Phantom Heavy Raider...or real? (Malestrom)

[DaDornta]

Okay guys...

I was watching Malestrom last night for the 3rd time and I noticed that when Lee finally gets a visual ID on Kara's viper, for a brief--almost 1 second shot we see not only Kara's ship--but another one in the same frame. Both ships are to be seen from "Lee's perspective", not Kara's.

Is this a clue that the heavy raider was indeed real--and that for a split second Lee was able to see it along with Kara's viper?

Here:



Those are clearly not the engines from Kara's viper...her viper and the raider "come and go" in the clouds for a couple of seconds in that shot of the scene.

Whad'ya think guys? This might tie in to how Kara will somehow make a miraculous re-appearnce in the 4th season?

[Ouroboros]

Something shot a hole in her cockpit in the end so at least that one had to have been real.

[Berg417448]

According to RDM , Apollo never saw a raider. Scroll down through his answers to questions here in this thread:


http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2267125

He also states that the damage to Kara's viper was deliberately left vague.

[DeltaWhiskey]

Those are clearly not the engines from Kara's viper...her viper and the raider "come and go" in the clouds for a couple of seconds in that shot of the scene.

Indeed, I would think it would be difficult to see Kara's engines from within Kara's cockpit. That's a Mk. II canopy, Lee was driving a Mk. VII.

[Alfff]

i was thinking that the raider was real and its mission was to somehow make starbuck awaken to who she really was with some mental connection or something... next season she will wake up alive somewhere else...

[tucker9477]

it's not over, ron moore.
not by a long shot!

[Marauder359]

That's a Mk. II canopy, Lee was driving a Mk. VII.

And?

I believe by the point of that screencap Starbuck's viper already had a hole in the cockpit. So, that pretty well sets it up there, doesn't it?

Either they put in the wrong canopy for their effects shot, thus showing a MK II for Apollo, or they were showing us a third person perspective from within Kara's viper. If that's the case, then the hole isn't real and the Cylon isn't real. If it's an effects mistake, then it's still a third party perspective shot above Lee and the Cylon definitely is real. There'd be no reason to show Starbuck's hallucination (if that's what it was) from any perspective other than her own.

But I'm curious if this is the image right before Starbuck coming into view... if that's the case, then regardless of any effects error, this would be Apollo's ship.

DaDornta, can you confirm which screencap this is, and maybe show us another with this same canopy showing an external Viper?

Because if we get this canopy and a view of Starbuck's viper, then we know the Cylon was real... there'd be no reason for it not to be then.

[DeltaWhiskey]

And?

I believe by the point of that screencap Starbuck's viper already had a hole in the cockpit. So, that pretty well sets it up there, doesn't it?

Either they put in the wrong canopy for their effects shot, thus showing a MK II for Apollo, or they were showing us a third person perspective from within Kara's viper. If that's the case, then the hole isn't real and the Cylon isn't real. If it's an effects mistake, then it's still a third party perspective shot above Lee and the Cylon definitely is real. There'd be no reason to show Starbuck's hallucination (if that's what it was) from any perspective other than her own.

But I'm curious if this is the image right before Starbuck coming into view... if that's the case, then regardless of any effects error, this would be Apollo's ship.

DaDornta, can you confirm which screencap this is, and maybe show us another with this same canopy showing an external Viper?

Because if we get this canopy and a view of Starbuck's viper, then we know the Cylon was real... there'd be no reason for it not to be then.

The shot in question is several minutes before the hole in the cockpit, while Lee still has no visual on Kara, or the Raider, if it is real. (I'm not saying it's not, just that this shot doesn't prove anything.)

This shot switches back and forth between Kara's face, and Kara's viewpoint.

The only time we see Kara's Viper and the Raider at the same time, it is a third person shot, over the "shoulder" of Lee's Viper, right when he makes visual contact with her. Take as you will the evidence of a third person shot.

My point is, Lee did not see it. As Berg pointed out, this is by RDM's own words. Lee also never mentions it. Galactica might have been interested in knowing if he had, maybe? He never saw it, whether or not it really was there.

[Bl4de]

According to RDM , Apollo never saw a raider. Scroll down through his answers to questions here in this thread:

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?showtopic=2267125

No, of course Apollo didn't see the raider. He would have reported to Adama had he seen a raider when Kara's ship blew up, this leaves him thinking she was just breaking under the pressure.

But, RDM did not say the viewer did not see a Raider. He said Apollo didn't see it.

Later in the episode we see the camera outside Lee's viper as he's talking, before he sights her the raider flies away from her ship.



The raider existed, he just missed his opportunity to see it, he was too busy paying attention to Kara's ship and the raider flew the opposite direction. Why would they bother showing the raider from lee's point of view if not to show it was real? Besides, we know she's not gone for good, and she can't be a cylon (she had a mother that killed toasters in the first war? HELLO? she's NOT a cylon). So that means the ship must have helped her in some way.

And those are definately bullets that hit her cockpit, they were blue tracers, particles in the atmosphere don't look like tracer rounds.

