerra was a protected planet, and that all gou'ald/jaffa were told of the gate sequence to them to stay away. Lastly he also knew what the asgard ships were.

                      Originally posted by tauriprivatesoldier View Post
                      There is a downside to advancing your military capabilities. The most sophisticated weapon systems are, the more education and knowledge the users and operators will require. Will the gould really let their jaffa armies have real education and scientific knowledge and end up being overthrown by them?
                      Valid point.. we know from our own history, that some 'empires' got over thrown cause they trained their people too well..

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                        #12
                        You have to keep in mind that all the gua'uld weaponary is meant to scare and intimidate people. The wars they're fighting are against eachother and are oftenly ha'tak versus ha'tak, or concern a planet. Planets have very small populations, often only a couple of thousand people / jaffa. Thus the need for an army the size of for example the forces of the US in Iraq is little. As said before in the topic weapons are to intimidate.

                        The primitive things are left over from from the movie, and keep the show to what it is right now. If you give it a high tech look, you'll be better off watching startrek. I love the combination between Saving Private Ryan and Discovery channel and thats why it is a pity SG-1 is gone, Atlantis is way way way more Scifi-ish and completely lost the history theme SG-1 used to have.

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                          #13
                          Well I think Gliders serve their purpose. Teal'c was able to shoot down an Al'kesh w/ one. The reason our fighters are superior is because Jets have been the pinnacle of human technology for decades. All of our efforts have gone into developing them, and therefore, they should be among the best around.

                          I think the Al'kesh is great. It's nimble, and powerful. It has two primary weapons, and great accuracy. The precision strikes that you're referring to were hit by the Al'kesh's high-yield energy weapon. For large scale explosions it would use a Naquadah bomb (seen in S10).
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                            #14
                            Originally posted by garhkal View Post
                            That is something i always wondered too. Other than those tripod mounted BASW (big ass staff weapons) they never really had anything else.
                            They seemed to have hand-carried heavy versions, like the one Teal'c shot down Tanith' Al'kesh with (grrr, I am growing tired of typing all the apostrophes).

                            And Staff weapons had as high a rate of fire as someone could push the 'trigger'.
                            Like I said, the same ROF as semi-automatic Earth weapons. Which is fine... for an accurate weapon, which a staff weapon isn't. And it is still not adequate to hold back a human wave.


                            Interesting point, but imo they were kept for their infighting amongst the SLs..
                            I think they were kept for lack of an alternative. I imagine the Goa'uld just never really cared what their troops carry. That's why the Jaffa were so obsessed with training- when your guns have been obsolete for 5000 years, you better do your part well

                            True, but the Jaffa we have seen got good training in hand to hand and staff fighting, so i feel that would even things out.
                            In a mass melee- no it wouldn't. Even the best of them wouldn't be able to do much if outnumbered, say, ten to one. Especially if there's not enough space to swing a staff.

                            And as we have seen, they do tend to go to glider-glider combats...
                            Yes, and they dogfight the way the Tau'ri did sixty years ago. Compare that to modern air combat that's all about long range radars and rockets engaging targets well beyond the line of sight.

                            (Hmm, how would heat-seeking missiles work against foes armed with energy weapons? Would the plasma blasts work as a distraction for the guidance system, or would the rocket only sight itself in better right at the enemy's firing staff cannons?)

                            Don't know. But for a bomber, the Alkeshes suck the big one. Heck imo if a bomber has to get within 100 feet of the ground, they are not doing their job.
                            Or they are not used to being fired upon.

                            LOL... Well we know they did that in Heroes, taking our idea of a MALP... And in Rules of engagements they had an entire training camp for this. So maybe they were learning, but not as fast as they needed to..
                            Well, it's been five thousand years. About time they woke up, I suppose

                            Valid point.. we know from our own history, that some 'empires' got over thrown cause they trained their people too well..
                            I find it pretty difficult to remember an empire overthrown by people who knew too much. Most of the past empires fell to either technologically and scientifically inferior barbarians, or to the pitchfork-wielding mobs of their own downtrodden underclass.

                            Originally posted by Varrok
                            Planets have very small populations, often only a couple of thousand people / jaffa. Thus the need for an army the size of for example the forces of the US in Iraq is little.
                            Hmm, that is a very good point. Most planets do seem to have population in the thousands, and smaller groups are easier to intimidate.

                            The primitive things are left over from from the movie, and keep the show to what it is right now. If you give it a high tech look, you'll be better off watching startrek.
                            Well yes. I'll tell you even more- the Jaffa in Stargate have many parallels with the enslaved Black Africans from "real" history, which is why so many Jaffa characters were played by Black or minority actors (off the top of my head- Teal'c, his wife and son, his friend Fro'tac who marries his wife, Jolan and Haikon of the Sodan, Rak'nor, etc.). The staff weapons were deliberately shaped to look "tribal", that's why they resemble spears. But isn't it that much more fun to try and rationalize things in the context of the Stargate universe?

                            I loved Stargate's use of history, by the way. Very, very clever. Atlantis had lost that dimension, and it's a great shame.
                            If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Vimy View Post
                              Great Post!
                              The part of the F-16 makes me wonder why we didn't used regular fighters against gliders. Before we had the F-302's.
                              Because unlike the F-16 the F-302 posesses the following:

                              ~ Inertial Dampeners
                              ~ life support systems
                              ~ Naqudria Hyperdrive Engine

                              Therefore the only way F-16 would have had effect against gliders is if they were in combat in a planets atmosphere. That also means no fighter escort for Battlecruisers

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