[Alfff]

appollo did see the raider.. he adknowledged it over the radio but the signal was scrambled so galactica didnt hear it

[DaDornta]

No, of course Apollo didn't see the raider. He would have reported to Adama had he seen a raider when Kara's ship blew up, this leaves him thinking she was just breaking under the pressure.

But, RDM did not say the viewer did not see a Raider. He said Apollo didn't see it.

Later in the episode we see the camera outside Lee's viper as he's talking, before he sights her the raider flies away from her ship.



The raider existed, he just missed his opportunity to see it, he was too busy paying attention to Kara's ship and the raider flew the opposite direction. Why would they bother showing the raider from lee's point of view if not to show it was real? Besides, we know she's not gone for good, and she can't be a cylon (she had a mother that killed toasters in the first war? HELLO? she's NOT a cylon). So that means the ship must have helped her in some way.

And those are definately bullets that hit her cockpit, they were blue tracers, particles in the atmosphere don't look like tracer rounds.

Okay, okay guys...

Now THAT is the screen capture I *WANTED* to be able to post!!!

From Apolo's vantage point (and ours as well) we clealy see the engines of TWO craft in the clouds...

Perhaps the directors set it up to construe ambiguity...

I belive that Lee did see the radier -- briefly...he probably thought it was due to stress or emotional anxiety, however, which answers the question of why he never said he "saw" it.

I don't think the producers/directors/writers would have intentionally shot that scene unless trying to hint at the very real posibility that the raider was actually there.

My bad for the wrong screen capture...I tried my best!

[DaDornta]

appollo did see the raider.. he adknowledged it over the radio but the signal was scrambled so galactica didnt hear it

Does anyone have the script for when he sights Kara in the clouds? I think he says somthing to the effect of "Contact!" or somthing...but there def. was an undertone of "im seeing more than just Kara" in his voice/inflection.

[DeltaWhiskey]

Does anyone have the script for when he sights Kara in the clouds? I think he says somthing to the effect of "Contact!" or somthing...but there def. was an undertone of "im seeing more than just Kara" in his voice/inflection.

I definitely agree on the ambiguity note (previous post), and that they did likely show the shot of it from (near) Lee's perspective for a reason. But I still do not think that he saw it. He would have been very strenuous in reporting it. It was more than "Kara was right, it really is there." If he saw it, it was a "There's the Raider, we have to jump out of here. NOW!" situation. If the transmission was garbled, he would have repeated it until it was copied. It would have been absolutely imperative that he report it clearly.

It may or may not have been there, but he did not see it.

[DaDornta]

Alright guys, I paused and did a screen capture of this specific moment of "Malestrom"

Lee says and I quote (im watching/pausing the EP)

"God's damn where are you?!"

(lee looks left/right..)

and this is the next scene...a "phantom" ship...



Anyone? ...

[DaDornta]

Take as you will the evidence of a third person shot.

Wicked, valid point my friend!!!

It's the 3rd person vantage that I am all about...

WHY were we left seeing a 3rd person perspective on this entire scene?

Why were we never actually "clear" on Kara's death...??

I think the writers want us to do exactly what i'm doing right now...anal-izing each and every moment of footage and script to deterimine their motives/future plans...

[DaDornta]

Lee says "Visual!...Visual! .... okay..."

And this is what we see:



Do we as the audience see "more" than Lee does at this moment?

[the fifth man]

TPTB of this show must be loving this. If they look at these forums at all, they're probably laughing their as*** off. We're all scrambling to find answers just like they want us to.

Personally, I feel the Raider at the end of the episode was real. And I think we'll definitely be hearing from Starbuck again next season.

[Marauder359]

Do we as the audience see "more" than Lee does at this moment?

As has been pointed out, yes, I definitely think so... If he had seen a Cylon the primary importance wasn't that Starbuck isn't nuts, it's that the fleet has been made and they need to get the frak out of there. Sure, Starbuck was still important, but if there's one thing we've seen, it's that these people can keep their heads. Because she was going in doesn't mean he wouldn't have saved the fleet if he saw an enemy contact.

But it really doesn't matter if Lee saw it. I think he clearly didn't based on the non-evidence. Had he seen it, he would've reported it and Galactica would've been prepping for a jump, not planning to send out rescue raptors.

I just don't see why we'd see the Cylon from a 3rd person perspective if it weren't real.

[Nero]

I've just rewatched the episode and from Kara's point of view it's a bullet from the Raider which impacts her canopy. if you watch it in slow motion you see multiple shots incoming from the Raider and one impacts before the Raider flies off.

The question is if Kara was imagining that or not.

[apollo123]

Unless Ron Moore is playing with us, I don't think the raider really existed. It was all in Kara's mind and she really is dead, at least her physical body. Whether she returns as Cylon or some other form, we can only guess at this point. But rest assured she will return in some form or another. Because if this is really the last time we see Starbuck on BSG, that just would be fraked up and I would be done with this show.